Hornby T9 broken motor housing retainer

[adb968008]

need to add the Limited edition Hornby R2892 LSWR T9  number 120 in LSWR Green from the collectors club to the list of mazak rot failures.

 

I gave it a spin the other day... all I could hear spinning was the motor. 

When I removed the body, the motor retainer fell out in a separate corroded lump.

 

Ive gone the glue route to fix it, I glued the motor into the chassis, but found the gear tries to lift from the box causing the spin again.

so then I filed the retainer gently (on the sides which were bowing out) and glued the edges a little and refitted, this is holding the gear box down again.

 

 

So far so good, but I can see the cracks throughout the housing, so I think at the right moment I may buy a new T9, swap the chassis / wheels with this one (I know thats expensive) but as to be down a limited edition is a bit unpleasant, but fitting another secondhand chassis older chassis is asking for the same issue twice !

 

what worries me is what awaits down the road, when loco prices are reaching towards the £200, what will happen in 5 years if mazak turns out to be the achilles heel of the hobby and todays stuff starts to fall apart.

Edited April 1, 2016 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...what worries me is what awaits down the road, when loco prices are reaching towards the £200, what will happen in 5 years if mazak turns out to be the achilles heel of the hobby and todays stuff starts to fall apart.

 It is reasonable to extrapolate from present performance to the future. Past 15 years of 'Chinese' OO manufacture have seen production batches of the Bachmann N, Heljan 47, Hornby Brush 2 and T9, definitely have a significant number of failures ascribable to mazak rot. That's from how many production batches of castings for runs of models various? (I don't have a way to estimate, not knowing how much mazak is typically melted for a production batch of castings.) If the past rate of production batches is maintained, it would be reasonable to expect 1 to 2 incidents in the 2016 - 2020 period.

 

Wet finger estimate, a below 0.1% risk of any particular model having mazak rot. (And perhaps they are all going to be SR prototype steamers and Brush diesels?)

[adb968008]

It is reasonable to extrapolate from present performance to the future. Past 15 years of 'Chinese' OO manufacture have seen production batches of the Bachmann N, Heljan 47, Hornby Brush 2 and T9, definitely have a significant number of failures ascribable to mazak rot. That's from how many production batches of castings for runs of models various? (I don't have a way to estimate, not knowing how much mazak is typically melted for a production batch of castings.) If the past rate of production batches is maintained, it would be reasonable to expect 1 to 2 incidents in the 2016 - 2020 period.

 

Wet finger estimate, a below 0.1% risk of any particular model having mazak rot. (And perhaps they are all going to be SR prototype steamers and Brush diesels?)

If it's Brush diesels that's ok. :-)

 

But If it was to be the A4 Great Gathering set... That would hurt every one of my senses.

 

Quoting Rumsfeld... It's a known Unknown.

[darren01]

My T9 and my Father's 28xx have done the same thing, looks like they will be both going back to Hornby to get fixed, unless i can get the parts from some where?.

Darren

[BR60103]

A dampening thought:

If the mazak is contaminated, might it not continue to disintegrate after the bits are glued together?

I think my case of ZinkPest (a 50+ year old Rivarossi) is still crumbling.

[Simonfj48]

 

Due to losing my original T9 which was sent for repair (in 2014!!!) Hornby, after a threat of legal action found me another and sent it. This when tested ran as badly as the first - as the replacement was delivered in November 2015 it remained in its box for a variety of reasons until last Tuesday when I took it along to a friend for a check up, yes it runs badly. When the body was removed the chassis fell into 3 parts having been held in place with a plastic tape like bodge up inside the body.

 

This was not a loco supplied by a retailer but direct from Hornby.

 

All of you who are repairing your own Locos are supporting Hornby's own poor manufacturing. If this was a Washing Machine or a Motor Car it would have a product recall. Under the sale of goods act Hornby are liable for this shambles which in effect all those who repair the item are condoning. I am still awaiting a response from the so called 'service desk' at Hornby so will say no more at the moment but I am not ruling out legal action. These may be 'toys' to some people but they are sold as expensive scale models which as consumers we have rights to expect to be in a fit condition for use.

[bertiedog]

I think the problem is not actual mazak rot, which is lead contamination, as it makes white lead oxide dust that breaks the metal, the actual problem is the design of the part, the break is at a weak point in the casting, and during assembly the part gets stressed and breaks along the weakest part. The granular appearance is not quite like prop rot, it is due to stress.

 

The solution is twofold, the motor needs to be gripped, and glue will do it, and then a plate made that matches the shape of the top of the gear surround to act as the top retainer, and top part of the bearing.

 

A flat piece of 16th brass sawn and filed to shape would do it, and then drill through into the chassis and screw on with 12 ba screws, However if this is too complex to manage, it could very carefully be glued as well, as long as none gets on the gear shaft.

 

I have not had my T9 apart yet, no problems, but the M7 has a very similar cover that acts as the top of the bearing. It is held down by a screw, and the hole formed in the end acts as a motor clamp, but the size of the gripped part does not allow the top to properly sit on the top to retain the shaft. I had to file out the hole so that the cover rested on the shaft as designed, then slip the motor into the hole with out any stress on it.

A touch of rubber adhesive stops any vibration.

 

This sort of issue comes up time and time again with far eastern productions, no real liaison with the factory on a day to day basis to correct problems in the design.

 

The Chinese simply make what is ordered and if the design is wrong, then they are not really to blame. Add in slightly heavy handed assembly and you have these problems turn up.

 

We made scientific instruments and these were UK designed and built, and at every stage in production any problems were dealt with on the spot. We were faced with cheaper goods from the FE, but customers who tried them reported many small issues that plagued them, some minor things that we would have picked up on and corrected. They build in quick batches and then move on to other items, and this also causes the problems with back up and spares, Hornby do not order enough spares, and cannot quickly order more to cure problems.

 

On one of our measuring instruments we got a call for spares for one made in the 1940's and had the parts in the post 2 days later. The customer admitted he had Japanese made gear that sat unused as there were no spares made to fit.

 

It is about time all the companies that use FE production to save costs realise that spares and service remain as vital as ever.

 

Stephen

Edited April 28, 2016 by bertiedog

[micklner]

Would it be viable to get someone "in the know" to cast a new one in resin or would it no have enough strength?

[bertiedog]

Would it be viable to get someone "in the know" to cast a new one in resin or would it no have enough strength?

It would be perfectly all right to get one made by 3D printing, but I have none, although thoughts are moving that way! The plastic would act as the retainer over the shaft, and no real risk of snapping at the corners.

This sort of part suits 3D printing down to the ground, it could even be made in black material.

 

If it is glued together then a silicon mould or vinyl mould could be made, and casts done in resin, with brass wires inside to act as reinforcing.

The longest way would be to hack it out of brass on a milling machine, or even set up a CNC mill to machine it. Again no CNC myself, so a long session machinery wise!

 

It would also be possible to make it out of brass sheet, sawn and bent to the shapes and soldered together then filed to finished size.

 

Stephen

Edited April 28, 2016 by bertiedog

[Dad]

I emailed Hornby about this a few weeks ago, and yesterday received the following reply: 

 

Thank you for your email, please send in the loco to the address below with your contact and address details
along with a summary of the issue.

Repairs have the part but cannot send it out so the loco will need to come into us.

Case XXXXX
Hornby/DS
Unit 5-10 Sparrow Way
Lakesview Int Bus Park
Hersden
CT3 4JH

Yours Sincerely
Simon Watkins
Customer Care

Edited April 29, 2016 by Dad

[number6]

Waiting in vain for someone to 3d print something...

 

There is little hope that Hornby will replace the retainer in my version as the chassis was bought off ebay and hacked under a new loco. And then it broke... As I tried to fix the part it crumbled into smaller and smaller pieces. I have now fashioned a strip of brass that sits over the motor and the top of the gear housing. The hardest part is finding somewhere to attached it or screw it down. I am loath to permanently glue it down as something is bound to go wrong.

 

I've used lots of recent Hornby chassis for various remotor projects over the years and this one has been the most tricky to adapt. Probably a pinnacle of design complexity. As a contrast I remotored an M7 chassis with a Yashima motor and this works in a similar principle it is rough and ready but works really well... 

 

[bertiedog]

If the part crumbled as in the last post, then it is Mazak rot at work, not just a stress break. At least Hornby have addressed it by the sound of the letter received in the other posting.

 

I have checked mine and it is in one piece a the moment, but I may make a brass replacement to be sure.

 

It might also pay to enlarge the bearing slots for the gear shaft, and fit bronze or brass bearing in, the modified cover retaining them in place.

 

Lets hope the main chassis castings are not rotting as well, although if the metal was contaminated with lead at the same time as the cover, then it should be showing by now. Hopefully it is confined to the cover castings only.

 

 

Stephen.

[number6]

I think its a bit of both. The wrong material and poor design - there is a very thin bits of metal connecting between the bed for the motor and the top of the gear housing -  which is very easy to break. If snugly held inside the loco it is probably going to be okay. Possibly packing the inside of the logo body with some foam [my other magic material being Heljan packaging foam] it might all hold together even when snapped. When out of the loco any stress on it means its likely to snap. 

[number6]

Hallelujah!

Peters Spares:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peters-Spares-PS61-Replacement-Hornby-T9-Motor-Mount-/322089744372?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

[bertiedog]

Looks a good replacement, may get one and replace anyway to be sure of no problems in future.

Stephen

[trustytrev]

Hello,

        I had a similar problem with a rebuilt Patriot I bought on ebay.Parts to retain the motor unavailable and the mounting lugs for the decoder plate disintegrating. I lashed it together with motor mountings for a black five combined with copper winding wire to tie the motor down and keep it in mesh. It could be called a right lash up. I think Hornby would go into melt down if it had to address this issue as it appears to affect models right across the range that use this metal in construction.

Maybe we could start a post to judge how may peoples models this effects.Considering the prices of current models manufactured by Hornby it is rather a shocking state of affairs.

trustytrev.

[cobach47]

if you check the service sheet you will notice the chasis block has no number that means it is not available as a spare part

 

i have been told by my friend with the broken T9 that Hornby will be issuing a new T9 but can't confirm at the moment

[number6]

Got mine from Peters Spares in the post the other day - nicely engineered brass replacement. Job done.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I have now fashioned a strip of brass that sits over the motor and the top of the gear housing. The hardest part is finding somewhere to attached it or screw it down. I am loath to permanently glue it down as something is bound to go wrong...

 I use wet blobs of Evostick - the full strength solvent sniffer's delight, accept no substitutes - once I have a brace such as you have installed to positively hold the motor in the right position. Give the adhesive a good 48 hours solvent evaporating time in a warm place like a linen cupboard, before using the model. Typically this alone is strong enough to hold the motor in place permanently; removing the motor should that ever be necessary for salvage or to replace brushes is only a matter of slicing into the adhesive with a scalpel blade, several passes going succesively deeper until it is cut through.

[cobach47]

i have offered to repair the chassis on my friends T9, i think the motor housing can be done but the main problem is the crumbling chassis extention that the bogie fits to. It has all the tensile strength

 

of a corn flake ! - when i was trying to find out how it was located it fell apart in my hand. The basic design was so flawed it never had a chance - seems the chassis has to rely on the body to hold it all

 

together !  A scratchbuilt plastic front frame extension may be the answer. As many of you will be trying superglue for this repair it helps with porous surfaces to dampen the areas to be glued.

[John M Upton]

Completely unaware of these reported problems with the T9's, I just took out my 30119 Ltd Edition which has been sitting awaiting entry into service for many years, put it on the track, lots of whirring and no movement.

 

Opened it up and not only has the part over the worm gear broken off but so has the plate at the back of the motor as well.

 

Can't decide whether to effect a repair or bung the whole lot as spares or repair on Ebay as looking at it is depressing.

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by John M Upton

[bertiedog]

That's so disappointing both bits have gone, but a glued repair will work, but there may be other Mazak rot as well in there. Maybe off to Hornby as it is painfully obvious where the problem has come from.

The only permanent reliable cure is a brass chassis etc.

 

Stephen

[John M Upton]

I might try dropping Hornby a line.  It is probably to old to come under any warranty but it may be worth a try.

[adb968008]

I had the same issue, with the same model.

 

Peter's spares sell the motor retainer in Brass (I like how innovative Peter's spares have been in identifying frequently needed parts that aren't supplied by the OEM and so do it themselves - i've got a set of axles for putting new life in a Bachmann 04 currently on the shelf).

 

It's a like for like replacement (just cut off the brass excess).

To be sure (if the back retainer has gone) glue the motor in, but I found the Brass retainer is very strong and holds the motor / gear tower even without the back part.

 

Ive done 2 like this now, and no further problems (LSWR 120 was the other), nowt like a crumbling limited edition eh ?

 

Costs £9.60, takes about 2 hours, indeed I'm thinking to hunt a 3rd cheap (in Black or SR green) on ebay now I'm on a roll, looking on Peters Spares ebay history looks like they've cleared more than 100+ of these !!!

 

http://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps61-replacement-Hornby-t9-motor-mount.ir

Edited January 8, 2017 by adb968008

[D.Platt]

I have had the same problem with the Royal Scott but that also suffered from a chassis block fractured under the gear axle,when Hornby got in contact with me the model was out of production and they said they had searched for a replacement but no luck !! So when I saw this years releases announced I e-mailed Hornby to ask if they would honour what they promised two years ago , Waiting for there reply ,but not holding my breath !!!!