Petrol/fuel tankers in the 40s/50s/60s

[Gremlin]

Please excuse this question if the answer seems blindingly obvious, but it isn't obvious from Australia...

 

When petrol/diesel was transported by rail pre and post nationalisation, was it common to have a single train of eight-ten tankers, or was fuel transported in mixed consists?  I assume that 4-wheel tankers were used so I will be searching for Farish/Dapol tankers to suit, but what should pull them and how should a consist be arranged?

[asmay2002]

Please excuse this question if the answer seems blindingly obvious, but it isn't obvious from Australia...

 

When petrol/diesel was transported by rail pre and post nationalisation, was it common to have a single train of eight-ten tankers, or was fuel transported in mixed consists?  I assume that 4-wheel tankers were used so I will be searching for Farish/Dapol tankers to suit, but what should pull them and how should a consist be arranged?

 

Both could be seen.  Petrol tankers always had to have a small number of barrier wagons between them and the locomotive because the fire risk.

[Clive Mortimore]

Please excuse this question if the answer seems blindingly obvious, but it isn't obvious from Australia...

 

When petrol/diesel was transported by rail pre and post nationalisation, was it common to have a single train of eight-ten tankers, or was fuel transported in mixed consists?  I assume that 4-wheel tankers were used so I will be searching for Farish/Dapol tankers to suit, but what should pull them and how should a consist be arranged?

 

Both could be seen.  Petrol tankers always had to have a small number of barrier wagons between them and the locomotive because the fire risk.

 

 

Hi Gremlin

 

To add to Andy's reply. Petrol and other low flash point fuels were carried in the silver/grey wagons with a red solbar, known as class A fuels and wagons. These are the ones that need a barrier wagon either side even if it is only one wagon. Barrier wagons were also required when the tanks were empty , as they were never empty of fumes and could still go bang. Black wagons, Class B, carried higher flash point fuels and oils and did not require any barrier wagons. So just follow this simple rule if it is a silver or grey tank then barrier wagons are required. If it is a black tank then no barrier.

 

Whole trains of tank wagons were not that common except from refinery to the nearest marshalling yard. Britain had many small fuel distribution depots so the train would be split up and the wagons form part of a mixed freight to their destinations. There were a few long distance all tank wagon trains to some of the WW2 large storage and distribution depots. Later on when the larger tank wagons came into service they were run as block trains between refineries and the new larger distribution depots, so post 1960s it was less common to see one or a few tank wagons in a mixed train.

[PatB]

Hi Gremlin

 

To add to Andy's reply. Petrol and other low flash point fuels were carried in the silver/grey wagons with a red solbar, known as class A fuels and wagons. These are the ones that need a barrier wagon either side even if it is only one wagon. Barrier wagons were also required when the tanks were empty , as they were never empty of fumes and could still go bang. Black wagons, Class B, carried higher flash point fuels and oils and did not require any barrier wagons. So just follow this simple rule if it is a silver or grey tank then barrier wagons are required. If it is a black tank then no barrier.

 

 

 

In a train of mixed Class A and Class B wagons, could the Class B wagons be used as barriers for the Class As? Intuitively it seems unlikely but I'd be interested to know one way or the other.

[Fat Controller]

Pre-WW2, most fuel (mainly petrol and paraffin) was unloaded in normal station yards, either into road tankers or steel containers of some sort. Unloading of Class A liquids was by siphoning from the top filler, as the integrity of valves for bottom discharge was questionable. The majority of tank wagons at the time didn't have access ladders, so an ordinary ladder would be leant against the tank to allow someone to climb up and insert the pipe through the opening. Given that everyone in period photos seemed to have a fag in their mouth all the time, it's amazing there weren't lots of explosions and fires, but I can't think I've seen any reports of them. As Clive says, WW2 and afterwards was a different ball game; there were a lot more road vehicles around, so many of the former military fuel depots passed into civilian control, and many other depots were built in corners of goods depots or elsewhere. Apart from those operated by the oil companies, and specialised fuel distributors like Charringtons and Cory, many were owned by agricultural supply companies, who had a ready market for fuel as farms became more mechanised.

Some of these small depots survived into the 1970s; Hexham and Haverfordwest come to mind.

[Clive Mortimore]

In a train of mixed Class A and Class B wagons, could the Class B wagons be used as barriers for the Class As? Intuitively it seems unlikely but I'd be interested to know one way or the other.

Hi Pat

 

I cannot recall reading anything that stated the Class B wagons could not be used as barrier wagons.

[Gremlin]

Thanks for all the feedback - very interesting and useful.  And I assume that almost any goods steam loco could be used, with the barrier wagon provision in place?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for all the feedback - very interesting and useful.  And I assume that almost any goods steam loco could be used, with the barrier wagon provision in place?

Yes - or indeed any mixed traffic engine and possibly even an occasional passenger engine.

[hmrspaul]

You need to be much more careful about your time period. Up to 1958 virtually every fuel tank wagon was unfitted and many were surprisingly old. The 60s saw a complete transition through 35t, 40, 45 and finally 50 ton Gross laden weight wagons (and from the later 1960s many bogie tanks, which again were almost (not totally) unknown before 1967). There was also a transition from vacuum to air brake (although those built with VB survived into the early 1980s). Throughout the 60s and a little into the 70s there were still elderly 4 wheel unfitted tank wagons about, SMBP in particular our largest carrier was also late to adopt modern wagons and had a lot of early wagons on restricted flows, whereas Esso the other big boy converted earlier. A few unfitted fleets survived to get TOPs numbering from 1973 - although these were mostly specialist wagons for bitumen (tar) and chemicals.

 

Paul

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpostock

Edited June 7, 2015 by hmrspaul

[Gordon A]

Were railway tank wagons ever fitted with some sort of pump for discharging their load in normal station yards?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[hmrspaul]

Were railway tank wagons ever fitted with some sort of pump for discharging their load in normal station yards?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

Gordon

 

If pumping was required they used a portable pump.But gravity was usually enough.

 

There is a lot about the British oil rail transportation in http://www.hmrs.org.uk/books/bookdetails.php?bookid=1021 This is not just a book about the wagons.

 

This gives far more about the history/development of rail wagons but not so much about unloading etc. It is rather more expensive.

Tourret R. (2009) Petroleum rail tank wagons of Britain. 2nd edition 304pp. Tourret Publishing, Oxford, GB, ISBN 978 0 905878 09 6

 

Paul

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In a train of mixed Class A and Class B wagons, could the Class B wagons be used as barriers for the Class As? Intuitively it seems unlikely but I'd be interested to know one way or the other.

For the late 50's - 1960s period I was a little young to appreciate these nuances, but I do remember the major change in the early sixties when seemingly the 'little' tank wagons disappeared very rapidly to be replaced by physically much more imposing 35t and then 45T units, followed by the bogie 100 tonners by the end of the sixties. I think that was the most striking transition in freight handling; from Victorian standard to contemporary inside a decade.

 

Memory insists, and photos typically confirm, that significant movements of tankers by steam power- which certainly happened on the ECML in the late fifties and early sixties - the tankers were well away from the loco, like half the train. Fitted heads were often clearly arranged, the train running under class D or E lamps as a part fitted freight. Whether this was normal everywhere, I cannot say, but it does look like a sensible decision: let's have a whole heap of (barrier) wagons between tankers and steam loco.

[Silver Sidelines]

It would have been 1961, late in the day and I had been train spotting at Capenhurst, a little station in the Wirral on the route from Birkenhead (and Ellesmere Port) to Chester. I would just wait for this last train.  Well worth it as it was a 'block train' of tank wagons - I am guessing something to do with the refinery at Stanlow.  I cannot remember whether they were black or silver wagons but I do remember it was being worked by an immaculately turned out Grange.

 

Ray

[bike2steam]

Class B, carried higher flash point fuels and oils and did not require any barrier wagons. So just follow this simple rule if it is a silver or grey tank then barrier wagons are required. If it is a black tank then no barrier.

Are you sure?, I refer you to the Fawley to Bromford Bridge oil trains - barrier wagons, usually the exLNER steel hi-sided opens.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2754955

[Black Sheep]

Should barrier wagons be between guards van and tankers also?

 

Where do the yellow benzine with red solebar fit into the mix?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Paul

 

There are barrier wagons but they were not needed for Class B tank wagons.

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2131131 the same service without barrier wagons, and another with barrier wagons and Class A tank wagons http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p945932623/h165E37FE#h165e37fe. Could it be that the barrier wagons were allocated to the train irrespective if it had Class A or Class B wagons as it was a regular service.

 

It was mandatory for trains containing Class A tank wagons for there to be two empty non tank wagons marshalled head and tail. This rule was removed with the improved design of both wagon and valves of the 45 ton GLW wagons of the 1960s.

 

It is also worth noting that there had to be at least ten wagons with non inflammable goods between tank wagons and vans carrying explosives if they were in the same train. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Should barrier wagons be between guards van and tankers also?

 

Where do the yellow benzine with red solebar fit into the mix?

Hi Black Sheep

 

The model yellow livery tank wagons of National Benzole is a fictious livery. Prior to March 1939 Class A wagons were painted light stone with a red band.

 

National Benzole did paint their road tank lorries yellow, may be that is where the model railway manufacturers got the idea from.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Clive Mortimore

[Arthur]

 

I'm not sure that the 'yellow' tank is fictitious. Both Hornby and Bachmann have done that livery and it's mean't to be 'buff', something like 'stone' which was used for class A tanks. Here's the prototype, scroll down, albeit in black and white.

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/view_book.php?ref=L9686

[petethemole]

I've been reading the 'don't use your loft unless it's all done properly as a full conversion' thread. I might as well give it all up. If I put in a staircase and fire door to the loft it will block all access to the three bedrooms and the bathroom. The partial 'storage' conversion done by a previous owner seems very solid but now I'm expecting the lot to collapse. I even slept up there for a while :-(. I suppose that makes it 'habitable'. Even worse. No doubt GCHQ will copy this to the Planning Dept. I'm going to bed.

 

'Night all

 

Pete

[Gremlin]

You need to be much more careful about your time period. Up to 1958 virtually every fuel tank wagon was unfitted and many were surprisingly old. The 60s saw a complete transition through 35t, 40, 45 and finally 50 ton Gross laden weight wagons (and from the later 1960s many bogie tanks, which again were almost (not totally) unknown before 1967). There was also a transition from vacuum to air brake (although those built with VB survived into the early 1980s). Throughout the 60s and a little into the 70s there were still elderly 4 wheel unfitted tank wagons about, SMBP in particular our largest carrier was also late to adopt modern wagons and had a lot of early wagons on restricted flows, whereas Esso the other big boy converted earlier. A few unfitted fleets survived to get TOPs numbering from 1973 - although these were mostly specialist wagons for bitumen (tar) and chemicals.

 

Paul

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpostock

 

I will be using "modellers license" regarding the period, theoretically spanning from the 40s to about the early 60s...Heartbeat era.  So I think 4-wheelers are probably correct as I am modelling a sort of branch line that could have had anything running through it.  For example, the "main" station is sort of Goathland-like, yet at the back of the layout will be a viaduct that is similar to the Ingleton viaduct, there will be goods traffic and, because I have them, also a Flying Scotsman and a Golden Arrow and other assorted eight carriage passenger trains.

 

The problem is, I have lots of rolling stock from all the different groupings, because I like them , but they stop at early Mk1 carriages.  My wife is in charge of the scenery and she want the things she likes to be modelled.

 

So...40s through to early 60s it is...and as she likes fuel trains (no idea why), I appreciate the advice from this thread.  Now I just need to find suitable Farish/Dapol/Peco 4-wheel rolling stock

[SRman]

I don't think this was answered earlier, but yes, there should be barrier wagons between class A tanks and the guards van as well.
 
I believe that once diesels were in charge, as well as having improved the valves, brakes and safety of the tanks themselves, the need for barrier wagons was eliminated. With most of the diesels, there was a length of bodywork between the cab in use and the train, as well as the greatly reduced danger of sparks being thrown from exhausts.

[Clive Mortimore]

I'm not sure that the 'yellow' tank is fictitious. Both Hornby and Bachmann have done that livery and it's mean't to be 'buff', something like 'stone' which was used for class A tanks. Here's the prototype, scroll down, albeit in black and white.

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/view_book.php?ref=L9686

Hi Arthur

 

I did say prior to March 1939 Class A tank wagons were painted light stone with a red band.

 

This is not stone colour http://www.stepo.net/images/Minitrix/Mi_13274.jpg

[petethemole]

Please ignore my previous post. It was in the wrong thread.

 

Pete

[Arthur]

 

Yes Clive, I noted your mention of the use of 'stone' earlier. My point was, and still is, about the accuracy of that National Benzole tank modelled by Hornby, Bachmann and it would seem in N by somebody as well. The prototype photo I linked to shows the livery, colour aside, to be largely accurate so the question is; diid three RTR manufacturers get the body colour wrong? Now it is possible that they did, could they have followed an incorrect original resource and then just copied each other, or just picked a yellow out of the air?

 

However, the 'yellow' chosen is nothing like the bright, intense egg yolk yellow National Benzole used on their road fleet, it's a more creamy yellow. So I still ask is it correct, did National Benzole use a yellowish stone colour, have the RTR manufacturers just produced a too yellow version of it?

 

So, in the absence of a good colour photo of the prototype, I wouldn't dismiss it as being wrong too readily.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi Paul

 

There are barrier wagons but they were not needed for Class B tank wagons.

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2131131 the same service without barrier wagons, and another with barrier wagons and Class A tank wagons http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p945932623/h165E37FE#h165e37fe. Could it be that the barrier wagons were allocated to the train irrespective if it had Class A or Class B wagons as it was a regular service.

 

 

I saw the Fawley-Bromfords with both a mix of tanks or a full train of one type. I suspect that the barrier wagons were allocated to the service, as the second wagon in the second photo appears to be an ex SR 8-Plank vac fitted open. This combination also appears in a photo I have seen with the train on the SR headed by a Jubilee.