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One of the things I found a bit difficult, was finding details of the harness etc., arrangements, I eventually got there. I know I model in 4mm scale and therefore small detail is lost, so is not worth adding ? But as a retired Engineer, I like to know how things work, are arranged etc., then I go off ...........

Often the driver just sat to one side on a few (empty) sacks.

Ah, a pilot engine!

Why am I now seeing ads for hose-drawn carriages?

Has to be different! If you have a one - axle cart, the shafts have to attach to the horse in such a way that the cart cannot tip forwards (weight on the horse’s withers) or backwards (lifting the horse by means of its girth strap). if you were to do this on a two axle cart, you’d either crush the poor horse as you lifted the front axle off the ground, or the horse would be dangling from its girth straps! Of course with a badly loaded single axle cart... not great for the poor horse

I think harness detail is definitely worth it in 4mm scale. But I have to set up the layout every time I want to run something - which doesn't take long but does mean that detailed harness is impractical so far, especially as the vehicles are stored like this: Looking at photos suggested that the harness arrangement for fixed shaft one-axle vehicles were a bit different from moving ones. Here's a small float with what seems to have been a typical arrangement. One photo of a single-axle GWR vehicle shows extra padding added to relieve the strain on the back of the horse.

There were, I believe, plenty of uses for dead horse.

I think life for a working horse was quite hard, and littl3 to compare with today’s horses, which are, for 5he most part, hobby animals, in a far more caring society. apart from the wagon loads of horse manure that was shipped out of big cities daily, (which has been a previous discussion in these hallowed halls) I rather suspect a fair number of beasts turned their toes (or hooves) skyward each day. Of course, the railways could afford convalescent horses. Steptoe & son could not, and if the horse didn’t work, likely they didn’t eat. And within living memory too. I was born in 1958, so this is marginally before my time. “The horse was king, and almost everything grew around him: fodder, smithies, stables, paddocks, distances and the rhythm of our days. His eight miles an hour was the limit of our movements, as it had been since the days of the Romans. That eight miles an hour was life and death, the size of our world, our prison…Then, to the scream of the horse, the change began. The brass-lamped motor car came coughing up the road. Soon the village would break, dissolve and scatter, become no more than a place for pensioners.” (Laurie Lee's description of village life before the motor car - Cider with Rosie, 1959) There were about 3.5 million horses in the uk at the turn of the 1900’s. Assuming a twenty year life, that would suggest nigh on 500 dying each day. That’s around 200 tons of dead horse to dispose of, daily! atb Simon

Don, You're right, and, additionally, my guesstimation of an average horse life was way out too, they didn’t live anything like that long in hard service. My 20 years was far too modern, hobby-horse, not working horse a century ago. atb Simon

Nice work and lovely models. But I wonder: I am not so sure, at least as far as the SDJR and MSWJR are concerned. what goods would be shipped from customers on those lines to Sheraton Abbas? A lot of such traffic might be local enough to use local carters, or be local produce and therefore in competition with local suppliers, but with the added cost of transport by rail. Certainly in your chosen era, the only way the wagons would return to their home systems loaded would be where specific arrangements had been made. They would mostly be returned empty and pdq at that to avoid demurrage charges. Most branchlines saw inward movements of coal (PO wagons) and cattle (own company wagons, because cattle have to be taken off trains at regular intervals, so would be loaded onto fresh wagons belonging to a new company if travelling from one system to another) and miscellaneous goods via transshipment sheds in “station wagons” or the van of a passenger train. Other inward shipments might be manure (in home company wagons, from stables or major centres on the home system) or other forms of fertiliser. Beyond that, unless there is a specific traffic, then the most likely wagons will be from companies setting major ports and manufacturing centres, so the most likely wagons would be home system for a GWR branch (London, Bristol, Plymouth, Birmingham, etc) or the bigger railway fleets: LNWR, MR, NER, GNR, NBR, CR. Maybe LYR and GER, but other than agricultural implements and machines, the latter is possibly less likely. Putting my head above the parapet, I am going to suggest that you have too many SDJR wagons, and need to replace some with the occasional foreigner from further afield! Although if there are photos around to prove me wrong, someone please point us in the right direction!

An alternative starting point for the S&DJR 5-plank wagon would be the Slaters kit - a bit of extra work needed to make the raised ends but at least the axleboxes look more the thing. The S&DJR had a large number of 5-plank wagons of the Midland type - around half their wagon fleet - the majority of which were of standard appearance, without the raised ends, though some had a metal sheet rail. Some had the Ellis 10A grease axleboxes, with the lugs, while earlier ones has the narrower-looking 8A axleboxes, as on the road van (though I'll come on to that). All, however, had the local Highbridge adaptations of chunky doorstop and long brake lever. Here's my attempt in 4 mm/ft scale, using the Slaters kit (towards end of post): If you are interested in my artwork for S&DJR numberplates, please do get in touch. @Mikkel's mentioned his 4 mm/ft scale model of the very same road van; he's modestly not drawn attention to the skill required in starting from the Slaters kit for a 16'6" Midland van: Some of these - fifty I think - were built at Derby and others by S.J. Clay I think (I don't have Russ Garner's Registers to hand); from the date of build, 1896, and indeed the photo, it's evident that these vans had the Ellis 10A axleboxes not the 8A boxes Furness have given it. Incidentally, these S&DJR road vans were virtually identical to a batch of 200 tariff vans (different name, same function) the Midland had built for its own use around the same time, except the Midland version had a two-pane widow in the end. The same design (without the windows) was used for the first lot of banana vans. Apologies, I'm away from my copy of Midland Wagons so can't give chapter and verse on diagrams, drawing nos. and lot nos.

Thanks Tim. I do have a small problem to resolve - the rivet at the expansion link/eccentric rod joint occasionally catches the connecting rod. It needs a little more clearance. Robin

A huge number of horses were "borrowed " for military service in 1914-on. which would rather upset the above calculation.

MrsD would not necessarily agree... Season’s Greetings! Simon

Tony Atkins discusses an 1869 survey of the economy of the GWR's horse stock (admittedly a rather early date). He has a comment that captures the no-nonsense approach (vol 1 p66 of GW Goods Cartage): "the initial quality of bought-in animals, and the work they had to do, governed the average length of service of GWR horses which was, at that time, about 6 years. Taking into account the amounts received for worn-out and disabled horses, carcases and manure, a depreciation rate of 16% was employed by the GW". Later the average length of service for a horse seems to have improved. @Simond, that's a nice quote by Lauire Lee. I read his Spanish book recently, must see if I can get hold of Cider with Rosie. I have a driver in the making. Some GWR designs had a built-in box for the driver to sit on, while in other cases it seems to have been "loose"-fitted. I expect some drivers simply improvised. The following photos show driver's boxes. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd745.htm https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd748.htm The last one is a favourite picture of mine, and also shows a 'chain horse' in use.

I'd hazard a guess that resting horses were essentially spares, that inferred from Mikkel's quoting of Janet Russell.

Can't add anything of use to the working lives of the horses discussion, but I will ask my neighbour (a vetinary nurse who until recently specialised in Horse injuries when she returns from holiday. ..But the driver appears to have to stand within the cart body as there is no seat or foot-rest, although he would have some protection from the weather under the tarp.

Looking really nice. I wonder if it might be effective to cut off the bottom few inches of the backscene to bring the horizon lower down, to make the layout seem wider and more expansive?