Western Region Working Time Table Question

[Grimly Feendish]

This is a plea for help from the learned members of this site who always amaze me with their knowledge of the workings of the railway system.

 

I've got my grubby mitts on a copy of a 1976 WR WTT. Despite scouring the key pages there are some entries that I don't understand. Some pictures will help to explain...

 

 

In the Timing Column reference row there are some references I don't understand. These are entries like E6, G6 or just a number such as 4. I've maked some in the images below. Could anyone shed any light on this?

 

Cheers,

 

John.

 

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....Timing Loads....I have similar WTTs....will have a look see.

 

The WTTs which I've checked have individual keys to these codes but they seem to mean different things in each different WTT.

 

Dave

Edited April 18, 2015 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[stovepipe]

Timing load references. If you look at (usually) pages 4 and 5 of the WTT you will find a table that gives the maximum load and point to point timings for that reference number. The higher the number the faster the train and the lower the load.

[The Stationmaster]

....Timing Loads....I have similar WTTs....will have a look see.

 

The WTTs which I've checked have individual keys to these codes but they seem to mean different things in each different WTT.

 

Dave

They should be reasonably consistent within a Region but they will differ widely between Regions as everybody seemed to use completely different timing column references!

[Grimly Feendish]

Dave, Stovepipe and SM, thanks for the info. I've scoured the book but only see the following explanations, which don't seem to include these codes. See pic.

 

Would there be another document that would explain them?

 

Thanks,

 

John.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Dave, Stovepipe and SM, thanks for the info. I've scoured the book but only see the following explanations, which don't seem to include these codes. See pic.

 

Would there be another document that would explain them?

 

Thanks,

 

John.

 

wtt3.jpg

The best source of all is the timing reference sheets - i.e. the documents which show the point-to-point (p-p) times for all the Timing Column References although I wonder if they are all contained in one place as freight & passenger timing used to be done by different folk.  I've got some somewhere but I'm not at all sure where as I haven't bothered to look at them for a long while and they are fairly old ones.

[Flood]

The book you need is the British Rail Western Region Diesel Locomotive Loads, Passenger Motorail Parcels & Milk Trains. BR20896/24

 

The Western appear to have used these timing columns until the Westerns were withdrawn in 1977, it may be because of the different characteristics of Diesel Hydraulics.

 

I have a May 1968 copy and the relevant pages are attached below:

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously Class 50s are not included for 1968 but their loads were probably pretty close to those stated for Westerns and Class 47s.

 

The rest of the book has tables for Maximum Loads in Emergency and Maximum Loads with Diesel Hydraulic working on one engine/transmission.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Flood

[Phil Bullock]

Hi John

 

Have a 71-72 WTT for Barnt Green to Awre Junction

 

At the beginning of this there are several tables

 

Point to Point Times - Passenger and Express Parcels trains is the first and is opposite the page you have scanned. This allocates locos to a timimg column reference dependant on load. In mine 6 is the lightest and 1 the heaviest - so for Class 47 6 = 365 tons, 2 = 550 tons (nothing rates heavier than 550 tons, seems to be max probably governed by length of train...)

 

These timing column references then relate to point to point timings in subsequent tables, the heavier train the slower of course.

 

Then we have a similar table for Motorail, freighliner, parcels and express freight trains which uses G1 to G6 for the column timing reference - again class 47 G1 = 400 tons to G6 = 1300 tons - followed by relevant point to point timing tables

 

Then finally H timing column references for parcels and freights - H1 to H4 interestingly these don't specify weight limits in my version.

 

So a 47 on 365 tons passenger 1V61 0700 Derby to Cardiff (Timing column reference 6) is allowed 8 mins from Abbotswood to Ashchurch, on a 600 ton parcels (!) 4V07 02.15 Crewe to Bristol 9.5 mins and on 8V53 Bescot to Stoke Gifford a whacking 19 mins!

 

Hope that helps

 

If tables not in your wtt then as Mike says they must be elsewhere

 

Phil

 

PS Love the moniker - once had a pet goldfish called Grimly Feendish

[Phil Bullock]

Great stuff Flood!!

 

Maximum length of empty milk train = 45

 

28 were bad enough at Trainwest thanks!

 

Phil

[stovepipe]

And in my 1970 WR WTT, the timing information appears between the Explanation of References, and Four-Character Train Identification System. I have no E6 timimng load but I do have 7 and G6 timing refernces.

 

WTT1970 by

WTT1970a

Edited April 19, 2015 by stovepipe

[The Stationmaster]

The book you need is the British Rail Western Region Diesel Locomotive Loads, Passenger Motorail Parcels & Milk Trains. BR20896/24

 

The Western appear to have used these timing columns until the Westerns were withdrawn in 1977, it may be because of the different characteristics of Diesel Hydraulics.

 

 

We used Timing Column References right up until the end of the Western Region in 1992 and we carried on using them after we were sectorised in that year (and indeed they carried ion into Railtrack days).  But by the 1980s we were no longer using references like some of those seen in the abocve posts (although DMU was used as a timing column reference until all the Modernisation Plan units were eliminated.

 

As has been shown timings were at one time carried in the WTTs on the Western but this ceased to bring the Region into line with others although I'm not quite sure when.  By the 1980s (again I'm not sure of the date) the WR had also moved to a rather more sophisticated Timing Reference system for freights and we used that one right up to the end and it continued into Railtrack days.  It was based on 2 numbers - the first was the maximum speed at which the train was timed, followed by '/' and then a single digit number indicating the planned load against which it was timed (which agreed with the marshalling Instructions load)/  Thus 60/4 indicated a train with a maximum speed of 60 mph and a 'heavy' load - the exact load depending on the booked loco.  This system was used across the board for freights but with some variation for Class 59s although an entirely different system was used for Class 60s which had an individual set of timings for each contract load.

[Grimly Feendish]

The book you need is the British Rail Western Region Diesel Locomotive Loads, Passenger Motorail Parcels & Milk Trains. BR20896/24

 

 

Flood,

 

thanks very much, your post makes things a lot clearer. I shall scour the interwebs for that publication!

 

John,

[Grimly Feendish]

Hi John

 

Have a 71-72 WTT for Barnt Green to Awre Junction

 

At the beginning of this there are several tables

 

Point to Point Times - Passenger and Express Parcels trains is the first and is opposite the page you have scanned. This allocates locos to a timimg column reference dependant on load. In mine 6 is the lightest and 1 the heaviest - so for Class 47 6 = 365 tons, 2 = 550 tons (nothing rates heavier than 550 tons, seems to be max probably governed by length of train...)

 

These timing column references then relate to point to point timings in subsequent tables, the heavier train the slower of course.

 

Then we have a similar table for Motorail, freighliner, parcels and express freight trains which uses G1 to G6 for the column timing reference - again class 47 G1 = 400 tons to G6 = 1300 tons - followed by relevant point to point timing tables

 

Then finally H timing column references for parcels and freights - H1 to H4 interestingly these don't specify weight limits in my version.

 

So a 47 on 365 tons passenger 1V61 0700 Derby to Cardiff (Timing column reference 6) is allowed 8 mins from Abbotswood to Ashchurch, on a 600 ton parcels (!) 4V07 02.15 Crewe to Bristol 9.5 mins and on 8V53 Bescot to Stoke Gifford a whacking 19 mins!

 

Hope that helps

 

Hi Phil,

 

It certainly does help. With the information from Flood, Mike and yourself I think I understand things now.

 

Cheers,

 

John.

[Grimly Feendish]

PS Love the moniker - once had a pet goldfish called Grimly Feendish

It was either that or Baby Face Finlayson 

 

Great name for a goldfish BTW!

 

John.

[Grimly Feendish]

And in my 1970 WR WTT, the timing information appears between the Explanation of References, and Four-Character Train Identification System. I have no E6 timimng load but I do have 7 and G6 timing refernces.

 

 

Stovepipe,

 

Thanks for this, it's very interesting.

 

A question on the E6 timing. I'm assuming that this 'E' is not the same 'E' in the key that talks of Examinations?

 

Thanks,

 

John.

[diyceejay]

Great information people - can anybody help with my WTT of 1982 with the following references:

D350, D385, D490, D315 etc?

From the above info I'm guessing that this WTT just puts the max weight allowed rather than cross referencing a code for timings?

And while I understand the reference in the WTT for D2 being a DMU of various combinations, they all include 2 motor coaches I see. So what was the story with the single car Class 121?

With thanks

Christopher

Edited January 29, 2022 by diyceejay
addition to query

[BR traction instructor]

Loco hauled max loads that allow the timings shown to be maintained with the booked traction.

 

BeRTIe

Edited January 29, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, diyceejay said:

Great information people - can anybody help with my WTT of 1982 with the following references:

D350, D385, D490, D315 etc?

From the above info I'm guessing that this WTT just puts the max weight allowed rather than cross referencing a code for timings?

And while I understand the reference in the WTT for D2 being a DMU of various combinations, they all include 2 motor coaches I see. So what was the story with the single car Class 121?

With thanks

Christopher

Exactly so - the numbers are the maximum permitted tonnage for that train to maintain its booked timings and in some respects they do correspond with the previous Timing Column reference numbers.  

 

But the advantage of quoting  the tonnage is that it makes it far simpler for anybody with a Passenger Loads Book to see what class of loco would be needed to maintain time with that load - hence the loco diagrammer will know what he needs as a minimum to work that train, rolling stock diagrammers (and subsequently Train Offices planning any additional vehicles) will know what tonnage they have work to when planning the formation or additional vehicles without the need for retiming,  Equally of course unless the loco diagrams can be altered if additional vehicles take the train over booked load it would have to be retimed.

 

It was always far simpler to work with tonnages rather than anything else when planning services and of course it would also provide a guide to Controllers if anything had to be altered at short notice (very handy for writing on the Control Office train card 'overload, time lost in running' or 'booked class of loco not available, time lost in running'.

 

I can't remember anything about the DMU timing columns and it's a very long time sinceI did a bit of Special Traffic DMU timing but I might have some information tucked away somewhere - possibly.  DMU timings, certainly on the WR, incidentally were slightly different from loco hauled timings because they had built-in Recovery Time rather than showing it separately and it was spread into the point-to-point times over various parts of the route Thus in some cases on longer workings a DMU could make a marginal gain on booked time over its journey provided there were no Temporary Restrictions of Speed (TROS) in force.  With loco hauled passenger trains they should gain what was shown in Recovery Time on the various parts of their journey if there was no TROS in force although that would not total over the length of the journey because of having to leave any intermediate stops punctually or being ahead of their booked path and encountering adverse signals.