Ozexpatriate Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Based on some discussion in the Hawksworth thread, I have opened this topic. (If this topic should go somewhere else, please feel free to move it.) Sometimes forum members can get frustrated with other members' questions that might seem superficial or at least something that could have been found with a minimum of research. This topic interests me because despite being interested in British railways, I don't live in the UK. I consequently don't have access to very specific reference books about railways. (It's hard to get a sense of what a book really contains in an on-line review compared with leafing through one in a shop. While specialty retailers are better, this is particularly the case with something like amazon.com - or amazon.co.uk if you prefer.) There are times when I will ask for help in an on-line forum like this one. I don't expect people to do the research for me - but if they happen to know, and enjoy sharing what they know, I for one appreciate their largess of spirit. The Hornby forum is intentionally designed to take advantage of the generosity of those who are happy to share their knowledge - something I have very mixed feelings about. When is it considered lazy, rude or selfish to ask for help? I think it's wrong to expect help but there are people here who are willing to help - so long as they don't feel put upon. What is our consensus? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Hi Well if the answer to a question is the first 'hit' on a google search or one of many topics already discussed multiple times (and thus crops fairly high up in the forum search) its a bit lazy. Also if its something that can be easily found out on your own (how big is a house brick - open the door and measure one!) for example. I think it comes down to wether any attempt has been made to find the answer on your own or not. Having said that there are no dumb questions! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Interesting discussion point Expat! There are times when I will ask for help in an on-line forum like this one. I don't expect people to do the research for me - but if they happen to know, and enjoy sharing what they know, I for one appreciate their largess of spirit. And I don't think anyone would mind for one minute helping you out with an enquiry, I'm sure you're also the sort to pass that information on if anyone asked you at a future time, here or elsewhere. They say there's no such thing as a daft question; but I sure as hell have seen some dumb people asking questions. To try and illustrate the point imagine you're walking into town, a car pulls up alongside and asks the directions to Church Street; you tell the driver. Ten minutes later the same driver pulls up and asks "Can you tell me the way to Lower Lane?", it may have been a little better if preceded by "I'm terribly sorry to bother you again but...", you give him a short but correct answer and shake your head as he drives off again. Two minutes pass by and the same car and same driver stop you again, "Can you tell me the way to Upper Way mate?". Now any rational person would probably start to get to the edge of patience at this time. "I thought you wanted to go to Lower Lane when you asked me two minutes ago?" "Yeah, well I changed my mind" "Isn't that an A to Z on your dashboard?" "Yeah but I thought it would be quicker to ask" Would you give him directions the next time he stops to ask? And when is it welcome? Most definitely when we see someone do something with the information or pass it on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I can understand Ozexpatriot because I'm in the 'States too it can be frustrating either modelling or planning something from 4,500 miles away when you can't just pop in a book/model/engineering store or actual site and take a look. Strangely one of the worst things for me is finding alternatives for something branded like Copydex which doesn't exist over here. Most people on here, like Jim or Andy above, understand this and are more patient with us! Others, the minority, assume I live in a suburb of York..... Jim, most houses over here are woodframe, wood cladded. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 The major advantage of the internet, in the sort of situation you describe, Andy...is the ability to stay silent on the matter. Perhaps the upsurge in this matter owes something to the way railway modelling has changed in more recent years? Nowadays railway modelling seems inundated by the proprietary manufacturers.....we note an upsurge in what used to be called 'cheque-book' modelling...'off-the-shelf' railways? Maybe the trend towards buying boxes to achieve the end product also affects the way people now seek information? Perhaps we are seeing the upsurge of a demand for 'instant knowledge?'....off-the-shelf', so to speak? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Hi Pete It certianly pays to look at the location of the poster asking the question. I understand paving slabs over there are large 'poured in situe' affairs not the small supplied in piles types we have for example Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Jim...you have my sympathies if your piles are like paving slabs.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 "I thought you wanted to go to Lower Lane when you asked me two minutes ago?""Yeah, well I changed my mind" While attempting to respond I gave up as I couldnt find the words. In the meantime Andy Y came up with something that sums up what I was trying to get over. Obviously he too has noticed one or two things..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Hi Pete It certianly pays to look at the location of the poster asking the question. I understand paving slabs over there are large 'poured in situe' affairs not the small supplied in piles types we have for example Cheers Jim Jim, Of course nothing is that simple! If you really want to know let me know which town/city and i'll check..... Remember what you reminded me? Model what you see not what you think you see...... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted September 21, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2010 When is it lazy? When the answer you're looking for could be found with a quick Google search. It's also quite often faster to do your own search, as posting a question and waiting for someone to answer will invariably take longer. When is it rude? When the question has been asked a zillion times before, or has been asked by the same person repeatedly but without answer. Also when it's in a thread that's not about the question in question. When is it selfish? Probably when it ends up dominating everyone else's time that they want to use for other topics of conversation. Conversely: When is it not lazy? When you have done a web search and are told the answer is in a particular book, but you have no way of getting hold of said book (e.g., you're overseas, or the book is now out of print and rare) When is it not rude? When you phrase your question politely, and leave a reasonable amount of time for an answer. When is it not selfish? Never! By definition the fact you're asking the question is to fulfil your need for knowledge. Arguably you could be asking the question for someone else so it might not be entirely selfish in that case, but even then you're gaining kudos with the person who's asked you to ask the question, so there is still potential for that to be selfish Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestburyJack Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Not in itself Oz, but it's usualIy easier to help folk who are prepared to help themselves; to provide specific knowledge to build on their own groundwork. I see questions every day on here where the OP hasnt even done the most basic Googling; at the time, I thought this about Stratford was quite a spectacular example When is it considered lazy, rude or selfish to ask for help? I think it's wrong to expect help but there are people here who are willing to help - so long as they don't feel put upon. What is our consensus? When is it lazy - well the example about Stratford that was given in the 'Hawksworth' thread above might have appeared lazy at first, but the answers that the question generated far exceeded what might have been available from a simple 'Google' and IMO were interesting and perhaps made up for this? When is it rude - when you don't say 'please'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Doesn't the answer to the op also have to do with the frequency of a specific posters questions...as an example..on another forum a new poster kept asking questions, pretty inane ones IMHO, but it was one after the other, sometimes 5,8,10 in a day and all on unconnected matters so it appeared that he was just a timewaster....needless to say he was banned in fairly short order. A slightly different example...yesterday I asked a question about the apparent difference in floor levels between the tender and loco footplate of the City of Truro and Ozexpatriate was able to immediatly direct me to a posting on a thread here on RmWeb which dealt with this issue. Granted it was on the 13th page of the thread but he knew exactly were it was. I don't know if I could have worded the question in the search box to get a similar response and I admit I didn't try...but I did try to google plans for the loco(no luck) and I did look at over 50 online pics of the real thing to try and solve the question before posting my question here and getting Ozexpatriates response. I admit to feeling a bit silly at how easily the answer was provided to me.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I think it helps if you give your question a precise and descriptive wording in the topic title... exactly as Andy's guidance says at the top of the page when you start a new topic in the relevant subforum. A really vague or general title wastes everybody's time looking at something they can't help with, or the person who really knows the answer may not bother to open the thread. Also often a good idea to say briefly what you have already tried, for example "I googled for plans of this coach but there weren't any end elevations". That shows you've put in a bit of effort, gives an indication of your level of knowledge and makes it less likely that someone will waste their own time and yours by suggesting something you've already done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 22, 2010 Author Share Posted September 22, 2010 A slightly different example...yesterday I asked a question about the apparent difference in floor levels between the tender and loco footplate of the City of Truro and Ozexpatriate was able to immediatly direct me to a posting on a thread here on RmWeb which dealt with this issue. ... I admit to feeling a bit silly at how easily the answer was provided to me.. No need to feel silly, it was a happy coincidence and your question was welcome. I have the earlier Bachmann City of Truro, had the same question you did and happened to remember the thread discussion about the extra tender floor part that comes with the accessories. I did search for "footplate" in the City of Truro thread but it didn't take too long since I sort of knew what I was looking for. There aren't too many questions I can answer with authority here and it was my pleasure to help. For me the opportunity to help out a fellow enthusiast and learn something are two of the great things about RMweb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I can understand Ozexpatriot because I'm in the 'States too it can be frustrating either modelling or planning something from 4,500 miles away when you can't just pop in a book/model/engineering store or actual site and take a look. Strangely one of the worst things for me is finding alternatives for something branded like Copydex which doesn't exist over here. I have both those problems in reverse..!!! I'm still not entirely sure what "Masonite" is... I've asked what some might consider an inane or 'lazy' question on here just recently, about Hornby vs Bachmann A4 models, but I tried to make the title & subheading as explanatory as possible, and I've learned something from the replies I've had. Quite how I'd find out what people think of these models in a 'Google' search I'm not sure. They are models I've had no experience with despite 32 years in the hobby, so RMweb was the ideal place to ask about them, as it is such a broad 'church'. I've also posted thanks for the replies so far; another thing often neglected by many question askers, which gets on people's nerves and turns the OP into a 'rude' one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 22, 2010 Author Share Posted September 22, 2010 I have both those problems in reverse..!!! I'm still not entirely sure what "Masonite" is... ... I've also posted thanks for the replies so far; another thing often neglected by many question askers, which gets on people's nerves and turns the OP into a 'rude' one... Yes, Masonite is just the thing for mounting backdrops. I had the same problem with "Sundela" until I learned it was rubbish and now I don't feel the need anymore. And ... thank you to everyone for your thoughts so far! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Dear Oz, because you asked, here's my general feelings on the subject, usually can be related back to common courtesy 1 - Ask a Serious/Genuine Question, you'll get a Genuine answer 2 - If you can show that you're genuinely interested in the answer, and not wasting the respondents time, all the better ("I thought I'd ask, but really couldn't give a damn if you answer or not, BTW I've ignored all of your "trod-the-path-already" advice, and am going my own way) 2a - if some advice you recieve is helpful, let the responder know. Even better, if it leads to a breakthru in the building of a given model or part of your layout, pics and "before/after" shots really help confirm to the "Regular Suspects" that their sharing their knowledge was worth their while. (They're not looking for gratuitous "You Rock!"s, but sharing knowledge with an audience that really/obviously doesn't care, is a recipe for loosing the knowledge sources very quickly...) 3 - RE technical issues, supply all relevant starting-position information, (IE don't ask "I want to know everything about everything, specific to my given circumstances which I won't tell you ahead of time, and I want it on a silver platter..." For an excellent case study in handling such completely random, invalid, un-answerable posts, check the skills of the regular "First Responders" on the JMRI YahooGroup, my hat goes off to those lads...) 4 - It helps if you can show that you've already done at least a modicum of research yourself, thus proving that you're geuinely keen and focussed, (or alternatively, are willing to admit, "I've never tackled this before, please be patient with me"). Giving reference to where you've already looked helps the Respondent focus their answer, because they can - confirm what you've seen/researched is what you're looking for - point out where "existing knowledge"/resources may be leading you astray - and generally help "steer your future research" Hope this Helps... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 As a veteran poster (and you don't get that sort of post count by being silent), I appreciate that sometimes the posts seem a bit repetitive but a genuine post on a specialist subject of which I have knowledge is hard to resist. It is intensely gratifying to see that same knowledge becoming a standard, being passed on as a given. I also have no problem in admitting that a lot of my knowledge comes from the same process in addition to other skills which can only come from actually practising them. It is extremely difficult to learn to solder by reading posts on here but it is useful to be given hints and tips so you start right and reach the nirvana of a well soldered joint that much quicker. I don't agree with our distant friends considering themselves hard done by. If you model UK outline of more than twenty years ago, we are all on memory. Indeed UK steam is a distant memory so you will always be modelling something that someone else is telling you about. Add to that the universal steam black and white images and the modern loss of 'habitat' with the distinct tricks that memory can play at that distance.....well, we are all in the same boat there and the information you use is just the same as the information we all use, just greater postage. There is a lot of bulls**t on the Web but, in general, there seems a lot less on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Jim, Of course nothing is that simple! If you really want to know let me know which town/city and i'll check..... Hi Pete What I was trying to say is its always worth looking at where the poster is before answering a question. If you were to ask - how big is a typical paving slab? If you had your location as london you might get a "step outside your front door and measure one numb nuts!" However Being the other side of the pond its probably a damn sight more difficult for you to get that info Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Jim, That was an unfortunate example. I too no longer live in Britain and, having forgotten how big a brick is, I had to ask that very question on a forum once. Bricks in Germany are different so it wouldn't have helped much to measure one! I agree with the remark about Google though, but if someone asks a question out of laziness there is no obligation to reply. David Hi David See follow up posts on location of posters. (however first hit on google is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick ) Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 On the subject of "things that can be easily found with a Google/Forum search", sometimes the exact wording really matters. I've certainly had instances where I spent quite a while digging for info on my own, asked a question about it on here, and found out that if I searched for something very slightly different, I got a lot more results. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Hi Pete What I was trying to say is its always worth looking at where the poster is before answering a question. If you were to ask - how big is a typical paving slab? If you had your location as london you might get a "step outside your front door and measure one numb nuts!" However Being the other side of the pond its probably a damn sight more difficult for you to get that info Cheers Jim And I thought you were moving into Proto87 because New Street was too easy.............................. Another issue on BB's is the fact that you cannot see people - you learn about them from their writings but you cannot hear any nuances in their voice, or see the twinkle in their eyes, everything seems to be literally black and white and it is too easy to misunderstand or get the wrong end of the stick. As someone else said above I always try and thank people for helpful replies. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Everything I would have said has already been said, so I don't need to have my say (radical new concept there for RMWeb... ) I've also posted thanks for the replies so far; another thing often neglected by many question askers, which gets on people's nerves and turns the OP into a 'rude' one... Fair point, the only aspect to this is the introduction of the 'thank you' button which it could be argued has taken the place of the 'Thanks for the answers' post. Tricky one isn't it - we introduced the thank you button as a way of removing the chaff of 'I agree' and 'Thank you' posts from threads, but a side effect is that often you're not sure if the OP is the one clicking the button or not - it could simply be the other respondees. Do we press the button or post 'thank you'? Hmmm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 22, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2010 Doesn't the answer to the op also have to do with the frequency of a specific posters questions...as an example..on another forum a new poster kept asking questions, pretty inane ones IMHO, but it was one after the other, sometimes 5,8,10 in a day and all on unconnected matters so it appeared that he was just a timewaster....needless to say he was banned in fairly short order. A slightly different example...yesterday I asked a question about the apparent difference in floor levels between the tender and loco footplate of the City of Truro and Ozexpatriate was able to immediatly direct me to a posting on a thread here on RmWeb which dealt with this issue. Granted it was on the 13th page of the thread but he knew exactly were it was. I don't know if I could have worded the question in the search box to get a similar response and I admit I didn't try...but I did try to google plans for the loco(no luck) and I did look at over 50 online pics of the real thing to try and solve the question before posting my question here and getting Ozexpatriates response. I admit to feeling a bit silly at how easily the answer was provided to me.. You have also raised an interesting point here Gene because sometimes things, especially web searches, depend on the question you ask. For example (because it is now a 'favourite') I can take you fairly quickly to a side elevation of a GWR 'City' (admittedly not a wonderful one!) here http://www.champwilde.f9.co.uk/gwdrawings/loco-3700.jpg but I originally only found it because I was asking a completely different question of Google I've no problem with people asking questions - I will always try to give an answer if I know it (or with something more complex can readily research/check the information I give and I don't normally begrudge the time because I happen to have quite a good library and archive, something others might not have). I don't mind 'dumb' questions either - and always held the view when carrying out staff traning or lecturing that the 'idiot question' can often be very useful for a lead in to explanation or visiting things many folk don't even normally think about. I tend not to be impressed by someone who comes into a thread and starts asking questions which were dealt with a page or three back in that very thread - it doesn't exactly take a lifetime to read through a thread before jumping in (although I must admit to occasional duplication of answers on my part for that very error). But what I do not think much of are folk who don't even acknowledge info let alone say thanks and people who haven't even bothered to try a simple question in Google but, in effect, look to someone else to do it for them. Quite understandable that someone unfamiliar with the nuances of, say, UK English might not know what to ask; not so understandable for those playing on home ground. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 What I was trying to say is its always worth looking at where the poster is before answering a question. If you were to ask - how big is a typical paving slab? If you had your location as london you might get a "step outside your front door and measure one numb nuts!" However Being the other side of the pond its probably a damn sight more difficult for you to get that info Definately, I recall asking once on a yahoogroup whether there was any "standard" sizes for US grade crossing markings and a grumpy poster told me to go and measure my local one, Red Cow crossing doesn't look the same though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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