RMweb Gold sjrixon Posted April 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2015 As I'm of the younger generation, by knowledge of Steam railways is all from preserved lines. But I love looking at and understanding how thinks were operated. The thread on a coach for a branch line has been a great read and seeing how things were operated.. Which got me thinking.. My main rakes of coaches have always run with a guards coach at each end. Then when they travel either way, one is at the end. is this prototypical? Could a smaller rake have one in the middle? Maybe because you don't need as much luggage space? What about a small 2 coach train (That isn't a B set). Would you only have one guards coach, but then on the return leg the coach would be at the 'wrong end'? I guess if there was a slip coach, that confuses things? Would an express ever stop and a coach could be removed to then travel on a branch line? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The answer "it depends" is not altogether helpful so here goes. Many loco hauled trains had guard's and luggage accommodation at each end. Rather fewer had only one guard's van and this was often but not always found in the middle of the train. The aim would always have been to provide sufficient accommodation for the traffic on offer without carrying too much fresh air about. This objective does not seem to be at all widespread on today's railway, which is probably down to the way that rolling stock is provided and funded. In the good old days there was ample rolling stock available to meet demand, even if some of it only moved on a few days each year - think summer Saturdays and seaside resorts, for example. Today the railway is based on the fixed formation train, which by definition is inflexible. There are real examples to meet all sorts of scenario. The Atlantic Coast Express dropped off portions for most of the Southern's branch lines in Devon and Cornwall. Many of these portions comprised one coach, a brake composite. It was normal for the through coach to be attached to the regular branch train but if it needed to travel as a separate train the brake composite provided all necessary accommodation - including standing space in the guard's van if needed! For the last few years of its life the Teign Valley line between Exeter and Heathfield, a not very promising candidate for a bypass of the sea wall, was served by two coach trains with the guard's brake facing inwards. A frequent formation of stopping trains on the London Midland was three non-corridors with the brake in the middle. Towards the end of loco hauled trains on the Metropolitan Widened Lines between Kings Cross and Moorgate the five coach trains were reformed with one brake in the middle because a second brake vehicle provided only six compartments instead of nine. As for the slip coach, this was usually a brake composite with its own guard, who had a special compartment in which he could operate the slip coupling and a brake which he would manipulate skilfully to bring the coach to a stand at the right place. This is going to be an interesting thread ... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Quite often, if services stopped at stations with shorter platforms the brake would be marshalled in the middle of the train, otherwise the brake van would be off the platform end. This was not always restricted to local stopping services, as I seem to remember the Liverpool/Manchester to Harwich service being marshalled this way, although I am not sure which station(s) en-route were the reason for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Here are a couple of examples from the 1938 workings: 11.0 am Paddington to Penzance - Paddington to Plymouth Third Compo - Paddington to Penzance Van third (van leading) Third Compo Dining Car Van Third (van trailing) - Paddington to Newquay Third Van Third (van trailing) - Paddington to Kingsbridge Third Brake Compo (van trailing) 1.25am Crewe to Penzance - Bristol to Plymouth North Road GWR Mail Van 799 GWR Third - Bristol to Penzance GWR Third GWR Compo - Manchester to Penzance LMS Third LMS Van Third LMS Compo LMS Brake Van - Manchester to Cardiff GWR Compo GWR Van Third LMS Brake Van - Liverpool to Cardiff GWR Brake Compo GWR Van Third GWR Brake Compo 12.20pm Cardiff to Brighton - Cardiff to Salisbury (Monday & Saturday only) GWR Third - Cardiff to Salisbury (Saturday only) GWR Third GWR Third - Cardiff to Brighton SR Van Third (van leading) SR Third SR First SR Third SR Van Third (van trailing) Note: in GWR terminology, a van third is what other railways called a brake third and a brake van is a full brake, van being the luggage portion. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 There is some detail of slip coach workings here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/63982-weymouth-slip/ Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold sjrixon Posted April 1, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2015 If it was a Third and a Compo.. Is there no brake? (Great info) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 If it was a Third and a Compo.. Is there no brake? (Great info) Yes, but remember that is just a portion of the train that is dropped in Plymouth (for the first train listed) or picked up in Bristol (second). There is no need for a brake vehicle since there are numerous others in the train and that particular section doesn't go anywhere on its own. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted April 1, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2015 I am pretty sure if you go farther back it was a Board of Trade requirement to have a brake vehicle at each end of the train with the brake compartment outwards, and the a guard to travel in the last vehicle, though I am afraid I can't give you chapter and verse. There are also specific cases in GWR working timetables or Appendices which specify that brake vehicles must be brake end out. But certainly by the end of the 1960s trains were being run with a single brake vehicle in the centre. The Cambridge to Kings Cross services were like this, and I think so were the Liverpool Street services. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold sjrixon Posted April 1, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2015 Would the brake end out be more to keep the consistency of the train rather than any reason of 'braking'? Obviously if a brake is slotted into a train then the passengers are stuck either side of it. It would be an odd effect if a brake end was back to front and the end of a train, it would give a small section isolated from the rest of the train. in that case would you not marshal the coach to the other end so it's behind the loco and the correct way around? How much braking does the coach really do on it's own? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I think the 'brake at each end' dated to before continuous train brakes – mandatory from 1889 – so originally they were to provide braking, even if the train 'broke'. With full train braking installed the BoT still insisted on a brakevan at the end, presumably in case of a rear-end collision – like the modern car's crumple zone! This requirement was dropped sometime in the late 1950s (not sure of the date but definitely in BR days) after which brake compartments tended to appear in the middle of the train rather than the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 It would be an odd effect if a brake end was back to front and the end of a train, it would give a small section isolated from the rest of the train. in that case would you not marshal the coach to the other end so it's behind the loco and the correct way around? I remember travelling on just such a carriage on the WCML sometime during the late 70s. It was a Mk2 BSO at the front of the train and was marshalled with the seats towards the loco. I thought that it would be nice and quiet up there with the guards compartment between me and the rest of the train, and was proved right. I can't remember if there was anyone else in the carriage but me, but if there was it was only one or two in the 32 seats. What was even more exciting, was the lighting was not switched on - which was an awesome experience in a tunnel at 100 mph in the pitch black. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium SR Chris Posted April 1, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2015 It would be an odd effect if a brake end was back to front and the end of a train, it would give a small section isolated from the rest of the train. Although you could walk through the corridor past the van area and Guard's compartment, so it's not really isolated. How much braking does the coach really do on it's own? Just as much as any other coach. The difference with a 'Brake' vehicle is that it has a Guard's compartment with a handbrake. The handbrake can be used to secure a train that is stabled without a locomotive attached. Non-brake coaches do not have handbrakes so they have to be scotched when stabled unless attached to a locomotive or brake vehicle. Perhaps the original choice of the term Handbrake would have been better than Brake? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted April 1, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2015 With vacuum braked stock I think the brake compartment also had a brake setter by means of which the guard could put the brake on on throughout train, for emergency use. Back in the days before continuous brakes there might well be several brake vehicles each with a guard, one being the head guard. They would all have to act when the train needed to stop, in response to a whistle signal from the loco. Company documents would sometimes specify how many. Jonathsan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold sjrixon Posted April 1, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2015 I hadn't realised that most had a corridor to get passed the guard section.. I like the idea of having it in the middle of the train. But as that was later think I can stick with one at each end. I love the idea of 2 coaches been removed from the train and then coupled to another. Would the passengers have been onboard as the coach is re-marshaled to the other train? This would also mean the brake coach just got moved 2 coaches in.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 2, 2015 Dear Sir, Formation of passenger Trains I have found it necessary on many occasions to stress the importance of passenger trains being formed with a brake van or vehicle with a brake compartment leading next to the engine and a vehicle or brake van with brake compartment trailing at the rear, owing to risk of injury to passengers in case of an accident, A collision occurred today on this Region and I am concerned to find that the Regulations shown on Page 109 of the General Appendix (Supplement No. GA27Op) had not been complied with and as a consequence a number of passengers were injured due to the fact that they were travelling in a Van Third which was formed at the rear of the train with compartments trailing. It is essential the the Regulations under notice shall be carried out and I shall be glad if you will again bring this to the notice of Supervisory staff and all others concerned. Please acknowledge receipt. Yours truly (signed) Gilbert Matthews (Operating Superintendent BR WR, July 22nd 1952 On 21 August 1957 a further letter was issued by the Regional Operating Superintendent reminding staff of the 1952 letter and pointing out that in his Report into the collision at Welwyn Garden City the MoT Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways had made reference to the desirability of a reminder being issued. More on this subject will follow but I'm off for my dinner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 2, 2015 So going forwards, and backwards, from my previous post I'll now take things a bit further. By the 1930s it was clearly established taht any passenger train conveying vehicles totalling more than 96 wheels had to have two brakevans (or vehicles with a brake compartment) and that these had to be at the outer ends of the train at its starting point - effectively the WR's GA 27 Op of 1951 continued that policy but it became 'should' instead of 'must'. The wording changed again in 1960 when although the idea of van ends outwards at both ends of the train continued it now became 'as fas as practicable'. And all along an exception was made which allowed published coach working to vary from the general Regulation/Instruction - thus variations could be found although not normally on longer trains but definitely on some short trains with only a few coaches. The 1960 Instruction lasted until 1968 when it finished completely although even before that date exceptions were regularly being made on an individually authorised basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold sjrixon Posted April 3, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 96 wheels? Are we saying a coach has 8? So anything goes for less than 12 coaches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Would the brake end out be more to keep the consistency of the train rather than any reason of 'braking'? Obviously if a brake is slotted into a train then the passengers are stuck either side of it. Anorak moment - there needs to be a distinction between brake - coach with independent brake available to the guard but minimal if any luggage capacity. This is a brake composite. And a Lugagge/van which had the large luggage area available which needed to be securely locked away from temptation, in addition to the guards brake area, especially as parcels were often conveyed as well. Note security bars to luggage space to prevent unauthorised entry. The GWR would often refer to this type as a van third Many GW Luggage/vans did not have a side corridor and would be 'locked' out to prevent through passengers by passengers.Unlike modern trains, it was not always possible to walk through the entire train in GWR days. Trains that had specific sections did not always have the corridor connections 'connected' so that portion could be uncoupled with minimal delay. There would be no reason for passengers to move between coaches unless there was buffet/dining available. As mentioned above, on three coach sets the brake van would often be in the middle as it was the most convenient place to unload as these sets often returned back on the same route. Didcot -Southampton, Cheltenham to Southampton, Bristol - Weymouth had routine workings of fixed stock and it was sensible at the various stops for station staff to know the van would stop in the centre of the platform. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 A brake composite had luggage space, but that was really only for the passengers on that coach - basically the intent was that it could be an independent train of one coach. A van third would carry luggage for passengers in other coaches and would also likely carry parcel traffic. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold sjrixon Posted April 5, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 5, 2015 I'm liking the idea of the middle brake in the 3 car set. Makes a nice rake for the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 5, 2015 96 wheels? Are we saying a coach has 8? So anything goes for less than 12 coaches? The system based on counting wheels (instead of vehicles) goes way back to the days of 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches, and lasted for a very long time. But there were of course coaches with 6 wheel bogies, and also 4 or 6 wheeled vans could be attached to trains and counted towards the total. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 The system based on counting wheels (instead of vehicles) goes way back to the days of 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches, and lasted for a very long time. But there were of course coaches with 6 wheel bogies, and also 4 or 6 wheeled vans could be attached to trains and counted towards the total. Presumably it was a quick way of estimating the weight of the train. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 6, 2015 Presumably it was a quick way of estimating the weight of the train. Adrian And the available brake power (automatic brake, not handbrake). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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