bertiedog Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 A Keyser's Cast kit of a GWR Railcar from Ebay, a glued together set that can be reconstructed, but there is a small problem, and that is it has no chassis or bogies at all. Now, that would not normally be a problem with the kit, the K's bogie supplied was usually thrown away, and just the cast sides used, with a replacement power bogie like a Romford etc. Once the parts are retrieved from the glue, and paint, it can all be soldered together and have a few extras added in brass, and the roof improved with a false liner, allowing removal for detailing the interior. So does anybody have drawings, references or books showing the bogie side in reasonable detail for working out the sideframes and transmission shafts? I appreciate being given a reference to a particular book, but I am rarely in the position to be able to buy books etc., especially as I am house bound a bit these days as well. In the past I would have been able to go and see the preserved one, but not these days, so I do need sources that I can access over the net, or by having items sent on to me. Even a good set of photo of a K's Railcar would do, I can work it out, as I built some masters for these in the the past, but unfortunately do not have the details these days. Many thanks in advance, Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 24, 2010 Author Share Posted May 24, 2010 The parts to work with, fortunately glued together so should come apart easily for soldering and further detailing. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 Stephen From memory Autocom still sell these and may sell you the parts, I can take a picture of the bogies both made and un-made and the shaft if this helps as I have both a built one and an un-built one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 24, 2010 Author Share Posted May 24, 2010 I have traced the reference books for these, very expensive!! but the GWR archive as an outline for the No1 chassis the bogies of which are basically the same as the 1940's Swindon built versions of the AEC railcars. I will check and see if castings are made for the frames, the bogie drive mechanism is no problem. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 24, 2010 Author Share Posted May 24, 2010 This appears to be the power bogie design, with the five holes in the frame, that are also on the other end bogie.... is this the same as the K's kit type? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 24, 2010 Author Share Posted May 24, 2010 Looks like the bogies varied with the Swindon type, preserved No22 has different pattern of the holes and bogie shape, and seems to have a different drive shaft position, so I really do need some decent clear shots of the K's bogie to work from. I simply can't remember the details from 30 years ago, about the last time I built one for a customer. The power bogie can have a central drive from a motor in the middle with a central rather than the real main offset shaft, which can be left as a dummy. 12mm wheels with a seven foot wheelbase, 28mm, quite a small bogie, but easy to build. Should run well with the cast lead body!! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Rite Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 [ The power bogie can have a central drive from a motor in the middle with a central rather than the real main offset shaft, which can be left as a dummy. 12mm wheels with a seven foot wheelbase, 21mm, quite a small bogie, but easy to build. Should run well with the cast lead body!! Stephen. Stephen, have a look at the power bogies that Geoff of Hollywood Foundry makes, I have used several and every one is a marvel of precision engineering and should be able to carry that massive K's body about on its back, if not I have a couple of the old K's powered bogies that might be of use, it really depends on how much fidelity you want to 'Pop' Keysers masterpiece. (I'm green with envy, I saw one once on K's stand at Westminster Hall many, many years since and covented it ever since, closest I came to owning one was when I repowered one with a Tri-ang Motor Bogie and the owner disputed the cost, I thought for a while I was going to keep it, but we negotiated a better deal - for him!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Looks like the bogies varied with the Swindon type, preserved No22 has different pattern of the holes and bogie shape, and seems to have a different drive shaft position, so I really do need some decent clear shots of the K's bogie to work from. I simply can't remember the details from 30 years ago, about the last time I built one for a customer. This is correct - the bogie diagram you posted belongs to the first batch of railcars. Judge's "History of the Great Western AEC Railcar" (ISBN 0-86093-139-0) has a wealth of photos and diagrams...dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete S Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Stephen, I have two pairs of sideframes which I obtained from K's many years ago, still on the original casting feeder. If they are of any use please PM and I will be pleased to post them to you Hope this helps, Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 Stephen, have a look at the power bogies that Geoff of Hollywood Foundry makes, I have used several and every one is a marvel of precision engineering and should be able to carry that massive K's body about on its back, if not I have a couple of the old K's powered bogies that might be of use, it really depends on how much fidelity you want to 'Pop' Keysers masterpiece. (I'm green with envy, I saw one once on K's stand at Westminster Hall many, many years since and covented it ever since, closest I came to owning one was when I repowered one with a Tri-ang Motor Bogie and the owner disputed the cost, I thought for a while I was going to keep it, but we negotiated a better deal - for him!) Mind slipping, should have said 28mm wheelbase, still short and small w/b for UK stock. I well remember the Westminster Shows and K's demonstrations of soldering and un soldering the castings at the show!...and yes the Railcar was the best they did in many ways, the sheer size for a start, and the weight is high for such a unit, but the old power bogie they did was a bit poor, K's never quite grasped mechanics! It always seems terrible to strip existing paint, but the parts are in the words of the seller, badly glued, and its already coming apart, so the best approach is a fresh start with the raw castings. With it apart it may be possible to vacuum mould a set of flush windows as well, the glazing is the biggest problem with the thick castings. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Firstly congratulations on getting this body. I was bidding against you, and drove the price up to the giddy price you had to pay. As it was one of the later batches, it would have 8'6" bogies, with the drive shaft over the end of the axle, instead of under-hung. I'm not sure of the availability of these, but Westward used to do white metal versions of them. Maybe its worth a 'phone call to Chris Parish to see if he has any. Any other method of communication is a waste of time. Also, did you know that Bill Bedford produces an alternative drive system for these railcars, but only for EM or P4. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 Stephen From memory Autocom still sell these and may sell you the parts, I can take a picture of the bogies both made and un-made and the shaft if this helps as I have both a built one and an un-built one. It seems that Autocom/Nu-cast have moved and the numbers on the net are wrong, so very difficult to contact! Any pictures of the K's cast bogies or side frames very welcome indeed. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 Firstly congratulations on getting this body. I was bidding against you, and drove the price up to the giddy price you had to pay. As it was one of the later batches, it would have 8'6" bogies, with the drive shaft over the end of the axle, instead of under-hung. I'm not sure of the availability of these, but Westward used to do white metal versions of them. Maybe its worth a 'phone call to Chris Parish to see if he has any. Any other method of communication is a waste of time. Also, did you know that Bill Bedford produces an alternative drive system for these railcars, but only for EM or P4. Tom Sorry about the buy! I was beginning to wonder on the bogie length looking at the pictures on the net, and had noticed the drive shaft across the axle line rather than under-slung already. As you can see, buying the books would be many times the cost of the body! Building them in brass is no bother, but I need something to work from!!!!! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 I dont suppose you can just use the Lima ones? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 So now........ it's a 34mm bogie wheelbase for the later ones, and that looks more like it from whatever shots there are on the net, and there are not many of the bogies. Didcot very helpfully have a photo of No 22 with the motor covers off and standing over the bogies........!!!!! Can any body confirm the wheel diameter for the 8ft 6inch bogies, it is still 3 foot 2 inch or a larger size? I don't want a session at the lathe only to find I have made the wrong diameter, my legs can't stand for that long at the moment!!! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 I dont suppose you can just use the Lima ones? Cheers Jim My models do somewhat tend to be a plastic free zone!!!!, However if the Lima are correct I could indeed use a photo of the sides, both powered and unpowered sideframes to use for the design. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Hi Stephen Why does it matter what the materials are? if it works and (if) its accurate why not use it? Bit confused Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 The wheels are 3'2" according to 'The History of the Great Western AEC Diesel Railcars' (ISBN 0-86093-139-0 opc), which is the best book for this, as it includes all the diagrams, and plenty of photographs, of the bogies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 Hi Stephen Why does it matter what the materials are? if it works and (if) its accurate why not use it? Bit confused Cheers Jim Metal is reasonably stable, most plastic is not, it can't take paint thinners so well, no weight, not durable in the forms usually used on models, if the maker chooses nylon, it is un-glueable as well as un-paintable. If makers chose filled ABS it might be a lot better than the polystyrene usually offered. Lima are one of the reasons plastic has had a bad reputation in models, cheaper design, cost cutting for no particular reason, they excelled in delivering interesting, but flawed designs, and some FE makers are still no better. Slowly they are returning to metal, but even there they struggle with Mazak and it's rot problems. A model made in brass and steel will last indefinitely, I have just re-built a 1820 pocket watch, (my other hobby), not one of the parts was not re-used, most were in pristine "as made" condition....a few dents to the silver case to remove, that's all.......and no plastic! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 The wheels are 3'2" according to 'The History of the Great Western AEC Diesel Railcars' (ISBN 0-86093-139-0 opc), which is the best book for this, as it includes all the diagrams, and plenty of photographs, of the bogies. Many thanks, the GWR archive agrees as well, so a set of 13.4 mm stainless steel wheels can be made straight away. I think the model will be done in OO as it can run for demonstrations on the HO layout, but might be converted to P4 later on when a new P4 layout is underway. The Lima Hornby wheels seem to be a bit over sized to say the least! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 A model made in brass and steel will last indefinitely, I have just re-built a 1820 pocket watch, (my other hobby), not one of the parts was not re-used, most were in pristine "as made" condition....a few dents to the silver case to remove, that's all.......and no plastic! Really, which would disappear first when dumped in a land fill plastic or steel? Either will out last both of us of course. Of course there is metal then there's metal -some brass kits use a particularily horrible grade of brass. There's good and bad in both As such I am probably more wary of metal than other stuff although I do prefer to work in metal (its so much easier - for the reasons you have outlined). the original Lima wheels were 12mm BTW Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 My uncle used to give a knowing smile when the indestructible nature of plastic was mentioned, he was by the way a senior chemist at Du Pont, and BP previously, and merely added that the reputation of plastic to be so durable was worth more to the manufacturers of plastic items, than correcting this impression with the actual facts. There has been massive research to find long term plastic for cables and gas mains, earlier types of plastic proved unstable, or porous, some actually rotted in contact with bacteria. The papers like to mention plastic bags that last thousands of years, more like a few months before starting to rot. PVC embrittles with age, as does ABS, and polystyrene relaxes back to it's basic form, accelerated by heat. Oddly the most durable common use plastic is Bakelite, not even classed as a proper plastic. This is an 1850 pocket watch, English, about to service, no rust, no corrosion whatsever....no plastic!! but also no glass!!...needs a replacement sourced!! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 I'll see if I can find which box my railcar is sitting in and post some photos. I acquired mine at a swapmeet. Remotored (sort of) with a Kitmaster motor bogie, which is probably even more cr@p/gutless than the K's original! The construction/paintwork appears on a par with yours. There is some info in Russell's GWR coach books (vol. 2) if you have them. This photo doesn't help much either. http://en.wikipedia....cester_1965.jpg and these are a bit small http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/aec3.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 This appears to be what's on the Lima, and I assume the Hornby version is derived from the Lima Railcar? The wheels look bigger, but I think it's the flanges!! 13.4 mm is correct over tyre, and they are being done to the tightest limit of RP 25 spec., for the flange, and normal width to prevent any drop!! I have some bogie pieces coming, and any further shots would be appreciated. Phew, yes!! the Kitmaster would have trouble with the weight, the K's one either slipped violently or overheated, and Romford was not much better because of the massive load. Mind you, a twin motored one coud out haul a Deltic once underway. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Hi Stephen probably a similar knowing smile to when people claim steel lasts indefinately! Seriously though that's a beautiful watch, seems such a shame that the best part of such a piece of machinary is hidden away. I wonder if a swatch model railway would be interesting? Where all of the body work is clear so you can see the inner workings? Just a thought! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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