Chassis rot in Grange

[swiftbeam]

Hi,

 

I bough a second hand Hornby Grange to transplant into a Bachmann Manor to create a nice model of 7820 Dinmore Manor.

 

Everything went well, the chassis and parts were all in and looking fantastic. I stripped the paint off the chassis ready for a respray and final assembly, then this !! 

 

:-0

 

 

I thought mazak rot was a thing of the 60's models, not models less than a few years old !!!!

 

This is a gutting turn out as I paid strong money for the Manor that has been cut for this project, plus the cost of the donor Grange and an afternoon of tricky work to get it all fitting perfectly :-(

 

Does anybody know where I can get a new diecast chassis? 

 

Thanks.

[royaloak]

Mazak rot/zinc pest is unfortunately becoming quite common on Chinese built locomotives, I am questioning whether I want to buy a new all singing all dancing model that might explode in a few years or stick with the older all plastic models that seem to last forever.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

...I thought mazak rot was a thing of the 60's models, not models less than a few years old...

The link to the thread of known offenders:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123769-zinc-pest-mazak-rot-the-affected-models-list/

[Dava]

You'd have thought the metallurgie specialists would have sorted this problem by now. Clealrly recent models showing this problem are unfit for purpose and have been manufactured with unsuitable metals.

 

Dava

[swiftbeam]

So can I assume a replacement chassis is not something Hornby sell?

[phil-b259]

So can I assume a replacement chassis is not something Hornby sell?

 

Correct.

 

Hornby are not in the business of making parts or kits - they make entire models (which to the likes of trading standards are defined as toys by the way), something which many folk seem to lose sight of. As such those spares that do tend to be avalible are limited - accessory bags and valve gears mostly. Pretty much anything else has to come from models returned as defective to Hornby or bought by 3rd parties which are broken down into their component parts.

 

Thus you will struggle to find a chassis available and I doubt Hornby will be able to help - though it doesn't harm to ask just in case.

[phil-b259]

You'd have thought the metallurgie specialists would have sorted this problem by now. Clealrly recent models showing this problem are unfit for purpose and have been manufactured with unsuitable metals.

 

Dava

 

The cause of Zinc pest / Mazak rot has been known for decades! - there is no need for detailed metallurgical studies to know the answer.

 

Basically if the Mazzak is contaminated (particularly by lead) when being produced - it will eventually fail and cause anything it gets made into to crumble.

 

With Hornby, Bachmann and many others contracting out manufacturing to China, it becomes that much easier for contaminated Mazak to enter the supply chain and end up in model railway items. Theoretically a good quality control setup and reliable supply chain should eliminate the problems, but in a country like China there are always plenty of people willing to falsify things to make money*.

 

Hornby, Bachmann (and the likes of Apple) make their products in China because they require a good deal of hand assembly and paying folk to do it in the 'West' is totally out of the question due to things like minimum wage requirements. China has a large pool of skilled labour willing to work for what would be, in UK terms, unacceptably low wages and thus allows the prices charged to western consumers relatively low. The flip side of this is increased risks as to the integrity of the supply chain, and also the need to move to a 'batch production' setup that leaves very little room for adjustment in timescales or numbers produced.

 

 

*See

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/53/sub-standard-cables/index.cfm

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/chinese-imported-electrical-cable-could-cause-fires-and-electrocution/news-story/6474b007e6b5b0cf732ccf8d13022f8c

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/2081884/fears-over-subway-cable-scandal-prompt-nationwide-checks-china

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11762086/Warning-Chinese-steel-imports-could-be-safety-threat.html

Edited November 7, 2017 by phil-b259

[royaloak]

Not forgetting the recent Takata airbag recall-

 

https://blog.caranddriver.com/massive-takata-airbag-recall-everything-you-need-to-know-including-full-list-of-affected-vehicles/

 

Okay its Japan rather than China but its close enough.

Edited November 7, 2017 by royaloak

[swiftbeam]

Great, so Hornby just ripped me off of my money AND time.

If that's the case, no more Hornby for me!

I can't wait to watch my small but expensive collection just fall apart!

What's the point of modelling anything to watch it fall apart through no fault of your own !

[steam69]

Great, so Hornby just ripped me off of my money AND time.

If that's the case, no more Hornby for me!

I can't wait to watch my small but expensive collection just fall apart!

What's the point of modelling anything to watch it fall apart through no fault of your own !

You stated in your original post that you bought it second-hand how can Hornby rip you off ?

 

Richard

[swiftbeam]

Sorry, I did't realise Hornby didn't make this Grange. I'll double check the maker!

[G-BOAF]

Surely whether or not second hand, a metal block is something that should not be expected to fail ever, and for it to do so was a fault that occurred at the time of manufacture. Is there no recourse to Hornby. You have a catalogue number so know when the model was made (approx)... worth writing to them maybe?

[phil-b259]

Surely whether or not second hand, a metal block is something that should not be expected to fail ever, and for it to do so was a fault that occurred at the time of manufacture. Is there no recourse to Hornby. You have a catalogue number so know when the model was made (approx)... worth writing to them maybe?

 

True a metal chassis block is not something you would expect to fail - unlike say a motor after prolonged use for example. However the product Hornby sells are defined as TOYS by virtually everyone who has anything to do with consumer rights, and like every other TOY, it is not expected to last for more than a decade. It doesn't matter that model railway builders or enthusiasts see them as finely detailed models - for that to be true in the area of consumer rights the prices charged would have to be considerably higher putting them beyond the 'toy' bracket and into the 'Collectables' area.

 

Hornby (and Bachmann, etc) therefore limit their warranties to 12 months to suit - Hornby's actions with the class 31s a few years ago in providing replacement chassis for those initially affected and later a £100 voucher went well beyond what the law requires with respect to TOYS.

[swiftbeam]

I will bond this chassis back together and use it as a pattern. The lost wax metal caster I use will cast me a one off from a more suitable metal (hopefully the shrinkage will not be an issue). I'll use the Bachmann pony truck rather than the nicer Hornby one I had fitted. fingers crossed, that will finish the model.

 

Having read a bit about it now, it seems Hornby have quite a lot of this problem. Who in their right mind and knowing of this mazak issue would buy a Hornby product? It would seem that I own at least one Hornby model also affected by this problem. I only bought it 2 weeks ago, but it will be on Ebay tomorrow before it gets a chance to devalue to £0!! 

 

I'll be cancelling my Hornby preorders as well!

 

That's it from me on this matter.

 

Thanks for your inputs :-)

Edited November 7, 2017 by swiftbeam

[sandwich station]

Is it mazak rot, or has it just broke in half?

[G-BOAF]

 

I'll be cancelling my Hornby preorders as well!

 

That's it from me on this matter.

 

Thanks for your inputs :-)

 

Not that I would normally criticise Sanda Kan, as the (superficial) build quality of their models was great, unlike some of the early production from the new suppliers, BUT Hornby now uses different manufacturers, and hopefully the quality of the castings and materials will be tighter now. Either way, you shouldn't necessarily judge post 2013 Hornby products on past manufacturing faults (new ones maybe, but not past ones!).

[locoholic]

True a metal chassis block is not something you would expect to fail - unlike say a motor after prolonged use for example. However the product Hornby sells are defined as TOYS by virtually everyone who has anything to do with consumer rights, and like every other TOY, it is not expected to last for more than a decade. It doesn't matter that model railway builders or enthusiasts see them as finely detailed models - for that to be true in the area of consumer rights the prices charged would have to be considerably higher putting them beyond the 'toy' bracket and into the 'Collectables' area.

 

Hornby (and Bachmann, etc) therefore limit their warranties to 12 months to suit - Hornby's actions with the class 31s a few years ago in providing replacement chassis for those initially affected and later a £100 voucher went well beyond what the law requires with respect to TOYS.

I expect the models (not toys) to last more than a decade. Todays model trains are very firmly in the Collectables market - we don't "see them" as finely detailed models - they ARE finely detailed models, and to try and argue otherwise is ridiculous.

 

If it was possible for Hornby Dublo to make models sixty years ago that are still going strong, then current manufacturers have no excuse whatsoever.

[Hilux5972]

Chassis can be found on eBay. Sold by people that just wanted bodies.

[sandwich station]

If it was possible for Hornby Dublo to make models sixty years ago that are still going strong, then current manufacturers have no excuse whatsoever.

 

I think you'll find that mazak rot did infect (for want of a better word) their models. It's been well documented over the years of wheels on locos and wagons (I think) crumbling.

 

In fact, reading about Dublo loco wheels falling apart, was the first time I'd heard of this.

[Dunsignalling]

I expect the models (not toys) to last more than a decade. Todays model trains are very firmly in the Collectables market - we don't "see them" as finely detailed models - they ARE finely detailed models, and to try and argue otherwise is ridiculous.

 

If it was possible for Hornby Dublo to make models sixty years ago that are still going strong, then current manufacturers have no excuse whatsoever.

But Hornby Dublo was, by today's standards, positioned firmly to the toy side of the market. In detail terms, they simply don't stack up against today's models.

 

Whilst (on the whole) they were reasonably accurate dimensionally, except for the habitually undersized wheels, short coaches and overly long/wide wagons. 

 

There was very little in the way of the separately applied detail we get (and have come to expect) these days. But they were/are tough.

 

Leaving aside any mechanical issues and Mazak rot, neither of which are excusable; if we want our r-t-r models to be similarly robust, it's either back to most detail being relief-moulded (Design Clever?) or substituting fragile small plastic parts in metal. The latter would jack up prices to some extent though I for one, would willingly pay a few quid extra to save me the hassle of sourcing (or making) replacements for bits that get broken. 

 

John

Edited November 7, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[PM47079]

Would be quite handy to know which grange is the one affected. I have all the grange releases to date and all seems to be fine with mine so far

[Corbs]

Is it mazak rot, or has it just broke in half?

 

Going back to this, the pictures of models affected with rot don't seem to match what's happened to yours.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/109803-mazak-rot-arrghhh/page-1

 

So hopefully it's 'only' snapped and not rotted?

[57xx]

The cause of Zinc pest / Mazak rot has been known for decades! - there is no need for detailed metallurgical studies to know the answer.

 

Basically if the Mazzak is contaminated (particularly by lead) when being produced - it will eventually fail and cause anything it gets made into to crumble.

 

With Hornby, Bachmann and many others contracting out manufacturing to China, it becomes that much easier for contaminated Mazak to enter the supply chain and end up in model railway items. Theoretically a good quality control setup and reliable supply chain should eliminate the problems, but in a country like China there are always plenty of people willing to falsify things to make money*.

 

*See

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/53/sub-standard-cables/index.cfm

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/chinese-imported-electrical-cable-could-cause-fires-and-electrocution/news-story/6474b007e6b5b0cf732ccf8d13022f8c

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/2081884/fears-over-subway-cable-scandal-prompt-nationwide-checks-china

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11762086/Warning-Chinese-steel-imports-could-be-safety-threat.html

 

You forgot one of the more significant  scandals to consider when considering the problem with our toy trains.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7720404.stm

[bigherb]

You forgot one of the more significant  scandals to consider when considering the problem with our toy trains.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7720404.stm

Or even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal

It happens everywhere.

[Joseph_Pestell]

True a metal chassis block is not something you would expect to fail - unlike say a motor after prolonged use for example. However the product Hornby sells are defined as TOYS by virtually everyone who has anything to do with consumer rights, and like every other TOY, it is not expected to last for more than a decade. It doesn't matter that model railway builders or enthusiasts see them as finely detailed models - for that to be true in the area of consumer rights the prices charged would have to be considerably higher putting them beyond the 'toy' bracket and into the 'Collectables' area.

 

Hornby (and Bachmann, etc) therefore limit their warranties to 12 months to suit - Hornby's actions with the class 31s a few years ago in providing replacement chassis for those initially affected and later a £100 voucher went well beyond what the law requires with respect to TOYS.

 

I don't agree with your general interpretation of the law. But, in any case:

 

This is a basic manufacturing fault and, as such, it is covered under EU law. Hornby have a legal duty to replace.

 

Labelling on the boxes usually indicates that it is for age 14 and above - so by definition NOT a toy. The modern locomotives have far too many small, fragile, detachable parts to qualify as a toy.

 

Of course, this liability might bankrupt Hornby. They should have considered that risk as part of their decision to outsource production to China. In my line of work, we receive a lot of offers from China for bottles. Nobody takes them up on the offer. The prices are cheap but the consequences of any deficiencies in the product (which has to withstand 7 bars pressure) go way beyond any potential saving.