Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Donw]

On 23/11/2020 at 19:46, Mikkel said:

 

Thanks Guy, that sounds like a good excuse to have a look through the books.

 

 

Good idea, thanks Don. The photo I am using shows a load of pit props, but that doesn't seem so suitable for Wiltshire. I was aiming for a load of full beer barrels. Let's say it's stout, that'll be heavy 

 

They used to sell a Beer called London Heavy I think it was Courage brewery.  A load of beer barrels sound right. 

 

Don

[Donw]

On 23/11/2020 at 20:21, Northroader said:

Your carthorse will like the idea.(one of the Wadworths nags)

 

For a short while my great grandfather was a milkman until he had to attend a funeral and the foreman had to do his round. At the end of the round the horse stopped at the pub and wouldn't move until one of the regulars seeing the horse brought his usual pint of mild out. Once he had his drink he trotted back to the dairy. End of job for Great Grandad.

Don

 

[Dave John]

Some good photos there Mikkel. 

 

The capstan is interesting , I wonder if it had the dual purpose of shunting and helping handle the barges ?

 

Thats an impressive bath tub chained on the bolster wagon.  Well, dunno what it actually is, but it looks like a bathtub. 

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, Dave John said:

Some good photos there Mikkel. 

 

The capstan is interesting , I wonder if it had the dual purpose of shunting and helping handle the barges ?

 

Thats an impressive bath tub chained on the bolster wagon.  Well, dunno what it actually is, but it looks like a bathtub. 

 

 

I believe that might be an open condenser for a small textile mill engine. My other guess would be a sugar melting vat for a hard candy (Rock candy I believe is the European term) factory.

[Schooner]

 

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

captions say "c. 1898"

...as does the NRM, which holds the originals as part of its Bow Locomotive Works collection, but you're right to be sceptical 

 

The date for the Poplar Dock photos is almost certainly the 5th April, 1894, the day on which a photographer was sent to document the North London Railway's Poplar Dock, according to the GNRS. This goes some way to explaining the earlier livery on the GNR wagons.

 

Other images of the Midland at their Poplar Dock were, I believe, taken separately.

 

Glad they've been of use, a wonderful resource

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Schooner said:

Other images of the Midland at their Poplar Dock were, I believe, taken separately.

 

The Derby Registers list two sets of official photos taken at Poplar, DY 1790-1797, originally taken in 1898 but with several replaced by photos taken in September 1922, and a set of completely new panoramic views taken on 12 September 1922, DY 12724-12733. (Presumably the replacements for the 1898 views were taken on the same day. The next day the photographer was at Victoria Dock.)

[Mikkel]

 

21 hours ago, Donw said:

 

For a short while my great grandfather was a milkman until he had to attend a funeral and the foreman had to do his round. At the end of the round the horse stopped at the pub and wouldn't move until one of the regulars seeing the horse brought his usual pint of mild out. Once he had his drink he trotted back to the dairy. End of job for Great Grandad.

Don

 

 

Maybe that explains this:

 

Getty Images, embedding permitted. 

 

Or maybe it's just the LMS 

[Craigw]

Mikkel,

 

Apart from everything on your thread (!), I was very interested to see your post on "saving" the Mousa Models GN wagon. I have several LNWR wagons that have warped in three planes - sides and ends bowed in, a twist in the body and the floor warped as well. In my opinion they are beyond redemption. 

 

While you have corrected all the bowing, the great concern I have is with the stability of the materials that have been used. If yours had distorted in this manner, my concern is that it will happen again. I know that I would be more than a little bit p****** to find a wagon I straightened up subsequently warped after completion.

 

Some of the materials do appear stable but others are less so and it seems to be a bit of an expensive lottery to find which you have!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[MrWolf]

Definitely a case of only time will tell.

 

Unless we play it safe and only make replicas of early Tri-ang vehicles? 

[Mikkel]

Yes, there does seem to be an element of uncertainty!

 

I did the same with a resin LSWR one-planker from Gramodels back in 2015.  It began like this:

 

 

 

I straightened it out using the same method as above (the project is described here) , with this result:

 

 

It still looks like that, but I suppose 5 years is a short time for the railway modeller - and as has been said, materials differ.

 

I wonder how the various home-printed 3D materials would react to the hot water and pressure method. I have been given a few wagon bodies that could also do with straightening out. 

 

[Donw]

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

Maybe that explains this:

 

Getty Images, embedding permitted. 

 

Or maybe it's just the LMS 

 

Dont tell someone had excavated a big hole and horse fell in, it is still there in the harness.

 

THere must be something about horses and my ancestors. My maternal grandfather had problems finding work after WW1 he had lost one eye and had other injuries. desperate to feed his family he lied about his experience with horses and got a job driving a four horse cart. He said I may have known nothing but the lead horse knew what to do. I gave a tug this or that side to turn but the horse did the real job of steering.

Don

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

 

Dont tell someone had excavated a big hole and horse fell in, it is still there in the harness.

 

THere must be something about horses and my ancestors. My maternal grandfather had problems finding work after WW1 he had lost one eye and had other injuries. desperate to feed his family he lied about his experience with horses and got a job driving a four horse cart. He said I may have known nothing but the lead horse knew what to do. I gave a tug this or that side to turn but the horse did the real job of steering.

Don

 

Horses were much better for milk deliveries than a milk float or van. The delivery man did not need to get on and off, the horse just moved along between houses.

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, Donw said:

 

Dont tell someone had excavated a big hole and horse fell in, it is still there in the harness.

 

 

Don

Fortunately not. There is no hole and the shafts can be seen laying flat on the pavement. How the cart got into that position is anybody's guess.

[kitpw]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Horses were much better for milk deliveries than a milk float or van. The delivery man did not need to get on and off, the horse just moved along between houses.

In the 1930s - so my father told us - my grandfather's parrot very quickly learned to mimic the milkman's "move on" instruction to his horse, issuing the instruction just as the milkman arrived at the back door with the milk.  The horse did as it was told and moved on, leaving the milkman running to catch up.

 

Kit PW

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

[Simond]

some ten years back, on holiday in Normandy, MrsD suggested that we hired a horse & cart for a promenade en campagne.  We both speak reasonable French and have ridden since childhood,  I had, once, driven a buggy under supervision, so this sounded like a great way to spend a lazy afternoon, but it rapidly became clear that this was us, the friends & family, a largeish 4 wheel flatbed, and the 'orse.

 

Following the directions read out by Madame, I proceeded, the horse no more than suggested that we were not following his accustomed route.  That we had gone the wrong way became quite obvious within another 5 minutes or so. 

 

Have you ever tried to turn one of these things around?

 

The 'orse was the sensible kind; we found a driveway, and executed a very neat u turn in the otherwise very narrow lane, and then regained our route with no further difficulty.   I reckon that even the Russian judge would have given us decent points for artistic merit.

 

I imagined the 'orse having a chat with the farmer later in the evening...  "blooming tourists!  where'd you get that shower then?  Havent got a clue!  Foreign?  yeah, thought they talked a bit funny...  No, 'e drove on the right, must have been 'ere before..."

 

 

[Simond]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Fortunately not. There is no hole and the shafts can be seen laying flat on the pavement. How the cart got into that position is anybody's guess.

 

There is a chain on the rear wheel, which presumably serves as a handbrake, thought it appears a little on the light side for such a duty.  It seems unlikely that the wagon careered down the hill with one wheel chained.  Perhaps applied after the horse had bolted, so to speak. 

 

Indeed, the Getty caption reads;

 

Upturned Cart
17th September 1934: People examine an upturned cart in Haymarket, London. The railway cart and horse was delivering goods when the horse took fright and the accident happened. (Photo by E. Phillips/Fox Photos/Getty Images)

 

Still doesn't explain where the horse is (hopefully not in the hairdressers or the cigar shop, or under whatever was in the cart) or how the cart flipped up like that.  Looks like a railway servant's cap on the chap behind the fellow with the suitcase.

 

loads more on Getty.  very interesting site.

 

atb

Simon

[PhilJ W]

This could be a possible explanation. The horse had escaped the shafts which then dropped to the road surface. However the cart kept moving pushing the empty shafts ahead of itself until the shafts hit a solid object. The momentum of the cart then tipped the cart forwards.

[MrWolf]

8 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

This could be a possible explanation. The horse had escaped the shafts which then dropped to the road surface. However the cart kept moving pushing the empty shafts ahead of itself until the shafts hit a solid object. The momentum of the cart then tipped the cart forwards.

 

That sounds very plausible, you don't have to be showing off at Badminton horse trials to have an impressive pile up. I hope that the driver bailed out, otherwise he would have been buried by whatever was in the cart. Ratchet straps? What are they?

[Compound2632]

Horse was drunk in charge.

[MrWolf]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Horse was drunk in charge.

 

More like drunk and charged...

[Mikkel]

Superb horse tales! 

 

Tony Atkins' stories about GWR road vehicle accidents are more sombre (GWR Goods Cartage Vol 2, p.200). One of them goes:

 

"In Pontypridd there was a downwards hill leaving the goods depot. At the top of the descent a dray horse took fright. The driver was standing on the shafts when the horse jumped forward, causing him to loose balance and fall off. The horse continued at a gallop, and its load of iron bars dropped off owing to the jolting of the vehicle which further frightened the animal, who raced on through the town on the wrong side of the road. The back legs of the horse were grazed and the undercarriage of the dray was broken."

 

That aligns well with @PhilJ W's scenario for the overturned LMS cart above.  

 

LMS (and MR?) modellers, note this livery/numbering detail from the photo of the overturned cart above:

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Came across a photo today which had these part-built vans in the background (crop). Thought it was an interesting scene.

 

 

It's at Swindon works in 1911. Looking at the  wagon diagram index, I suppose they could be V11s (75 built 1905-1911) or the far more numerous V12 vans (2500+ built 1907-1912), or something else entirely!  EDIT: Nope, the bracing doesn't match. Mink Bs maybe, with that X in the middle?

 

Meanwhile, the 2- and 3-plankers are done (details in the blog).

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Mikkel

[Simond]

Isn’t it extraordinary?  The moment I saw you picture, I knew it was from ABT and recalled it instantly.  I’d never noticed the half built vans in the background.

 

bear, what bear?

 

cheers

Simon

 

(the “bear” refers to a classic psychology experiment in which the vast majority of the audience of a very dramatic scene entirely failed to notice a completely incongruous actor-dressed-as-a-bear in the background.  I’ll try to find a reference.  I think he may have been juggling)

[Mikkel]

ABT, not sure what that is Simon?

[Simond]

A picture is, as they say...

 

 

 

(your picture came from elsewhere as the lamp isn’t visible in the ABT version, but it’s plate 4 on page 8 in this esteemed volume)

Edited December 18, 2020 by Simond