LNER Teak Finish

[MikeTrice]

Just back from a lightening visit to the NYMR. In many ways a disappointing trip as very little was accessible for the detailed shots I was hoping to get.

 

This photo is one of the ones taken. It was only on the way home that I realised what I had in the camera. This photo can be scaled to show how a weathered Gresley coach would appear in 4mm (or other scale). At the time of viewing it I was struck by the similarity to Coachmann's Hornby "Teak" adjustments. It has also proved to me that the grain is barely visible in the smaller scales.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

P.S. Was not really sure which forum to put this in. This seemed the most appropriate.

[DLT]

Hope this is useful.

 

P.S. Was not really sure which forum to put this in. This seemed the most appropriate.

 

VERY useful Mike, A good square side-on picture is always a godsend, they're usually so awkward to obtain. It also show varnished teak thats been around a bit and got faded and weathered. Although I'm not modelling Gresley stock, I am doing some teak coaches.

 

I think this a most appropriate section to put this in.

 

Many thanks,

Dave.T

[MEGair]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for the photo. It shows a very weathered teak finish and roof too. I have just been reading Nick Cmplings book on LNER Coaches and thought I would hope on this forum and check out any info.

 

I have 3 of the new Hornby coaches and 7 old ones and a built Kirk Restaurant coach. The old ones I intend to sell. I have a Kirk full brake to build and paint. I intend to buy a couple more, a Hornby 3rd class and a couple of Kirk kits. I may atempt to do the Kirk restaurant triplet set. I have nearly completed the Silver Jubilee set, but thats another story.

 

If I can get these kits to look half as good as Coachmans I will be happy. He has done a excellent job on his coaches. I also have the new Hornby red and cream Gresley's (6).

 

A freind in Canberra Australia has used cedar stain on his old coaches and they have come up very well.

 

Lastly I will be in UK this time next year and will hopefully get to see some Gresley Teaks when I am at the NYMR.

 

regards

Mark in OZ

[coachmann]

Thanks Mike for the picture. It's easy to be wise after the event but I now wish I had added more yellow to my basecoat to counter the whitenning effect of satin varnish.

 

It is a great shame BR did not make an exception for the LNER as it plainly did the SR. No one critisised the Southern Region for touching up its Malachite green coaches instead of adopting blood & custard.

 

The LNER should have been allowed to keep its teak coaches in varnished state, as painting them blood & custard was futile. Peeling maroon paint was not so obvious after the 1956 livery change, which is why the Gresleys began to look better!

 

Larry

[Flying Pig]

The LNER should have been allowed to keep its teak coaches in varnished state, as painting them blood & custard was futile.

They would have looked superb with the early blue express loco livery (and the two could have faded gently together).

[Horsetan]

---> Oil scumble, anyone?

[Atso]

Thanks for posting a rather interesting side on photo of the Buffet Car - I agree that dead side on photos are hard to come by.

 

I thought I'd add a photo of my attempts are reproducing a teak panel in cardboard. The attached photo shows my first attempt which consisted of four coats of Ronseal teak wood varnish applied directly to some white card. Sorry about the shine from the flash but I thought that this provided a better colour match to the earlier photo. I've used this technique repainting Dapol's Gresley coaches in the past but I'm thinking of using this to make up some computer generated images of Gresley stock. I'm also experimenting with using various under coats (red, orange and yellow) to vary the tones of the 'teak' if anyone is interested I'll post further pictures once done.

 

 

Sorry for hijacking the threat but I thought this might compliment the topic...

[coachmann]

Is the teak graining to 4mm scale? It look very good.

 

I came across an old tin of modelling bits in a garage drawer this afternoon. The tin lid had been used to experiment making a teak finish suitable for production on several hundered coaches that we had planned to produce from around 1974.

 

In the end it was too time-consuming and I developed a spray finish instead. But I thought this might be of interest on this thread.

 

I wrote up the 'formula' on the tin lid, the basecoat being referred to as British Leyland (BLMC) AB88 BRACKEN.

Scumble Grain efect with cotton material (shirt etc). ie: scumble wiped with old shirt.

Main Panelling 'Interior brown' (whatever that was)?

Lining primrose & red.

[MikeTrice]

---> Oil scumble, anyone?

Give that person a prize. Oil based scumble has always been my method of choice to recreate varnished teak. I even used the Radcliffe range.

 

My original tin is now over 30 years old and during a recent surge in interest regarding teak carriages decided to re-evaluate my method. I purchased new Radcliffe's scumble and it is clear they have changed the formulae, it was a disaster.

 

I was also heavily influenced by Martyn Welch's article in MRJ and carried out an extensive R+D exercise to get my mojo back, so to speak.

 

I have now adopted a cross between the two methods and use Halford's Volkeswagon Brilliant Orange as a base and then use acrylic scumble (from Homebase) tinted with dark brown matt acrylic paint from the Decormatt range. Normally acrylic dries too fast, but the use of scumble slows the drying time down allowing all sorts of graining effects (should you want to go that far).

 

So, with mojo freshly restored I am now in the process of putting together an example so that I can publish photos.

[MikeTrice]

I came across an old tin of modelling bits in a garage drawer this afternoon. The tin lid had been used to experiment making a teak finish suitable for production on several hundered coaches that we had planned to produce from around 1974.

That graining looks nice, but I am still not convinced about the raised panelling being painted in a darker brown, especially for a panelled coach. I can understand it being used (possibly) for a flush sided coach painted to look as if it is panelled.

 

Sorry, reading this back it comes over very negative, but my reason for responding was to praise the graining which looks superb. I have only ever used brushes to add the graining but might be tempted to try other materials such as the old cotton shirt. For a lot of us, time is not as important as the finished result (I can appreciate a quicker approach is necessary where commercial realities come into play) and from what I have seen here would be well spent.

 

P.S. I have a number of examples of early painted finishes around and cannot remember how I did them. Makes rediscovery all the more enjoyable.

[coachmann]

Gloss Humbrol Nos. 9 and 10 are relatively slow drying and can be worked with a stiff brush for quite a while. The base coat is the key to the final shade of 'teak'.

When graining :- No.9 tan is mostly used, with slight touches of No.10 dark brown here and there. A stiff brush cuts through the gloss paint to the base therebye giving a grain effect.

 

Basecoat :- M&GN Golden Gorse slightly darkenned gives a good idea of the shade to aim for. A car airosil colour should provide a suitable colour and this paint dries rock hard.

 

Larry

[Worsdell forever]

I've experimented with teak over the years with varying results, some quite good (although nowhere near Coachmann's teak). My latest variant is a basecoat of (I think) Humbrol 81, although this can be changed to vary the shades of teak, followed by two to three coats of Ronseal Quick Drying Woodstain, 'Antique Pine' (satin) applied with a stiff brush. This seems to give a subtle graining affect.

 

As seen on a Chivers Pigeon Van.

 

 

[Atso]

Just to add a little more after my initial post. My repainted Dapol Gresley First - Halfords brilliant orange followed by two or three (I've forgotten how many exactly!) coats of Ronseal teak varnish. Please excuse the lining effort as this is only N gauge but I feel this gives a good 'teak' finish. Now I MUST find my coach transfers and finally finish these coaches off! Oh, and paint the solebars!

 

 

Oil based scumble sounds like another method to experiment with the one problem with Ronseal is the quick drying time (although this does allow you to do multiple coats in one day!).

[mozzer models]

heres the way i do it klick on the photo to enlarge

[Rob Pulham]

Just to add a little more after my initial post. My repainted Dapol Gresley First - Halfords brilliant orange followed by two or three (I've forgotten how many exactly!) coats of Ronseal teak varnish. Please excuse the lining effort as this is only N gauge but I feel this gives a good 'teak' finish. Now I MUST find my coach transfers and finally finish these coaches off! Oh, and paint the solebars!

 

 

Oil based scumble sounds like another method to experiment with the one problem with Ronseal is the quick drying time (although this does allow you to do multiple coats in one day!).

 

They look good Steve I haven't yet had the heart to repaint any of the ones I got from Hattons but if I show the wife these she might let me loose on them.

[MikeTrice]

OK, bearing in mind the original photo at the start of this topic, what do you reckon on this?

 

 

Halfords' Volkswagen Brilliant Orange as a base. A mix of Humbrol No 9 and 10 (2:1 mix) thinned slightly applied with flat brush.

 

Under normal circumstances I would now line and letter.

 

Final wash of Humbrol Satin Cote with matt black added. Probably phtotographed before fully dried.

 

24hrs between each coat.

 

I am very pleased with this formulae but would probably add slightly more Humbrol 10 to the graining coat. Humbrol Matt Cote might also be a better option for the weathering coat.

[DLT]

I have a varnished teak project coming up, so this thread is very informative.

 

A few years ago I had a go at varnished coaches, Great Central Barnums in O-Gauge, see here (not sure if they were actually teak, or a slightly different coloured timber?)

 

They were sprayed with white primer, then brushed with an overall pale-cream colour. The actual colouring was done with Humbrol 186 (a rich rust-brown colour) painted on fairly thinly with a flat chisel-shaped brush. Once lettering etc was applied, it had a coat of satin varnish from a spraycan.

 

I was happy with the result, as was the friend I had built them for.

 

Cheers,

Dave.

[MikeTrice]

A few years ago I had a go at varnished coaches, Great Central Barnums in O-Gauge

Thanks Dave. Could not resist including the following photo:

 

[coachmann]

Thanks for posting that picture Mike. Preservation is cruel in that restorers put things into a condition that, while real and proper, the older people amongst us never remember seeing. The GCR coaches had weathered to a much darker shade by the 1950s and colour photos seem to bear this out, but modellers today will quite naturally go off the restored items they see.

 

Your rendition of teak with darker stains in the corners of panelling looks most convincing. Even if unlined it looks right.

 

LG

[MikeTrice]

Your rendition of teak with darker stains in the corners of panelling looks most convincing. Even if unlined it looks right.

Thanks. I though it was time to put my money where my mouth was. I found, as you have previously stated, that the combination of Humbrol 9 and 10 works well, and gives sufficient working time to brush out well. This is where I have found issues with the Precision colours, they dry too quickly. The use of a gloss acrylic undercoat also helps. I think I will use dark grey rather than black for the weathering wash and as stated above increase the quantity of Humbrol 10, but other than that I am VERY happy with the result when compared to the prototype photo of 641.

 

Actually I find painting teak addictive.

 

Preservation is cruel in that restorers put things into a condition that, while real and proper, the older people amongst us never remember seeing

Again, another reason the shot of 641 is so useful.

 

There is another aspect of restoration of preserved LNER coaches which potentially worries me. The replica transfers for the lettering is not an exact copy of the originals. Most of the letters are pretty close, but the "R" in "LNER" is way out in the trailing serif. Likewise the large "3" is missing some shading. Being in the know it irks me. My biggest concern is that it could create a myth that that is what the letter should look like.

 

Original transfer (with some shading painted over):

 

Reproduction (for some reason they have painted the "gold" leaf in pale cream):

[ArthurK]

Many years ago I purchased a number (six I think) PC LNER coaches. These used printed sides and to my eyes at that time gave a good representation of LNER Teak in various degrees of ageing. I wasn't happy with the coach construction methods and thought I might prefer to scatchbuild the coach and attach PC sides to them. On approaching the manufactures they were happy to supply the sides alone. I duely purchased eight sets for the princely sum of 10 shillings per set. (None of this decimal nonsense in those days but in today's money that was 50p). Then I got to thinking why not paint a coach side on clear acrylic and use that in the same way as PC. I needed a triplet Resaurant car set so what better way to start (no Ian Kirk then). However to cut a long storey short here is the result for the first class end. Not perfect but it filled a gap in my coaching stock.

My efforts at teak are very much 'hit and miss' I start with a palette of various browns/orange/yellow. Then it is a dab of this, a dab of that until I am happy with the result.

[Atso]

I think there are some great techniques here for producing a 'teak' finish, interesting to see how many people have stumbled on VW Brillient Orange for a base coat. Mike, I think your reditioning of weathered teak looks great, I'm going to try that sometime on some of the Gresley's I've got already painted in a base coat.

 

Arthur, the triplet looks great, I'm always impressed with how a flat sided piece of stock can be made to look like the multi layered pannelled coach. I've tried this myself but its somewhat more difficult in N gauge (I'm sure someone has managed it but it seems to be beyond my humble abilities at the moment).

[MikeTrice]

I'm going to try that sometime on some of the Gresley's I've got already painted in a base coat.

I am guessing you will be doing this in N. One of the problems especially with N is trying to minimise the number of paint coats applied, which I why I have avoided the "several coats of Ronseal" approach. I, for one, would be interested in seeing the results (I have a couple of Dapol's tucked away awaiting a repaint).

 

I settled on the VW orange purely from reading Martyn Welch's article in MRJ. It just seemed right compared with my photographs of preserved samples.

[Worsdell forever]

I've been meaning to search for these detail shots for a while and only just got round to it.

Taken on the NYMR 2006/7. Hope they are of use.

 

 

 

 

 

[smudgeloco]

What an enthralling read, and some very nice pictures to-boot.

Interesting to note, how on the prototype, things not wooden, are painted teak colour.

I am so tempted to tackle my rake of Hornby horrors now!