Campaman Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Hi I am currently making some B6 turnouts using Templot templates. I am building to 00BF using code 75BH rail using flexible switches. What I would like to know is how many sleepers should I leave un-soldered from the rail tips? Also what is the relevance of the stock guage marking line opposite the end of planing line? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2015 What I would like to know is how many sleepers should I leave un-soldered from the rail tips? Hi, With the blade clipped* to the stock rail in the closed position, solder one timber at a time working towards the blade tips, testing as you go after each one. For 00-BF, when the blade tip is open by the thickness of a 20p coin (1.75mm) you need a clear 1.3mm all along behind the open blade. For this to work, you need to maintain maximum stiffness at the tip when filing the blade planing. Leave the rail foot intact on the inside. If you have made the blade planing a bit too flexible, you may need to increase the opening to say 2mm (a 2p coin). (For 00-SF (and EM) that clearance needs to be only 1.0mm all along (use the crossing flangeway gauge shim), so you can solder a bit closer to the tips in 00-SF than in 00-BF. This assumes that you have used 16.2mm gauge for the switch section. If you have widened the switch section to 16.5mm as some users like to do, the clearance should be 1.3mm as for 00-BF.) Also what is the relevance of the stock gauge marking line opposite the end of planing line? The stock gauge is used in setting the position of the diverging stock rail, before fitting the blades. After making the bend in the stock rail at the "set" position, the distance between the stock rails at the "stock gauge" position should be one rail-width greater than the track gauge. So for 00-BF (16.5mm gauge) with scale bullhead rail (0.9mm wide), the stock gauge between the rails is 16.5 + 0.9 = 17.4mm. Adjust the angle of the set bend until this is achieved. (For 00-SF at 16.2mm through the switches, it is 17.1mm.) Then when filing and fitting the blades, the stock gauge position shows where the rails should begin to diverge when the blade is clipped to the stock rail. This helps in filing the correct planing angle on the blade. More about the stock gauge here: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm#split_switch *rail clips are easily bent up from a paper clip. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campaman Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Thanks Martyn Soldering iron out when I get home and Digital Caliper for the stock gauge. Cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Hi, Solder one at a time working towards the blade tips, testing as you go. For 00-BF, when the blade tip is open by the thickness of a 20p coin (1.75mm) you need a clear 1.3mm all along behind the open blade. For this to work, you need to maintain maximum stiffness at the tip when filing the blade planing. Leave the rail foot intact on the inside. If you have made the blade planing a bit too flexible, you may need to increase the opening to say 2mm (a 2p coin). (For 00-SF that clearance needs to be only 1.0mm all along (use the crossing flangeway gauge shim), so you can solder a bit closer to the tips in 00-SF than in 00-BF. This assumes that you have used 16.2mm gauge for the switch section. If you have widened the switch section to 16.5mm as some users like to do, the clearance should be 1.3mm as for 00-BF.) The stock gauge is used in setting the position of the diverging stock rail, before fitting the blades. After making the bend in the stock rail at the "set" position, the distance between the stock rails at the "stock gauge" position should be one rail-width greater than the track gauge. So for 00-BF (16.5mm gauge) with scale bullhead rail (0.9mm wide), the stock gauge between the rails is 16.5 + 0.9 = 17.4mm. Adjust the angle of the set bend until this is achieved. (For 00-SF at 16.2mm through the switches, it is 17.1mm.) Then when filing and fitting the blades, the stock gauge position shows where the rails should begin to diverge when the blade is clipped to the stock rail. This helps in filing the correct planing angle on the blade. More about the stock gauge here: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm#split_switch regards, Martin. I smell a plug. . . Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I smell a plug. . . Andy You might want to get your olfactory system investigated. Martin has no commercial interest in Templot. It's free. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2015 I smell a plug. . . Hi Andy, Loose-heel bullhead switches haven't been used for renewals in running lines in the UK for the best part of a century. Apart from a few specialised cases, such as in GWR slips. The old pre-group designs remained in yards and sidings until the end of the traditional railway, but it would be hard to find any now. Light-rail flat-bottom loose-heel switches are quite common for narrow-gauge, industrial and light railway use, but have never been used for heavy-rail flat-bottom running lines in the UK. They are difficult in model form except for P4, because generally the scale heel offset is less than required for the model flangeway. This means making the switch rail much longer than scale, moving the heel position. You then have a long length of unsupported rail, with only the loose heel fixing to keep it upright. Flexible switches are much easier to model in every way. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I was referring to the OP question being about 16.5 mm 00 and yet the answer included the unsolicited set of alternative measurements for 16.2 mm gauge as well. If y'all don't like seeing challenging questions about gauge narrowing, perhaps you should all try not promoting it in almost every posting about 00 and/or hand laying track. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2015 I was referring to the OP question being about 16.5 mm 00 and yet the answer included the unsolicited set of alternative measurements for 16.2 mm gauge as well. Now you have really angered me. "unsolicited" indeed. Topics on this public web site are read by many modellers, now and for years to come. When I reply to a question I am trying to make an answer which will be helpful for everyone, not only the questioner. If OPs are not happy with that concept of a forum, they should make an entry on their personal blog, not start a forum topic. Many modellers are now using 00-SF, so I included the relevant information for them, and also to make clear that the track standard affects the process. I don't understand your reference to "gauge-narrowing". A track gauge is normally specified as a minimum dimension. No-one ever narrows it, and nowhere in my reply did I suggest or even mention such a thing. The track gauge is sometimes widened on sharp curves to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles, as on the prototype. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bri.s Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Got to say I thought martins first post was quite informative ,and not biased to anything Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I tend to solder up to the rail break on the Templot template, on a B switch that would leave 10 sleepers not soldered to the rail, seems to work fine for me With roller gauges on one gauge of the pair, I file a flat on one outside rim, this allows the gauge to sit on top of the V on a common crossing so I can gauge across to the stock rail, The flat on the gauge allows me to set the stock gauge. Simply get a 3" piece of rail, start it from the stock gauge line and using a roller gauge at the other end to hold the rail in position and in gauge. Now with the roller gauge with the flat (flat end over the stock gauge point side) you can then solder the stock rail at 16.5 + a rail width. Will take a photo later and upload, as its easier to see than explain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Now you have really angered me. "unsolicited" indeed. Topics on this public web site are read by many modellers, now and for years to come. When I reply to a question I am trying to make an answer which will be helpful for everyone, not only the questioner. If OPs are not happy with that concept of a forum, they should make an entry on their personal blog, not start a forum topic. Many modellers are now using 00-SF, so I included the relevant information for them, and also to make clear that the track standard affects the process. I don't understand your reference to "gauge-narrowing". A track gauge is normally specified as a minimum dimension. No-one ever narrows it, and nowhere in my reply did I suggest or even mention such a thing. The track gauge is sometimes widened on sharp curves to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles, as on the prototype. Martin. Well you forgot the "helpful for everyone" dimensions for the other two far more popular different 4mm scale track gauges of EM, and P4 which "many modellers" have been using for at least as long. So your generosity is amazingly selective. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 So your generosity is amazingly selective. Back right up please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2015 Well you forgot the "helpful for everyone" dimensions for the other two far more popular different 4mm scale track gauges of EM, and P4 which "many modellers" have been using for at least as long. So your generosity is amazingly selective. The question was clearly from a track-building beginner, so I tried to make a suitable reply. EM and P4 modellers are not beginners and don't need me to tell them how to build track -- The EM Gauge Society and Scalefour Society both provide detailed technical manuals for their members. If you disagree with the information I provided, please post your own advice on setting flexible switches. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightbe Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Thank you Martin for the information in your first reply. It was invaluable and backed up what I had suspected--that a 1.3 mm gap is needed in 00-SF if the gauge at the tips is 16.5 mm. On my first attempt I had set it to 1.06 mm (nominal thickness of C&L's PCB strip) and found that this rubbed the wheels slightly. I eased them out and the problem went away. I imagine if I'd worked to DOGA-fine my initial approach would've been correct. It amazes me that others take offense to such good information. Even if the original poster didn't ask for 00-SF dimensions it's good to know because 00-BF and 00-SF are interchangeable and can peacefully coexist on the same layout. Also, I hadn't heard that before--I imagine that the EMGS and Scalefour include it in their manuals, but 00 is a minefield of multiple non-interchangeable standards. Quentin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Following on from my explanation of adapting the roller gauge for use on common crossings and in setting the stock gauge, here are a couple of photos I have cleaned up a couple of surfaces for clarity, this is not a new idea but how gauges used to come with a flat at one end which sits on top of the Vee when setting the stock rail opposite it. It can also be used in setting the stock gauge Here I am setting the stock gauge once the switch rail has been fitted, as you can see the flat sits on both switch and stock rails, just press the stock rail against the gauge and glue in place (or solder if copperclad) I forgot to take a photo of doing the same with a short piece of rail using a gauge at both ends, here is a mock up on the wrong side to illustrate the method This works on both chaired and copperclad constructing methods Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campaman Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 I have no problem with Martyns reply including OO-SF because as already stated its useful information to others, what's not useful is the constant criticism of OO-SF, I choose to build to OO-BF by choice, what other choose is none of my business. Thanks Hayfield that's very clear, I have so far just soldered down to the rail joint marks but will see how it goes. I will have to take some photos of what I have produced so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I didn't criticize the 16.2 mm gauge, just the constant promotion of it, over all the other popular UK gauges, while answering general track work questions, I use several different sets of compromise UK modelling dimensions to all the above, all of course with different pros and cons, but I don't plug them into more general discussions at every unrequested opportunity. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bri.s Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 All I've seen on this thread is that Campaman asked a question Martin wynne helped him by answering it so did Hayfield Yet you've not offered any help to the OP apart from the fact that your not happy with someone trying to help someone else because you don't like the way he's done it And I've not added anything to help I know ,but I've found it interesting and TBH I can't stand that complain about everything Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeeleyBridge Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 It wastes my bandwidth. I'm using the ignore preferences from now on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Dave It does make me smile sometimes though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 All I've seen on this thread is that Campaman asked a question Martin wynne helped him by answering it so did Hayfield Yet you've not offered any help to the OP apart from the fact that your not happy with someone trying to help someone else because you don't like the way he's done it And I've not added anything to help I know ,but I've found it interesting and TBH I can't stand ###### that complain about everything Brian As below, I offer to help fellow 4mm modellers all the time, regardless of what gauge they use. (After all I am a compromising one myself). But as a one man show, financially and time-wise, I can only effectively help people who are prepared to put some of their own time and effort into getting the results they want. And I have no way of supporting far more expensive copper clad methods or flex points as I don't need, use, or have, either myself. >>>>> Hi Andy, Many thanks for the reply. My big hope was to be able to source some already pre-punched (the idea of doing literally 1000's of sleepers isn't fun!) so maybe it's back to the drawing board. Thanks for the prices on the unpunched ties though. Best Regards, Brian. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Reichert [mailto:andy_r@intelegence.com] Sent: 09 April 2008 21:25 To: Tulley, Brian Subject: Re: Sleeper (Ties) Query Brian, I can have them custom cut to UK dimensions. Price would be US$19.95 per 1000 for plain track, US$19.95 per 500 for turnout length. My standard thickness would 2mm, but you ould specify it thinner down to about 1/32. Punching would be prohibitively expensive, but you can instead make up punches like the S4 Society ones. Wood is tight grained, smooth Sugar pine (aka as basswood). I can send samples of the US size. Andy>>>>>> Hi Andy, I notice from your website that you have precision sawn wood ties (sleepers to us in the UK!) available. I have some queries please: 1. Are these available in 32mm lengths please? 2. How wide are they please - I'm ideally seeking 3.3mm wide (i.e. 10 inches in 4mm scale). 3. How thick are the ties please, and what type of wood are they made from? 4. Would they be available in bulk quantities please, pre-punched with 1.2mm diameter holes (to be confirmed) to suit a track gauge of 16.2mm? (i.e 00-SF Gauge) Many thanks. Best Regards, Brian Tulley. >>>>> . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 It wastes my bandwidth. I'm using the ignore preferences from now on. Hello, Could you expand on this please "Dave" Sounds like a line from 2001: A Space Odyssey. trustytrev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 As below, I offer to help fellow 4mm modellers all the time, regardless of what gauge they use. (After all I am a compromising one myself). But as a one man show, financially and time-wise, I can only effectively help people who are prepared to put some of their own time and effort into getting the results they want. And I have no way of supporting far more expensive copper clad methods or flex points as I don't need, use, or have, either myself. >>>>> Hi Andy, Many thanks for the reply. My big hope was to be able to source some already pre-punched (the idea of doing literally 1000's of sleepers isn't fun!) so maybe it's back to the drawing board. Thanks for the prices on the unpunched ties though. Best Regards, Brian. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Reichert [mailto:andy_r@intelegence.com] Sent: 09 April 2008 21:25 To: Tulley, Brian Subject: Re: Sleeper (Ties) Query Brian, I can have them custom cut to UK dimensions. Price would be US$19.95 per 1000 for plain track, US$19.95 per 500 for turnout length. My standard thickness would 2mm, but you ould specify it thinner down to about 1/32. Punching would be prohibitively expensive, but you can instead make up punches like the S4 Society ones. Wood is tight grained, smooth Sugar pine (aka as basswood). I can send samples of the US size. Andy>>>>>> Hi Andy, I notice from your website that you have precision sawn wood ties (sleepers to us in the UK!) available. I have some queries please: 1. Are these available in 32mm lengths please? 2. How wide are they please - I'm ideally seeking 3.3mm wide (i.e. 10 inches in 4mm scale). 3. How thick are the ties please, and what type of wood are they made from? 4. Would they be available in bulk quantities please, pre-punched with 1.2mm diameter holes (to be confirmed) to suit a track gauge of 16.2mm? (i.e 00-SF Gauge) Many thanks. Best Regards, Brian Tulley. >>>>> . Andy Is that necessary as there is no mention of what the query the OP asked about, or related a item. At least you have not bashed 0**f in this post which is most welcome On a serious note I have seen quite a few of your postings regarding your own modelling and products you supply. You are very talented modeller and to be commended for supplying high quality products to modellers. Its a real benefit to modellers when you share your knowledge with them in a constructive manor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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