Midland Region Milk trains

[GWR8700]

Hi, I've been trying to find some information on milk trains in the BR Midland Region but I've had no real luck so far.  How long would these milk trains have been on average?  Would they have had a standard brake van at the rear or a full brake coach and what locomotives would they have been pulled by?

[John_Miles]

So far as i know, the trains were hauled by express engines. I have a photo on one leaving Rowsley with a Patriot on the front. Appelby was another place where milk trains originated and these were sometimes hauled by Scots. In earlier days, Compounds and Belpaire class 3 4-4-0s were used. The trains were relatively short, no more than 8 to 10 tanks so far as I remember.

[GWR8700]

So far as i know, the trains were hauled by express engines. I have a photo on one leaving Rowsley with a Patriot on the front. Appelby was another place where milk trains originated and these were sometimes hauled by Scots. In earlier days, Compounds and Belpaire class 3 4-4-0s were used. The trains were relatively short, no more than 8 to 10 tanks so far as I remember.

Thanks, do you know what liveries I would be able to use for the 'EXPRESS DAIRIES' wagons in the 1950s?

[Holmesfeldian]

What RTR model would best represent the Rowsley examples, please ?

I plan to include milk wagons on my proposed peak district layout.

[Rowsley17D]

Hi, good to have another modeller wanting to do the Peak District. According to Bill Hudson "Through Limestone Hills" (you should get yourself a copy as it is a must for Peak Line modellers) tankers were attached to local passenger trains and taken to Derby for forwarding to London. I don't know how this manoeuvre was carried out. Tankers were also taken by express goods direct to London as well. Empties were no doubt dropped off in a similar way. Dapol do the 3-axle version of the Express Dairies tankers in early and late liveries. See link: http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=177_60_85_121&limit=25

[stovepipe]

Milk train shunting at Appleby with an Ivatt 4MT.

 

https://flic.kr/p/bDy9AH

 

In 1960 the regular milk train originated in Carlisle at 7.15 pm each weekday, picking up additional tankers at Appleby, getting to Skipton just before 10pm, and then on to Cricklewood. No brake is visible in the photo, but it would normally be a passenger brake van, 6 or 8 wheel like in this photo at the same location.

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/90748265-british-railways-class-8f-2-8-0-steam-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=X7WJLa88Cweo9HktRLaNXn069BFg%2Fz3prtgEmgRWKB2MxDFcjfmSXUw%2FkQcNVMfasfvxg1QYS4rl2T7PSDecMtr%2BqM4H7Ril0Jf8sIau5%2BY%3D

 

The dairy at Appleby was operated by Express, but the tankers are so dirty it's hard to make any markings out.

[stovepipe]

And a pretty decent article on LMS Milk Traffic.

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/images/historical/milk/lmsj_milk_pdf.pdf

[Holmesfeldian]

Hi, good to have another modeller wanting to do the Peak District. According to Bill Hudson "Through Limestone Hills" (you should get yourself a copy as it is a must for Peak Line modellers) tankers were attached to local passenger trains and taken to Derby for forwarding to London. I don't know how this manoeuvre was carried out. Tankers were also taken by express goods direct to London as well. Empties were no doubt dropped off in a similar way. Dapol do the 3-axle version of the Express Dairies tankers in early and late liveries. See link: http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=177_60_85_121&limit=25

 

Hi - Bill's book is a bit of a bible and I cherish my copy.

 

Here's the inside of the Express Dairy at Rowsley...

 

 

I guess this is the one to go for...

 

http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_60_85_121&product_id=1801

Edited January 15, 2016 by Holmesfeldian

[Karhedron]

Hi, I've been trying to find some information on milk trains in the BR Midland Region but I've had no real luck so far.  How long would these milk trains have been on average?  Would they have had a standard brake van at the rear or a full brake coach and what locomotives would they have been pulled by?

Milk train length varied depending on the service in question. It also varied with time of year, cows producing up to 50% more milk in the summer months than in the winter. Limits were usually based on the fact that loaded tankers weighed 28 tons (almost as much as a passenger coach). Different classes of loco would normally have guidelines as to how many tons they could haul over the gradients they would encounter. These could be well in excess of 400 tons (15-ish tankers) for a powerful express loco and somewhat less for a mixed traffic engine.

 

Motive power varied but was almost always a mixed traffic or express engine. Milk was a perishable product and the tankers were rated to run at passenger speeds hence freight locos were rarely used. For the same reason, the brake vehicle would normally have been a passenger brake coach rather than a freight brake van. These were usually older vehicles that had been displaced from front-line service. Even into BR days, pre-nationalisation vehicles were the rule. I have never seen a Mk1 BG on a milk train. On the LMS, the 6-wheeled Stove-R was popular on milk trains due to its low weight although the 50' Stannier brakes were also common. In general, this vehicle rarely carried much apart from the Guard himself so the smaller the better.

 

Prior to around 1960, you would also sometimes get vans carrying milk churns. Originally, all milk was carried this way until the introduction of the first tankers. From that point on, the proportion of churn traffic fell steadily and finally vanished. I have not been able to find an exact date for the end of churn traffic but it seems to have been about 5-6 years after the strike of 1955.

 

Here are some examples of milk on the LMS which help to give you an idea of the variety of motive power used and the make-up of rakes. Mix of milks, empties and pick-ups.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/8244490289/in/faves-39347043@N07/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/8151378768/in/faves-39347043@N07/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/6709996375/in/faves-39347043@N07/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/6988550541/in/faves-39347043@N07/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcs-pics/6168405753/in/faves-39347043@N07/

Edited January 15, 2016 by Karhedron

[Alister_G]

Just curious, and sorry for the slight drift off-topic, but would eggs be handled by the Express dairy at Rowsley, and would they also be classed as express traffic?

 

Cheers,

 

Al.

[jonny777]

Here are two screen grabs from Marsden Rail video #3 - Carlisle.

 

They are from the early 60s and show a Jinty shunting milk tanks at Carlisle station, followed by a train of them being taken forward by a class 40.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

The use of class 40s on milk trains lasted virtually until the end of the traffic. Here is a shot of an empties train in 1979.Curiously it is heading for Swindon, not London (milk for London on the MR was gone by the 70s). Best guess I can make is that excess summer milk was being taken to be turned into cheese and other processed products at whatever creameries had spare capacity.

 

[roythebus]

I'd suggest the reason BR Mk1 brake vehicles weren't used was because they had no stoves! Pre-BR vans often had coal fired stoves. Can't have the guard getting cold for hours can we?

[RANGERS]

The use of class 40s on milk trains lasted virtually until the end of the traffic. Here is a shot of an empties train in 1979.Curiously it is heading for Swindon, not London (milk for London on the MR was gone by the 70s). Best guess I can make is that excess summer milk was being taken to be turned into cheese and other processed products at whatever creameries had spare capacity.

 

Where was the shot of the 40 taken? I'd have thought by that time, all the remaining milk traffic would have been concentrated on the Western but the 40 suggests an inter-regional train.

[Karhedron]

Where was the shot of the 40 taken? I'd have thought by that time, all the remaining milk traffic would have been concentrated on the Western but the 40 suggests an inter-regional train.

 

Croome with train of milk tanks from Carlisle to Swindon. Photograph taken by Robert Cooke on 7th June 1979.

[Fat Controller]

Croome with train of milk tanks from Carlisle to Swindon. Photograph taken by Robert Cooke on 7th June 1979.

It's worth seeking out the book by my old colleague, Stephen Poole, called 'Beyond The Crumbling Edge'. At about the time that photo was taken, he was one of the Controllers dedicated to WR milk traffic. Whilst the regular flows were within the WR, albeit to London area terminals on the SR and ER, he said there were additional services laid on to the North West with milk for cheese-making.

[davetheroad]

I'd suggest the reason BR Mk1 brake vehicles weren't used was because they had no stoves! Pre-BR vans often had coal fired stoves. Can't have the guard getting cold for hours can we?

Would that include any LNWR or MR or LMS vehicles

[Fat Controller]

Would that include any LNWR or MR or LMS vehicles

The LMS 6-wheel Passenger Brake was often referred to as the 'Stove R'. Doubtless, there were similar vans in the Pre-Grouping fleets. David Larkin's 'BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock- Volume 2' has a lot of photos of milk tanks, as well as such rarities as the North Staffordshire Railway milk vans, which lasted into the mid-1950s on traffic from Ashbourne to Euston.

[jamie92208]

The Midland did have a lot of 6 wheel passenger brakes to D530. both corridor and non corridor as well as 6 wheel and 4 wheel milk vans.  Slaters's do a 6 wheeler in 7mm and someone does a 4 wheeler.

 

Jamie

[GWR8700]

Thanks guys!  So would the livery of the milk tanks on the Midland Region just after the War have been the standard 'EXPRESS DAIRY' livery?  In the photos they looked to be white (albeit very grubby) but I thought that Express Dairy was used on the midland region?

Edited January 21, 2016 by GWR8700

[Karhedron]

Thanks guys!  So would the livery of the milk tanks on the Midland Region just after the War have been the standard 'EXPRESS DAIRY' livery?  In the photos they looked to be white (albeit very grubby) but I thought that Express Dairy was used on the midland region?

Just after the war there might still have been some in blue livery with white lettering. These would have been dwindling in number and would have been steadily replaced with silver (not white) liveried examples. All the colourful liveries from pre-war days were slowly replaced by silver as time went by with just a small plate on the side denoting owning dairy.

 

Express Dairies were certainly used on the MR but were not the only concern operating there. Express Dairies, MMB and Nestle all had concerns there.

 

The photo below shows a nice short milk train with the leading vehicle in united dairies "UD" livery. The tankers behind look to be in a darker livery so could be pre-war Express Dairies. I am not sure of the date of the photo. The black 5 looks to have its original LMS number (I think) so I am guessing it is pre-nationalisation.

 

[Fat Controller]

The 'silver livery' was, in reality, the unpainted aluminium sheeting that covered the insulation surrounding the tank. This seemed to tarnish very quickly, whether from the effects of spilt milk or from atmospheric pollution, I wouldn't like to say. The wagons were possessed of a certain, unforgettable, odour, I recollect, which was only partially masked by the exhaust of the Western, the preferred power for the trains from West Wales. Towards the end, the idea of painting the lagging seemed to return, so there'd be orange, white and blue 'St Ivel' tanks amongst the grubby ones.

[Karhedron]

One thing to bear in mind is that rakes of tankers from a variety of dairies would have been fairly common in your period. Only later during the consolidation of the industry during the late 50s and 60s would Unigate and Express become 2 big suppliers running dedicated trains. Prior to that, it was common for trains to pick up milk from dairies owned by different companies on their way to the capital.

 

I have workings for milk trains on the WR showing the sort of mix one might expect but sadly I do not have the same information for the MR.

[jamie92208]

Just after the war there might still have been some in blue livery with white lettering. These would have been dwindling in number and would have been steadily replaced with silver (not white) liveried examples. All the colourful liveries from pre-war days were slowly replaced by silver as time went by with just a small plate on the side denoting owning dairy.

 

Express Dairies were certainly used on the MR but were not the only concern operating there. Express Dairies, MMB and Nestle all had concerns there.

 

The photo below shows a nice short milk train with the leading vehicle in united dairies "UD" livery. The tankers behind look to be in a darker livery so could be pre-war Express Dairies. I am not sure of the date of the photo. The black 5 looks to have its original LMS number (I think) so I am guessing it is pre-nationalisation.

 

The brake van looks as if it's a diagram D530 Midland 6 Wheel brake van. That might well have carried churns (kits) of specialised milk such as Jersey milk or cream. That's just speculation on my part but would be a possible use for a van. Also the 6 wheeler would have the same speed limit as the tankers.

 

Jamie

[Fat Controller]

 

Just after the war there might still have been some in blue livery with white lettering. These would have been dwindling in number and would have been steadily replaced with silver (not white) liveried examples. All the colourful liveries from pre-war days were slowly replaced by silver as time went by with just a small plate on the side denoting owning dairy.

 

Express Dairies were certainly used on the MR but were not the only concern operating there. Express Dairies, MMB and Nestle all had concerns there.

 

The photo below shows a nice short milk train with the leading vehicle in united dairies "UD" livery. The tankers behind look to be in a darker livery so could be pre-war Express Dairies. I am not sure of the date of the photo. The black 5 looks to have its original LMS number (I think) so I am guessing it is pre-nationalisation.

 

The brake van looks as if it's a diagram D530 Midland 6 Wheel brake van. That might well have carried churns (kits) of specialised milk such as Jersey milk or cream. That's just speculation on my part but would be a possible use for a van. Also the 6 wheeler would have the same speed limit as the tankers.

 

Jamie

 

Nice photo of a big engine on a small train. The van might also be carrying butter, and/or cheese; not Wensleydale, but perhaps Stilton from Long Clawson.