Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I am about to....or put it another way....I had planned to construct a small end to end GWR 7mm layout to very high visual and running standards. but it's stalled as I can't find enough commercial parts that will enable me to do this successfully. I have spent quiet a bit of time scanning the internet forums on track building (thanks to you all) and this has led me to adopt 31.50 gauge (would have gone for S7 but I not able to alter my existing Finscale O gauge stock, so this was the main compromise to high fidelity) I started by purchasing some Exactoscale ABS bolt chairs, nickel silver bullhead rail and ABS sleepers, then the first problem hit me... Exactoscale don't make any other 2 bolt chairs for the pointwork (C&L parts were just not as good so did not want to mix up standards). Time for another compromise ... Exactoscale make some very nice 4 bolt bridge and 4 bolt slide chairs so with visual fidelity in mind I decided to mix the different regions, but at least the overall effect using a mixture of 2 and 4 bolt Exactoscale components would provide visual satisfaction. So with even more components now sitting on my work bench a start was made to create a short length of track to test parts required for 31.5mm gauge pointwork. Within 10 minutes I realised the bullhead rail did not really fit the Exactoscale chairs very well as the profile of the rail and chair rail profile is different by a significant amount on the foot of the bullhead section. When I investigated I found the chair profile was more suited to PECO profile which I know is not quite right but have to say it accepted the Exactoscale chairs without any problems and it was also at 1/20 inclination. Sadly Exactoscale slide chairs were even worse as fhe refuse to accept normal Bullhead rail but again not an issue with PECO profile because rail foot is not as thick. Another compromise coming.... I then decided to use a mixture of Exactoscale chairs use PECO profile rail and thought I was now making some progress! Now to make some check rail chairs from some Exactoscale chairs using a small cutting jig I had made it was going well until I realised the check rails would also be at a 1/20 inclination instead of being vertical.... shame as they look at an odd angle with rail ends now pointing upwards..... time to STOP. Current dilemma.... would love to make my own track but have to say with all the compromises and issues I have discovered so far PECO is probably the way forward for me as they make some very nice mouldings, they look the part, they are consistent in style, they come ready made and they are cheap compared to build your own. Yes "frog dropping" will have to be overcome with 1.75mm gaps. Am I the only person that has this problem or have I missed something...HELP PLEASE!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 If you find C&L parts do not meet your requirements then you probably need to make some moulds and make a range of chairs to suit your needs. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 Thanks for the advice but I think you missed the point I'm finding it difficult to make a point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steam69 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 There is nothing wrong with C&L two bolt chairs, and it would seem that you have the wrong rail section as it should fit the chairs very snugly. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted May 25, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2016 Have checked on the Templot forum? I seem to remeber that someone on there is getting his own chairs 3d printed, but I can't rember which company or region he's modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 Hi Richard, thanks for your comments about the rail but just checked packaging and its C&L. Yes agreed chairs do fit very snugly but so much so that it opens out the chair jaws so the inside jaw which then looses contact with the inner rail web. I found that when you thread the chairs on the rail it bends them and makes the base foot curved and even cracks them on occassions. This flexing oh the chair does not happen when using PECO rail and when you look at the assembled track end on with an eye glass it then becomes more apparent about what I'm trying to say. This is more pronounced when you look at the ending veiw using the slide chairs because this relies on the chair having the same form as the bullhead Rail but chair is more suited to the Pico suction and the c&l form makes it impossible for the outer jaw to be a snug Fit with the real web and leaves a large gap between the web and the outside your again. I'm not sure if I'm the only one that noticed this so I was just making people aware of my observations as I expected these nice components to fit without a problem. So as much time and effort has gone into the creation of Templot and making track formations as accurate as possible I had hoped that the latest track components were similar. As a scale modeller,I thought it would be the right thing to do to make my observations more public and I don't want to make it appear that I'm being difficult I just want to help move the Hobby on for those that want scale track so hope most of you will understand. Don't get me wrong Exactoscale C&L products are a huge step forward for the hobby and a nice products used without problem by the majority. Just out of interest it may me worth checking end view of an assembled Exactoscale chair and rail with an eyeglass, especially offering up slide chairs to see what I'm trying to describe. I would be interested in your findings and thoughts on this from a true scale model point of view? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Greenmonkey You will find problems in 7 mm scale regarding anything bar standard and bridge chairs for GWR 2 bolt style, 4 mm scale is catered far better with the addition of the special chairs, but most still have to be altered to one degree or another. Being a modeller who cannot make moulds etc I am left to adapt what is available to the best of my ability The Exactoscale 2 bolt and L1 bridge chairs are fine as supplied, on Shapeways you can buy GWR common crossing (slab and bracket) nose chairs. As for slide chairs, I use the outside of 2 bolt chairs and the slide part of the slide chair, which you could adapt to 2 bolt style. As for the likes of block and check rail chairs its adapting standard chairs, with the odd bit of microstrip. Track work is still the Cinderella of the model railway scene, still thumbs up for another modeller who cares Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 John, many thanks for your comments and great to hear your tips. Interesting as I did start to cut up some chairs last night and I think I may have cracked the Exactoscale sliding chair problem by slicing a small amount off the underneath of the inner jaw which mates with the C&L rail web with a scaplel to match rail cross section, quiet easy to do and you cut at same angle which is already on the chair. Still not GWR but looks perfect! Like you ideas so will see if I can produce a 2 bolt slide chair today as described. Let you know how I get on. Nice to hear from someone like-minded thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 John, many thanks for your comments and great to hear your tips. Interesting as I did start to cut up some chairs last night and I think I may have cracked the Exactoscale sliding chair problem by slicing a small amount off the underneath of the inner jaw which mates with the C&L rail web with a scaplel to match rail cross section, quiet easy to do and you cut at same angle which is already on the chair. Still not GWR but looks perfect! Like you ideas so will see if I can produce a 2 bolt slide chair today as described. Let you know how I get on. Nice to hear from someone like-minded thanks! Hi, OK but C&L do make a 2 bolt slide chair in 7mm scale, not perfect I know, it's missing the rail securing bolt detail (not too difficult to add if you wish) but at least they've got the right number of timber securing bolts and shape. Don't forget that the GWR used 2 slightly different patterns of running chairs, those with a rounded base (C&L) and those with a square corner base (Exactoscale). Mr Woods book has photos of both types in use. I'm puzzled about the rail not fitting. C&L chairs with C&L rail don't distort, at least the ones I've got don't. Might be worth querying the rail with Pete to check that his suppliers haven't messed up though. Whereas other companies might have 4 bolt check rail chairs, the GWR stuck with 2 bolt, so not a problem there to adapt standard C&L 2 bolt chairs. Slab & Bracket - C&L also supply these or at least they used, otherwise they are are too difficult to fabricate or use Shapeways as suggested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 Thanks for the advice Steve I will look into as well. I think I need to check rail section as suggested. I will try and get an end on photo if I can, to show problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 Managed to get some close-up photos of chair/rail cross-sections I have been talking about... The first photo shows an Exactoscale Slide chair with PECO rail fitted. The rail foot fits nicely in the foot profile of the chair also the outer chair jaw fits the rail web. The second photo uses C&L rail and as you can see the rail foot is too thick/tall to fit the chair foot profile and this also prevents the outer chair jaw from fitting the rail web (there is also a gap between the chair jaw and the rail web). This is why I was also having problems with the plain chairs as the larger section bullhead rail deformed the chair and splayed out the both sides of the chair jaws so that they do not make contact with the rail web as they should. Honestly the PECO rail is a better fit (although its not true bullhead section). I have overcome the slide chair issue by slicing off the corner of the chair which is fouling with the C&L rail foot but this will not work for the plain chairs as I can't get in to make the cuts required. Hmmm... need to talk to supplier me thinks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 The C&L rail is the better shape, but the chair is way out. Perhaps the chairs were designed for the Peco rail in the first place. Which rail is actually the correct height? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted May 26, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2016 Have a look at the rail supplied by Karlgarin. See this page and the click on the table of dimensions in the second article (dated March 2015 http://www.karlgarin.com/whatsnew.htm Does that help ? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Managed to get some close-up photos of chair/rail cross-sections I have been talking about... The first photo shows an Exactoscale Slide chair with PECO rail fitted. The rail foot fits nicely in the foot profile of the chair also the outer chair jaw fits the rail web. The second photo uses C&L rail and as you can see the rail foot is too thick/tall to fit the chair foot profile and this also prevents the outer chair jaw from fitting the rail web (there is also a gap between the chair jaw and the rail web). This is why I was also having problems with the plain chairs as the larger section bullhead rail deformed the chair and splayed out the both sides of the chair jaws so that they do not make contact with the rail web as they should. Honestly the PECO rail is a better fit (although its not true bullhead section). I have overcome the slide chair issue by slicing off the corner of the chair which is fouling with the C&L rail foot but this will not work for the plain chairs as I can't get in to make the cuts required. Hmmm... need to talk to supplier me thinks It definitely looks as if those chairs are designed for the Peco "modified flatbottom" rail. Peco's recently announced 00 bullhead track seems to use a similar rail profile. I'm guessing they do that to maximize the clearance between the inside jaw and overscale wheel flanges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 The C&L rail is the better shape, but the chair is way out. Perhaps the chairs were designed for the Peco rail in the first place. Which rail is actually the correct height? Regards Yes looks as though you could be right as I think bullhead rail section looks OK. The height is the same for both rails it's just the foot of PECO track which is thinner in height compared to true bullhead section. Although both heights are the same the PECO track is about 0,2mm wider on the foot than rail head but it not a problem for fitment and cosmetic purposes. When you assemble the plain chairs on PECO track they glide smoothly along the rail wihout any damage to the chair, but when you fit C&L bullhead it removes chair material and deforms the chair jaws Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 Have a look at the rail supplied by Karlgarin. See this page and the click on the table of dimensions in the second article (dated March 2015 http://www.karlgarin.com/whatsnew.htm Does that help ? . Thanks for the link but noticed they and notice they only make flat bottom rail for 7mm but I have heard they are very good sections Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Hi, It's been known for a long time that Peco 7mm scale Bullhead isn't true Bullhead. I've never used Exactoscale 7mm scale Bullhead rail, so I can't say if it was any different to C&L but what I can say is that C&L rail fits C&L 2 bolt slide rail chairs perfectly, it's just a pity that the bolt detail isn't as good. I'll see if I can add some photos shortly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 Hi, It's been known for a long time that Peco 7mm scale Bullhead isn't true Bullhead. I've never used Exactoscale 7mm scale Bullhead rail, so I can't say if it was any different to C&L but what I can say is that C&L rail fits C&L 2 bolt slide rail chairs perfectly, it's just a pity that the bolt detail isn't as good. I'll see if I can add some photos shortly. Thanks that would be good to see. The rail in photo is C&L bullhead as Exactoscale don't make seperate rail but should be compatible as the come from the same supplier, cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Hi, I've managed with some difficulty to get a couple of pictures, hopefully good enough to illustrate what I said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 Hi, I've managed with some difficulty to get a couple of pictures, hopefully good enough to illustrate what I said.2bolt.jpg2boltslide.jpg Many thanks and yes I can just see what you mean looks much better. It looks as though the foot of the rail is thinner in section compared to me photos so perhaps its my C&L rail section which might need looking at (we are making progress). Regards Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Hi, No I think the rail section is the same, an optical illusion caused by the fact I didn't cut the rail very carefully. I'll re-trim and do battle with the camera again to see if I can get a sharper result with the tripod. I couldn't get a clear shot with the compact as it's autofocus only, at least with the EOS I can go manual, just a question of getting the exposure and depth of field right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 Hi, No I think the rail section is the same, an optical illusion caused by the fact I didn't cut the rail very carefully. I'll re-trim and do battle with the camera again to see if I can get a sharper result with the tripod. I couldn't get a clear shot with the compact as it's autofocus only, at least with the EOS I can go manual, just a question of getting the exposure and depth of field right. Many thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 27, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 27, 2016 Note that in addition to the modified foot, Peco 0 gauge bullhead rail is under scale height. BS-95R bullhead rail should be 0.131" high at 7mm/ft (Code 131). Peco rail is only Code 124. Likewise C&L - Code 125. The is a 5% discrepancy, and noticeable. I seem to recall that Slater's can, or at least used to, supply Code 131 bullhead rail. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Hi Martin, Slaters only list code 125 BH and 100 FB on their website. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 28, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2016 Slaters only list code 125 BH and 100 FB on their website. Hi Stephen, That's unfortunate. I know they used to supply a scale section, and here is a scan from their track-making handbook: © 1987 Slaters (Plastikard) Ltd I don't have a copy of the latest issue, which may have been revised. It would be worth asking them the question. It would also be worth actually measuring the current rail from C&L and Slaters. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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