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All explained on the Templot web site: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/real_track.php#planing_types Martin.
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Patrick I have one of the 1-6 jigs, designed for c0de 75 to 100 flatbottom rail, but also code 75 bullhead works in it. Very easy to use if expensive, but repays itself in time saving and accuracy Templot 3D is for bullhead rail, however the reusable filing jigs for both common crossings and switch rails are some of the best around, certainly the most versatile and cheapest, but bullhead only -
Hi Alan, I’m no expert here but I think what I do is called a “set” in the diverging stock rail. I’m fairly sure that I have heard it referred to as that by Martin Wynne and Norman Solomon. It’s a kink that allows the stock rail to diverge at an angle that exactly matches the taper of the planing on the blade. The arrow below points to where the set is, unhelpfully hidden by the gauge - but then you have to maintain the gauge right up to the set so it’s not a surprise. Now where my expertise definitely gets shaky - I think that on the Great Western they did things differently as usual, and they used a joggle which I tentatively describe as a minute S bend to joggle the stock rail outwards leaving room for the blade to fit. Iain EDIT: Rereading that, the arrow is one timber too far to the left. The line denoting the set is on the Templot plan, one timber to the right so it matches where the tip of the blade fits.
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Hi thanks for the advice. But no experience of 3d printing or making 3d printing files, so very steep learning curve. The templot jigs are bullhead I believe. I can use the Fast Track jigs straight out of the box and I need my second prototype, with all the design changes, for a show in a few weeks time as well as a 3rd prototype for my test track which is getting an update in May 24. Will starting the second prototype this weekend and hopefully finish by Monday 6th. Patrick -
Hi Iain, Fantastic work as always, and by far the most difficult section of the entire arrangement. So glad you went back over the double crossings on the north yard entry/exit roads, reliability will be key there, for both staying on the road and turnout operation. Templot is a great piece of software, hats off to Martin Wynne. Best regards, plus a little inspiration from (as you would know) Douglas Doherty, all those years ago......
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I also finished what I hope will be the final turnout for Camden Shed Mk2, and thought it might be worth documenting. In case I forget how to do it. It’s a basic B6 on the coal road approach to the turntable. Lay the template and add a thin strip of double sided tape: I tend to annotate the template with timber lengths and the number of chairs of each type (I know it’s on the templot template already but just makes it a bit more noticeable. Also I may reduce the prescribed number of slide chairs by one). Add the timbers (I pre cut these in batches of different lengths in bulk). I then lay the straight stock rail, or rather the one that must follow the curvature. On the 4 mainlines, it was crucial to get a smooth continuation of the very shallow curve through all the formations. I find this a lot easier if I lay the main stock rail first and build the rest off that. I know some lay the vee first, and I tried that but never quite got on with it. Chairs opposite the check rail, and close to the slide chairs, are partly trimmed to fit in preparation. I also add the slide chairs at this point, glued to the web and underside of the stock rail with a tiny bead of cyano, and left to dry while I……. ……make the vee. Rail pieces filed in the jig and then soldered together using the jig to ensure alignment. This one hasn’t been dressed down with fine file and 1200 grit paper yet. To be continued as I’ve run out of megabytes Iain
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Were there ever any 5-way points?
melmerby replied to Peter Kazmierczak's topic in UK Prototype Questions
On Templot ones with overlapping blades are 3 throw, sequential ones are 3 way tandem Here's a couple of 3 throw and a tandem for good luck (curved as well!): I think there is another 3 throw far left. EDIT one of my original picks is another tandem, so 2 three throw and 2 3 way tandem. -
@MikuMatt81 Hi, You haven't lost the plot, and all is not lost. 🙂 You just need to think in terms of industrial turnouts, and get into Templot. Industrial turnouts are very often flat-bottom, but not always. You can find plenty of very short bullhead turnouts in old industrial sidings. The Peco Set-Track turnouts are very close to a 9ft-1:3.75 bullhead turnout, having a model radius of 18 inches in 00 gauge. Here I have overlaid one in Templot on the Peco plan which you posted: If you get into 3D printing that would be very easy to build. Templot can create all the files you need to create this on 3D printers, and the filing jigs needed to make the rail parts: See about Plug Track at: https://85a.uk/templot/club/ Martin. -
Reflection on Jigs, How to bend flat bottom rail. Next steps. Two of the jigs critical to scratch track building are the crossing vee and the switchblades. Whilst these are available for bullhead, none, as far as I am aware, are available for flat bottom rail. And if making them oneself, neither are there any jigs. Martin Wynne, of Templot fame, has developed and 3D printed such jigs, but I think once again, they are for bullhead rail. in any case I don't own a 3D printer...! The only solution viable solution to the crossing vee jig issue are those made by Fast Tracks although the switchblade part of the jig is obviously of no use for shallow depth switch rails. Moreover, they are single size per jig, unlike 4 sizes per jig like the current bullhead offerings, and quite expensive; both the items and shipping. With a need for 2 x 1:8, 5 x 1:10 and 5 x 1:12, and made up bullhead crossing vees costing £22 (the flat bottom would be similar) the cost is £264 plus shipping, say £12, so £276 total. The cost of 3 jigs and shipping from Canada is £176 including shipping. Add in 20% VAT and possible 10% customs and the cost rises to £229. So, have bitten the bullet and ordered. I did notice when browsing that the Fast Track Jigs come in various styles. I ordered one #12 Point Form Filing Jig and a #8 and #10 Crossing Point Form Filing Jig. The crossing point form filing jigs are the same as the point form filing jig but with an additional angle for making the sharper vees for double crossovers. It increased the overall bill by £3. So the 1:8 has an additional 1:4 crossing vee slot, whilst the 1:10 has an additional 1:5 crossing vee slot. Whilst these ratios do not match those required for a UK double crossing, they might be useful for other purposes. Somebody did suggest on an american forum just buying the 1:12 as then you can make any angle you want down to 1:4 simply by filling in with solder. See why their trains don't go very fast..!! The solution for the switchblades might be simpler, I think the bullhead switchblade jig can be used, at least for part of the process. One of the issues I had when bending flat bottom rail to make wing/check rails is that is distorts the rail so one leg of the wing/check rail is raised and may be twisted. This means the rail does not sit flat and the railhead is misaligned. The solution is to file a v slot into the foot of the rail just up to the web, maybe slightly less, on the side where the bend is to be made inwards. The rail can then be bent with minimal distortion. Image on the left with the 'nick' and on the right without. Notice the rail has lifted and twisted when the other half of the wing/check rail is held flat. Hopefully, I am not teaching people to suck eggs on bending rail..! Whilst I await the jigs from Canada I will make a common crossing assembly jig. I only have 3 sizes, so not complicated. Patrick
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Yes. As others have said, the geometry is compromised WRT real track geometry but that’s not the point (no pun intended!) of your proposal. Templot is intended to draw models of real track, not toy train track (which is what Peco Setrack is, really) and would be overkill for your experiment. But later on…who knows where you’ll go? 😁 I did the same thing when I started in N gauge in the 1970s, using copper clad sleepers and secondhand Peco rail over a printed Peco setrack point template stuck to a block of wood. I used track pins with their heads cut off pushed into the wood to hold the rail ends over the template. (Copying what I’d seen Mike Cook do with SMP point kits on his South Devon layout.) They didn’t look “real” (but neither does Setrack) but they worked - running was a bit rough mind you until I realised I hadn’t filed the switch rail ends & stock rail joggles properly and the common crossings were always a bit of a bodge (I was using FB rail in my ignorance - it’ll be easier with BH) but it was fun and I was *so* chuffed - “look dad, I’ve made my own points!” *Then* I started learning about prototype track geometry… (but also about beer and girls, which slowed down the modelling a lot.) The Peco point templates (intended for track planning purposes) are downloadable from their website - find the point you need and the template should also be there. (We used to have to send off for printed ones by post enclosing two or three inlay strips from a length of Peco flex track!) As I said, good luck! Will be interested to see the results. RichardT -
Hi Richard, I would very much like to go ahead and try it out, there are two things i need to clarify in my head first. 1. I would obviously need a template to work from, could this be put together in something like Templot (which I obviously have no experience of yet) ? or perhaps I could simply base the build off a template of the Peco set track point? (im not sure if Peco might have one handy?). 2. I would need to know what parts to buy, perhaps there is a suitible kit I could butcher? regards, -
Hayfields Springside Models rebuilds
hayfield replied to hayfield's topic in Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding
The missing castings for both locos arrived a couple of weeks ago, the gears for the Manning Wardle arrived earlier this week. We have had family staying plus I have now been asked to do some track 3D printing and assist someone plan their layout in Templot, so my mind has been elsewhere First off the missing step has been built and fitted, after this photo I primed the area, so now I need to get the airbrush working Alsi I have replaced both the worm and gear wheel, since the motor mount was set up for the other gear set I now need to mesh these new gears
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It feels very self-indulgent to be writing about a project that hasn't yet made it off my laptop, but I've been told following a throwaway comment elsewhere on RMweb that musing and planning is also of interest, so here goes. The first couple of posts will be mainly back story explaining how I arrived at Trawsfynydd as a prototype, so bear with me while I get to the topic in the header! The story starts in the late 90s when a studious, bespectacled 10 year old spied an advert in the local paper for 20 years of Railway Modeller back-issues. Excited perusal under the covers when he was meant to be sleeping brought a huge variety of models into his consciousness, but one unassuming article really stood out. Plan of the month in January 1988 (by K. Jaggers) consisted of a single black-and-white photo of Bala Junction, with a track plan showing this station on one side of a room and Bala Town on the other. Our studious hero was struck by how interesting the plan was, so different to the usual double-track mainline with branch modelled so often in the other magazines. He even drew the plan out by hand to understand it better, thinking to himself that one day he would like a version of the same plan. Fast forward 20-years and our hero has finished school, sixth form and university, fulfilled a lifelong ambition by volunteering on a preserved railway, enjoyed a career, been made redundant from said career and ended up pulling levers on the big railway for a living. All throughout this there was model railway involvement, most significantly with the NW Surrey area group of the EMGS, where the benefits of finescale 4mm modelling in terms of appearance and running qualities overcame the need to just 'get something running'. Various layouts have been planned, started and discarded, always depicting compressed fictional locations that were never quite satisfactory. Bala and Bala Junction lurking in the background didn't help; very desirable but always far beyond the means available. A house move 18 months ago finally presented an opportunity; the previous owner of this forever home had converted a former garage into a sizeable office, complete with mod-cons like heating, electricity and access from the house though a very civilised internal door. This was it, the opportunity to scratch that 25-year Bala itch! Planning began before purchase was even completed, resulting in the plan below being drawn up in Templot: The plan was to be a two-tier affair, run to a timetable with a minimum curve radius of 3'. I (the hero, obviously...) even got so far as doing a full-size print off and play-testing to check that the timetabled moves would be doable in the space provided; they would, just about. It should be pointed out that the soon-to-be Mrs BenW and the family hound were both away for a week while I took over the lounge - I'm still studious and frankly a bit obsessive, but not a complete sociopath! There were a number of complications with this plan, most obviously how to gain access to the fiddle yards beneath the stations. Gradients? Train elevators? Cassettes? Sector plates? All very complicated but not completely insurmountable, especially given that this was the layout of a lifetime. Sure there were also the compromises to fit it all in the space, especially the curve that Bala Town had to be built on, but surely I could manage to see past these. What finally scuppered this plan was that most humble of railway activities, the shunting of the goods yard. To be continued...
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@Wayne Kinney Hi Philip, Just to clarify that there is no connection between Wayne Kinney and myself. We are not two of anything. Wayne is trading as the proprietor of BritishFinescale and supplier of the Finetrax kits. Templot software is my hobby project available for use by anyone free of charge. I am not trading commercially. Martin.
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@lezz01 I hope you won't think too badly of me, but it's RTP (ready to plonk) track - flat bottomed Code 75 from Peco. Bullhead would have been good for the goods yards at Pontrilas and Ledbury, unfortunately that boat sailed ages ago as I'd bought all my rail before the bullhead was announced. I've got about 150yds of track and 68 points to lay and whilst hand built pointwork would have been most excellent, I feel time isn't on my side and I would become quickly frustrated if I didn't construct the first point perfectly. I've been looking at the Templot programme together with the British Finetrax pointwork (from the two Wynnes), but I'd have to redo all my drawing for the pointwork and there'd be a learning curve for both. However, I have seen how to 'flex' Peco pointwork to achieve better flow through junctions AND I did see somewhere (perhaps on RMWeb - though I can't remember clearly) drawings showing proper sleeper spacing when doing 60 foot panels. I could be tempted by that to make the trackwork less 'samey'. A sharp craft knife and a simple jig would sort that out. No photo today, but I have been extremely occupied - I'll tell you all tomorrow ;))). Cheers, Philip
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The Goal I have two basic objectives for this layout - exploring new skills, and providing somewhere interesting to shuffle a few wagons around until I can build a larger/more permanent layout. In terms of track plan, the features I was looking for are: shunting uses on-scene paintwork if possible, and not a sector plate or traverser simple S&C, preferably including a diamond, to see how I get on building track plenty of car spots, to give purposeful activity realistic layout, plausible wagon variety Space is not particularly constrained - I want to keep this small, cheap, manageable, and moveable, because I'll be moving in 3 years, but the only definite limits are that it has to be less than 9' × 4'6" (including fiddle yard) and I certainly don't plan to fill that space. The Plan I was hunting around the old OS maps for inspiration and found the northwest side of Railway Dock, in Hull (for context, Trinity Dock Street Bridge is inspired by the northeast side). Viewed from the cemetery, there's convenient scenic breaks at both ends, and a run of buildings along the back. By squinting at Britain from Above's photographs (especially this and this) they appear to be wooden sheds, but I'm considering swapping one of them for one of the brick-built transhipment sheds between the railway and Humber Dock, because of the interesting weathering. The site also seems good because it has car spots at the transshipment shed, a crane on the curved loop, a weighbridge by the crane which would need to be unloaded before it can be locked to allow a locomotive over, and so on. As a first rough concept sketch, I put this together with setrack to get an idea of sizes (small loose-heel switches seem most plausible for the location and date it was laid out). The loop marked "6 wagons" is around scale length, but the segment marked '8 wagons" should be more like 14, so when I draw it in Templot I'll try to tweak the proportions. Having thought about it a bit more, it would probably be better to slant the tracks so that there is room at the left hand end for a barge or coaster, to make the view across the docks to the backscene more convincing and to break up the regimented alignment A peculiarity of that particular location is that it is accessed from a kick-back off a track alongside Prince's Dock (now under the Princes Quay carpark) with no way for a loco to run round, so it seems likely that trains would be propelled on- and off-scene. Questions Can anyone think of operational problems/frustrations with this design? I envision the sequence being a train arrives and is stashed in a loop, empty/reloaded wagons are collected from the crane and warehouse (leaving behind those which still need loading), and the incoming wagons are spotted at the right location for unloading, then the loaded wagons leave. Assuming someone doesn't know what was actually there, do you think I should attempt to make that diamond into a slip? It is marked as a diamond in the OS maps but in 1937 and 1952 photos there's some fuzzy curves that could possibly be slip roads on the inland (bottom) side. Do you see any benefit in terms of "play value" to stretching the right hand loop out to full scale? Uncompressed, the prototype scenic area is 586' long, which would be 2.34m so I could fit it but I don't think it adds anything. Do you know of any sources with photos of that side of the dock before it was redeveloped? There are loads of photos of the other side with its distinctive buildings, but the only photos of this side I've found so far are aerial photos in the Britain from Above collection, most of which are focused on somewhere else but have tantalising hints of interesting details, especially the earlier photos.
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Not yet as all I have to show is a Templot file and a timetable at the moment, but I’ll post a link here as and when I get going. In the meantime it’s building research at the moment; in particular measurements/drawing of the station buildings and goods shed. The station seems to have been pretty camera shy from the books I’ve seen.
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Certainly trying to create some of the designs using Templot shows up some issues with tight radii.
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Hayfields 3D printed track workshop
hayfield replied to hayfield's topic in Handbuilt Track & Templot
The difficulties I have had with some of the Bricks** were totally down to human intervention and not Templot, having drawn up a crossover using Templot automated crossover facility, its only takes slightly more effort to make it 3D printable than producing a brick** for a single turnout . The main issue is that this project was started as Templot producing a 2D plan and had two people indpendantly working on it over several months plus changing the size of turnouts. Sorry if I seem to be making it look much harder than it should be ** Brick(s) is the terminology for each printable section Brick 5 under way
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Tom Its very easy to get terminology wrong, I seem to do it all the time. Likewise we are always talking about switch and crossing angles when we talk about turnouts, so its an easy mistake to include it into the conversation about slips. Then when you get erstwhile sources talk about points, when in reality they are talking about turnouts. Lets face it when I was young turnouts purporting to be scale were classified in Radii not sizes. But I guess at times in various subjects we all fall into similar traps The problem lies in RTR turnouts where the tip of the blades terminate between timbers, which is totally non prototypical. The problem is that even manufacturers at times get it wrong, I brought/was supplied a timber Diamond fret described as EM/P4. Simply it cannot be both as Martin explained. Certainly for EM gauge it was too long if you wanted both Vees supported on timbers. I think sometimes the more we learn about a subject we realise the less we know. Wayne has done a super job with his kits and as you say they work very well. I don't recognize Templot moving the length of switch blades, but I guess this may be something some modellers do to make life easier. Flangeway clearances are usually set by the modeller with most setting them to gauge requirements rather than to scale Thanks for contributing, that's how we learn from each other
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Sorry Martin, Templot is a wonderful resource. Tom -
This is an OPTION in Templot. You can set it to whatever you want: I get a bit irritated when folks say Templot does this, or Templot does that. Templot is a workshop TOOL -- it does whatever you set it to do. cheers, Martin.
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Now I'm confused. I thought the A and B in A5 B7 of these Turnouts and Slips referred to switch size as per this table: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/real_track.php If you change the Switch Size in Templot using "Template" then "Switch Settings" an A5 is extended when you change it to B5. Isn't that what The Fatadder is asking about? What am I missing here? -
Big locos certainly look good and run well through the Finetrax 1:7 slips. I believe in Templot t for a double slip the blade tips start one further timber towards the centre to allow space and clearance for soldering to the tie bar arrangement and for flange clearance. Single slips could be one timber closer to the V crossings, and that maybe the default for a single in Templot. Wayne’s singles use the same spacing as the doubles. Initially I was wondering if it was worth extending the blades on the singles somehow, but the only solution would have been to do a lot of butchery or start from scratch and Wayne’s just are too good for that :-)
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Hi Rich, The switch size doesn't make any difference to the overall size of the slip which is governed only by the crossing angle and the track gauge. If you used the make slip function in Templot, a 1:7 slip will have B-type switches. It doesn't matter whether you start from an A-7 turnout or a B-7 turnout, the 1:7 slip will have B-type switches. I believe Wayne uses the same Templot designs for the Finetrax kits. The kits are supplied with suitable machined switch blades, so there is no actual need to be concerned with the size of the switch. The only way to create a 1:7 slip with A-type switches would be to create it yourself in Templot using multiple partial templates, instead of using the make slip function. It would still fit in the same overall size footprint as a 1:7 slip with B-type blades. cheers, Martin.
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