Model pricing

[coachmann]

Kenton said :

One has to wonder if it can continue at this pace?

Is there not some point at which either market saturation occurs or the range of new possible models simply degenerates to yet more "specials" and boring 37 repeats ... even then there must be a limit.

I think this may be the case with diesels considering the amount of wishlisting for retooled upgraded 21st Century models of existing deisels.

 

However, with steam we havent even begun to scratch the surface. Steam locos, unlike diesels, generally kept within certain boundaries as we know. Produce a GER 0-6-0 and only a small section of modellers will buy it. NER, GNR, NBR, CR, SE&CR, LBSC, MR, LYR, GCR etc etc will still be waiting years from now for an 0-6-0 they can use. Then we move to 4-4-0's, 4-6-0's, 0-8-0's and tank locos big and small. It is a market that can never be saturated enough for me...

 

Larry

[Sailor Charon]

Well, as an N gauge modeller, I'm in the happy-ish position of not having to worry about too much coming out. [Even allowing for the fact that if it had a ferret and dartboard or cycling lion on it, I'll run it.] But also in the unhappy position (in a number of cases) of having to get stuff quite quickly - Can you say B17?

[Pennine MC]

 

I think this (market saturation) may be the case with diesels considering the amount of wishlisting for retooled upgraded 21st Century models of existing deisels.

 

However, with steam we havent even begun to scratch the surface. Steam locos, unlike diesels, generally kept within certain boundaries as we know. Produce a GER 0-6-0 and only a small section of modellers will buy it. NER, GNR, NBR, CR, SE&CR, LBSC, MR, LYR, GCR etc etc will still be waiting years from now for an 0-6-0 they can use. Then we move to 4-4-0's, 4-6-0's, 0-8-0's and tank locos big and small.

 

I do very much agree with that general point Coach, that there is oodles of untapped potential with steam, compared with the relatively limited number of diesels that havent yet been touched. I'm not so sure though that market saturation isnt a red herring here.

 

You're essentially talking of two (in fact an infinite number of, really) different markets - the people who are wishlisting for the diesel types are doing so because there's little or nothing in the 'wider market' (i.e steam) that would interest them. I would stand by my own assertion that an improved range of Derby type 2s and *possibly* a 40 would be worthwhile - these would sell to the transitionalists but would be of little use to the post-Sector modeller (please dont anybody split hairs about dates here, I'm talking in general terms)

 

I do think though that quality models like the Super D, T9 and 04 can create a bit of their own market, and possibly induce thoughts of modelling a differnt period to that one would normally consider; I've always had a leaning towards the late survivors like 8Fs and Standards, but some of the pre-Group locos that now seem to have found favour are almost ridiculously tempting...

[coachmann]

I dont know how many different classes of Deisels locomotives have been introduced since 1947, but there were 141 different classes of loco on the LMS alone at the dawn of BR in January 1948. As with Diesels, there were also variations within each class.

 

Add to these figured the total classes on the LNER, GWR and SR and there is a lot of ground still to cover. The fact that anyone can make a resonable representation a line in their particular area using just RTR models is not bad for starters though. Unless you want to run suburban trains!

[Andy C]

Whilst in Germany over the New Year holiday i was browsing in a Koblenz model shop and musing on this very thread. OK I know they both have sound, but with the pound almost at parity with the Euro it rather puts things into perspective - these are discounted prices as well, (76 Euros in the case of the Railcar) and to be honest detail wise, Bachman / Hornby offerings are now every bit as good.

 

 

[OldSutt]

After seeing the prices for those Continental items posted by Andy C, I have come to the conclusion that ??145 for a COT is not so bad after all. If Hornby or Bachmann tried to price their items at roughly 3 times there would be few takers and demand would stagnate.

[Guest Max Stafford]

That's the point that many of us with continental experience have been trying to make. UK outline models are a serious bargain in the face of the evidence clearly displayed above. Honest, they really are...!

 

Dave.

[APOLLO]

That's the point that many of us with continental experience have been trying to make. UK outline models are a serious bargain in the face of the evidence clearly displayed above. Honest, they really are...!

 

Dave.

 

Agree, especially when discounted !!!

 

??39 paid recently (Hattons) for a Bachman Brush 4 (class 47). Will pull the side of the house down, super detailed, directional lighting, etc.

??54 for a Hornby Railroad black spaceship (9F) - Fantastic Bargains.

 

Apollo

[Colin_McLeod]

There are weekly product announcments in the likes of model railroader

 

Quite clever for a monthly publication.

 

Sorry. I'll get my coat.

[Jenny Emily]

Modellers have never had it so good. I remember as a teenager looking at some of the then offerings and finding the prices eyewatering. A lot of those models - in improved form - are now in the Hornby Railroad range at a bargain price. As others have said, there are still staggering deals to be had (a Heljan class 33 in Departmental grey arrived for me last week from Hattons brand new at just ??39 - and it wasn't the only version they had that cheap).

 

Limited editions sell. Simple. The City of Truro and prototype Deltic are models that will appeal, and compared to the price of kit built versions, not to mention the skill required to build, are very good value still. And the only skill involved is commiting to buy it and waiting for it to arrive.

 

The feast and fammine approach that most manufacturers seem to take these days to deliveries is annoying - nothing for months, then loads all at once. It is irritating as a consumer, so I can imagine the annoyance it causes retailers and their cash flows. I have bought all the presflo cement wagons for my layout (finally my old Hornby-Dublo super detail models are considered retired - and not before time). Keeping up with other releases, particularly class 25s, has been hard enough.

 

I have a larger disposable income than a lot of people I know. It still forever feels tight though. Nominally I model 1970s/80s BR blue era, but I seem to be tempted these days by so many of these unusual releases - I saw the Bachmann Super D when first released and impulse bought one then and there, despite not modelling anything to do with the steam era.

 

How much is too much? Well, I drew the line at the price for the Heljan/Hattons class 14 in BR Blue. As much as I want it, I look at the class 33 I bought last week and wonder how many of those I could buy for the same price. I'm sure it will sell, but just not to me - especially after the Graham Farish version was announced. Will Bachmann release an OO big brother at a much lower price in the next couple of years? I am hoping. I have however paid full RRP for numerous other limited editions most of what I buy these days are limited editions rather than the general release stuff. Of particular interest are vacuum braked wagons suitable for 1970s/80s era. I have my eye on the Kernow models china clay wagons with flat tarpaulins, and the forthcoming Hattons VVV coded triple pack.

 

Some things are still neglected. One thing that we are particularly poorly served for is locos in industrial liveries. Hornby has done well with the J94 (so much so I have three), and the Heljan/Hattons class 14 in NCB livery is a welcome model, but what about Bachmann releasing the class 04 or 08 in industrial liveries? That wouldn't break the bank for them, would it? Hopefully if the limited edition Stephenson Clarke Pannier sells well (I have one) then maybe they might consider them? Please?

['CHARD]

As others have said, there are still staggering deals to be had (a Heljan class 33 in Departmental grey arrived for me last week from Hattons brand new at just ??39 - and it wasn't the only version they had that cheap).

 

How much is too much? Well, I drew the line at the price for the Heljan/Hattons class 14 in BR Blue. As much as I want it, I look at the class 33 I bought last week and wonder how many of those I could buy for the same price.

 

Three. Welcome to RMweb.

[Karhedron]

How much is too much? Well, I drew the line at the price for the Heljan/Hattons class 14 in BR Blue. As much as I want it, I look at the class 33 I bought last week and wonder how many of those I could buy for the same price. I'm sure it will sell, but just not to me - especially after the Graham Farish version was announced. Will Bachmann release an OO big brother at a much lower price in the next couple of years? I am hoping.

Not according to the rumours I have heard. Apparently Bachmann were working on the class 14 for both scales but scrapped their 00 plans so as not to come second to market after Heljan. They are releasing the N gauge version as the work had already been done and this allows them to recoup the R&D costs.

 

Just a rumour of course so take it with a pich of salt. However if it is true I would not hold my breath for a cheaper offering from Bachmann.

[Jenny Emily]

Not according to the rumours I have heard. Apparently Bachmann were working on the class 14 for both scales but scrapped their 00 plans so as not to come second to market after Heljan. They are releasing the N gauge version as the work had already been done and this allows them to recoup the R&D costs.

 

Just a rumour of course so take it with a pich of salt. However if it is true I would not hold my breath for a cheaper offering from Bachmann.

 

That would be a shame. Though if the Heljan/Hattons model sold out quickly would they rethink?

 

There are plenty of models where two manufacturers have competing offerings. Hornby introduced their 08/09 after Bachmann had done theirs. How many different 37s are now on the market? Of course they are potentially for a much wider appeal. But then, there were plenty of class 14s, and they did last a long time in industrial use and fare well in preservation....

[Karhedron]

That would be a shame. Though if the Heljan/Hattons model sold out quickly would they rethink?

Who knows? Their decision might be based on estimates of demand and gut-feeling for the current financial climate. If the Hattons/Heljan model sells quickly they might change their minds. Their Std 4 4-6-0 came out about the same time as Hornby's so they are clearly willing to duplicate if they believe the models will sell.

[Hammer]

Who knows? Their decision might be based on estimates of demand and gut-feeling for the current financial climate. If the Hattons/Heljan model sells quickly they might change their minds. Their Std 4 4-6-0 came out about the same time as Hornby's so they are clearly willing to duplicate if they believe the models will sell.

 

Surely the Standard 4 is a bit different? It was used in three different regions, represents something that doesn't look typically Southern or Western for modellers of those areas and is representative of two areas which are very much in vogue just now. Pretty much a guaranteed seller for both companies.

 

The 14, while also being a Western beastie seems of much more limited appeal (although I would still like one 'as preserved'), thus having less room for competition.

[298]

The ??39 Crompton is hardly a fair comparison, if anything it's indicative of a poor business decision and overstocking of a less than popular livery. It's a bargain if you want to do a repaint or need the chassis for something else. It'd be interesting to see if the class 14 ends up being discounted, or if sales are hindered by the price tag.

 

That would be a shame. Though if the Heljan/Hattons model sold out quickly would they rethink?

 

There are plenty of models where two manufacturers have competing offerings. Hornby introduced their 08/09 after Bachmann had done theirs.

 

Welcome aboard, JE..!!

 

The Hornby 08 is a superior model, and sales might even have been boosted by the poor pickups on initial Bachmann releases. Suppose something catastrophic happens with the Heljan class 14, there might be a market for a cheaper teddy bear with less precise detailing. A similar senario has been suggested for the NRM's CoT, but I doubt Hornby could release a model of Truro that has been finished to the same standard for a vastly cheaper price without loosing alot of money on it. Having brought one, i'd say the GBP145 is a good price and would challenge anyone to build and paint a kit to the same standard for this price, likewise you'd be looking at more than the Class 14's RRP to have the same done to a Judith Edge kit.

[Western Scottish]

Their Std 4 4-6-0 came out about the same time as Hornby's so they are clearly willing to duplicate if they believe the models will sell.

 

The Bachmann Std was already well advanced when Hornby announced theirs and beat Hornby to the market by at least 6 months. so I think in this case Bachmann was past the point of no return. Who knows whether they intended to release a 14 in "OO" but with one in "N" it certainly seems plausible from sharing the R &D

[Jenny Emily]

The ??39 Crompton is hardly a fair comparison, if anything it's indicative of a poor business decision and overstocking of a less than popular livery. It's a bargain if you want to do a repaint or need the chassis for something else. It'd be interesting to see if the class 14 ends up being discounted, or if sales are hindered by the price tag.

 

I would agree that the quoted Heljan prices are very discounted. However it does show that there are still prices out there for new stuff that would have been unheard of in the 1990s. It was lucky for me that the departmental grey 33 was the exact livery I wanted to match an 09 and an 08 I have. They had a few others too at great prices.

 

If the 14 ends up getting so discounted, it will leave those who paid full price feeling somewhat jilted, and may actually put off any other manufacturer touching the class for a model subject in the near future. It would be more likely that Hattons would keep to the tradition of Norman Hatton, and still be selling the loco in forty years time (I remember the old shop, and the Hornby Dublo southern green super detail coaches in as new condition in the early 1990s). See it as a longterm investment.

 

 

Welcome aboard, JE..!!

 

The Hornby 08 is a superior model, ...

 

Thanks!

 

Indeed it is. I have one of the class 09s. Super running, and slightly better detail (in particular the side rods). With something like a class 08/09 though, with nearly a thousand real ones, and more different liveries carried than you could shake a stick at, they were always going to be a sure seller.

 

I have three troublesome Bachmann 08s. I am forever cleaning muck off the pickups - not a great idea to have them picking up from the running faces of the wheels, because they get gunged in all the rubbish off the track. However they are still admirable models for the price. I've bought one limited edition (faded and weathered 08507) and was more than happy to pay full RRP for it without a second thought. Mind you, prices have risen somewhat since then - I was clearing out my old room at my parents' house a few months back and came across the reciept - something like ??39 RRP back then direct from Bachmann.

[Pennine MC]

. Suppose something catastrophic happens with the Heljan class 14, there might be a market for a cheaper teddy bear with less precise detailing. A similar senario has been suggested for the NRM's CoT, but I doubt Hornby could release a model of Truro that has been finished to the same standard for a vastly cheaper price without loosing alot of money on it.

 

I must say I find this newly emerging phenomenon absolutely bizarre; that a model - that is being produced as an LE because the demand for it is perceived as being *limited* - should be produced by another manufacturer as 'competition'. IMO it's driven simply by people who want these models but dont like the price tag that goes with them

 

 

If the 14 ends up getting so discounted, it will leave those who paid full price feeling somewhat jilted, and may actually put off any other manufacturer touching the class for a model subject in the near future.

 

Dunno about jilted, in my case it's just the way it is and I accept that. I've stumped up full price for the 14 because I want one and I'm not prepared to take the risk of missing out by waiting (for either a discount or a fabled 'competitor'). Others who arent so bothered may well be lucky and if I've subsidised their cheap deal, so be it - on another model at another time, the situation might be reversed. As for the second point, see above

[Legend]

I think the point being made was that if Bachmann had made it , it would not have been a limited edition and therefore cost less.

 

I'm all for limited editions for items that are really of limited appeal eg Bullied leader, but I'm not sure the 14 fits in that category

 

Anyway while the presence of a Bachmann OO 14 may have been a possibility once- it almost certainly isn't now- so if you want one and have the cash- nows your chance.

[Pennine MC]

I think the point being made was that if Bachmann had made it , it would not have been a limited edition and therefore cost less.

 

Maybe. But it would have cost less whatever, because Bachmann's pricing structure is generally lower than Heljan or Hornby. But carried to its logical conclusion, you could argue that all new models should come from the most keenly-priced producer - it's not going to happen, is it

 

 

I'm all for limited editions for items that are really of limited appeal eg Bullied leader, but I'm not sure the 14 fits in that category

 

 

None of us are sure, that's the thing. I do appreciate though that in this instance, there's some apocryphal evidence that Barwell were working on one.

[298]

I don't think it really matters who makes it, the fact is it is only available through a single source (like the NRM's Deltic & City of Truro), who took the risk to produce a loco that hadn't previously been covered as an RTR model. And it's quite a big risk too, considering the number of RTR diesels available, often reproduced from a number of sources. The fact that the class 14 hadn't been covered could be enough of an indication that most manufacturers didn't think it would be a viable model. And considering the loco has been a subject of a number of kits probably means that anyone who really wanted one would have built their own by now or paid someone else to do so professionally.

 

So what's next...? Should Bachmann release a class 14...? Duplicated models are usually superceeded by better quality ones, yet (as Pennine says) the demand is only from those who think the RRP for this model is too high.

 

Meanwhile in Barwell, those funny electric locos with a pair of diamond frame pans must look appealing....

[Guest Phil]

I do very much agree with that general point Coach, that there is oodles of untapped potential with steam, compared with the relatively limited number of diesels that havent yet been touched. I'm not so sure though that market saturation isnt a red herring here.

 

I believe there is a considerable market for steam. moreso BR rather than Prenat, and I still think the pricetag holds considerable desireability. Whilst a big pacific takes you over the one hundred pound mark for a new loco, a mixed traffic six coupler at half the price becomes almost a whimsical purchase.

 

I made a visit a few months ago to a well known box shifter to buy the last one of ...... Whilst browsing round the showcases I spotted a loco I planned to acquire at some point in the future, an Ivatt 4MT at ??49. I decided to whack it on the plastic and pick it up there and then. Now I appreciate that was a discounted price - for whatever reason, but is that how more sellable a model loco is ?

 

You're essentially talking of two (in fact an infinite number of, really) different markets - the people who are wishlisting for the diesel types are doing so because there's little or nothing in the 'wider market' (i.e steam) that would interest them. I would stand by my own assertion that an improved range of Derby type 2s and *possibly* a 40 would be worthwhile - these would sell to the transitionalists but would be of little use to the post-Sector modeller (please dont anybody split hairs about dates here, I'm talking in general terms)

 

I do think though that quality models like the Super D, T9 and 04 can create a bit of their own market, and possibly induce thoughts of modelling a differnt period to that one would normally consider; I've always had a leaning towards the late survivors like 8Fs and Standards, but some of the pre-Group locos that now seem to have found favour are almost ridiculously tempting...

 

The pre groupers which survived into the late 1950s and early 60s may well have been considered antiques by the transition modeller, but I agree that the likes of the Super D, T9 and 04 really have brought a new vision to my modelling choices. I am prepared to look at a Midland 2F now and would certainly like an RTR LNWR radial tank, as well as a Stanier / Lemon 0-4-4 tank.

 

I must take issue with Coachmann though. Although some of those old GER etc locos would have been fairly geographically challenged, the Midland 2F and 3F family were considerably more widespread - perhaps also the LNWR equivalents. So returning to the OP, if Bachmann could bang out an 0-6-0 tender loco at a reasonable price (cheaper that the Margate equivalent) then it would have to be a popular seller - particularly wit ha BR crest on the tender.

[D6975]

How much for a loco?

 

As yet I've not paid over GBP100 for an RTR loco other than a second hand 'collectable' that I've since sold.

 

I will however I suspect be doing so before too long, Mr Murphy's forthcoming 071 is likely to be the first, and I want about six of those. (ouch!)

I would also pay that kind of money for a late 24 to the same standard as the Murphy 141. (anyone listening???) Again I'd have 5 or 6 of those.

 

DMUs I'd pay more for, after all a decent model of a 120 DMU for example would be the equivalent of a loco and 2 coaches, so GBP130+ is not unreasonable IMHO.

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

For me it comes down to 2 simple things location and disposable income. I look at the prices in the UK and think wow you guys got it lucky, thats cheap! Have you seen the prices we pay here in Perth, Australia?

 

I purchased the new R2817 Devon Belle Train pack and coach pack from the UK and purchased it at an excellent price, compared to Perth prices.

 

Perth Prices

 

http://hornbyshop.com/prestashop/product.php?id_product=1651

 

I may have bargained 10-15% off that price if I was a regular? Still expensive in my book.

 

Another example

 

Perth Prices

 

http://hornbyshop.com/prestashop/product.php?id_product=1261

 

UK Prices

 

Hattons price

 

http://www.ehattons.com/stockdetail.aspx?SID=32238

 

Same product and nearly a 45 GBP difference on 1 pullman observation coach!

 

So that is why I buy cheap new locos and rolling stock from the UK.

 

If Tornado had being released at 200 GBP I still would have purchased it because I wanted it and thats the disposable income part for me.

 

To be honest guys complaining about expensive models in the UK just falls on deaf ears with me...

 

You have never had it so good but you still complain....Hmmmmm ahhhh well that's human nature!

 

Martin