Is sound a)essential b) nice to have or c) neither

[Giz Puk]

Whilst recovering in bed and feeling down, my mind drifted to thoughts of other threads, Jenny Agutter, Emma Peel, Nigella Lawson and Edwige Feneche          ( remember her Dudders and co?). My thoughts then turned to my one true love.... my Hornby GWR Pannier tank.

Why then is it, that after some 45 years she is held in such asteem, after all she does have an early form of smoke generator but lacks accurate body features compared with the modern offerings, lights, DCC or sound.

Sound....Sound..... perhaps herein lies the answer. Whilst DCC and sound in particular has advanced at an alarming rate with many realistic chips now available, in my mind it still doesn't hit the mark in that no matter how good the quality, it can never replicate that deep vibrant resonance in your ears and chest that being up close to the real thing brings.

Having commented earlier on the subject of what for me anyway meets the criteria for a layout or model to be inspiring and award worthy, many would agree that it is the small and often insignificant details that have the greatest affect on people.

One of the details I feel meet this most impecably belongs to Captain Kernow. The addition of a white rear mudguard to an old bicycle propped against a wall on one of his layouts immediately took me back to my old bike leaning up in my nan's alleyway and strangely enough to the white rubber mounting for the reflector and the smell of those degraded rubber pedals.

The SMELL.... that was the one essential sense missing and the one which immediately sent my mind racing through long lost images, smells and tastes faster than I can get them down..... my head is now full of them..... all from that one tiny image.

As I sit here now, I can see my grandads' old threadbare jacket and flat tweed cap hanging on the back of the kitchen door to the pantry complete with the smell of mothballs, and brylcream still on the comb tucked in the top breast pocket. (funnily enough he was bald.... but in denial I think). I always remember him combing the little bit above the ears along with the festideous cleaning of his shoes..... (from when he was in the army during the war).

Instantly my memories went to the sight and smell of the plastic rainbow hanging from the back door to keep the flies out in summer and the heady smell of geraniums on the windowsill.

So how come all this, along with distant memories of places.... and faces...of sights and smells, can be experienced from one such tiny detail and in doing so does this then leave the current trend for flashing lights, bells whistles and DCC Sound pale in insignificance?

Hopefully this thread has reminded you of what has stirred your memories and made others question if the sometimes costly expense to achieve that perfect sound chipped layout or model really  is actually necessary when we already have those sights, sounds and smells locked away inside our heads.

 

Finally if perchance you see a strange Meerkat looking fellow, gazing blankly at your exhibit before a twinkle in the eye and a smug gin appears, then may I just say THANK YOU.... because your exhibit is AWARD WINNING, in that it has taken me back to those places and faces of loved ones that I will never be able to see again except through that sometimes seemingly insignificant detail you have captured so well.

'A picture paints a thousand words....... but a memory is truly a treasure worth receiving'.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

 

[Captain Kernow]

Hi Giz,

 

I'm not sure about sound, I think it depends on the context. I've been amazed by some of the diesel sounds, especially in scales of 7mm and above, but you're right, there's a risk of it being a bit tinny in the smaller scales. Sound is probably the only reason that would ever entice me to go DCC, not that that is very likely right now, anyway.

 

You're so right about smells triggering memories. There's something very deep-rooted in the memory regarding certain combinations of smells that takes us back. Wasn't there some documentary or other about that a while back?

 

I'll have to try to find that bike you mentioned, can't remember which layout it's on!

[Dunsignalling]

Mention of the bicycle triggered a memory in me of childhood visits to the allotments where my grandparents grew fruit and veg.

 

Most of the allotment holders arrived on pushbikes, but seldom rode them away, when their purpose was to support hessian sacks used to carry the produce home.

 

These were solid, often pre-war, sit-up-and-beg jobs with roller lever brakes and (at most) a Sturmey Archer 3/4 speed gear hub, and almost always black.  

 

The memory re-awakened for me was the rear mudguards. No doubt a hang-over from the WW2 blackout, and presumably to avoid being profligate with scarce paint, only the final eight or nine inches of these were commonly white.

 

Back on topic: Sound, very nice when it's done well but often tinny/weedy In scales smaller than 7mm. 

 

John  

Edited November 9, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Torper]

Sound is nice to have, but a bit pricey.  I think that some people can forget that sound in model railways isn't only about what you hear - it also adds considerably to the driving experience if you use it properly.

 

DT

[SRman]

I like sound, and have quite a few sound fitted locos and units. While I agree with the OP that we don't get the really deep bass chest-throbbing effects, it still adds another dimension to the model railway. There's also the added challenge of driving more realistically with the usually high momentum/inertia settings that go with the sound projects (which can be changed if so desired).

 

I find that smoke is probably the least realistic thing, although I would love to have it if it could be made thicker (think of the problems that would cause, though!   ).

Smells are almost absent: I agree wholeheartedly that smells can trigger all sorts of past memories. The slightly acrid smell around electric railways with third rail (or third and fourth rail), the smell of diesel fumes, the lovely aromas of steam, coal and oil (evoked when I witnessed Simon Kohler demonstrating the then new Hornby live steam trains). I even have particular memories of the smells in the old Woolworth shop in Petts Wood; the particular combination of the detergent they used on the floors with the old woodwork and other scents they used all bring back pleasant memories of the trains running just behind the store, my grandparents and Petts Wood station itself, with the high sided steel footbridge and long stairs up to it.

Mind you, the smells of steam, coal and oil can also remind one of the gritty embers and coal dust flying into ones eyes ...   

No, sound isn't perfect, but I like it, and it is getting better and better as we learn more (and the experts who create the projects learn more).

[Giz Puk]

For those of you wondering about the bicycle with the white rear mudguard it is on Engine Wood propped up against the shed.

Further to the smell of steam, last year I took a dozen or so youngsters ( aged 18-65!!!!) on a leaving run ashore for one of the lads who was leaving the navy to go to university in the hope of setting up his own photographic buisiness. (Andy Y take note as there could be some top class competion just around the corner).

As a surprise we took the train/booze cruise from Bishops Lydeard to Minehead as for many this was their first experience of steam trains, and for us oldies it definitely brought back childhood memories of sights, sounds and smells long gone. For me the smell of steam and oil and all those others you mentioned in the thread comments above, took me back also to those old steam fairs we used to have where you could watch farmers threshing the corn or ploughing the fields with either a pair of 'Shires' or two ploughing steam engines moving in unison as the plough traversed the field on cables. I know they still have the Dorset Steam Fayre and one at Langport /High Ham in Somerset but sadly I believe those such as the one they used to hold at Castle Ashby near Northampton are long gone. Funnily enough that has just reminded me of the steam organ that was playing next to the carousel when i was about 5 or 6 and the council workmen in their camp at the bottom of the road, boiling up the tarmac whilst the steam roller got a head of steam up........ but sorry I digress again.

Back to the real reason for this ramble.... regarding the comment above of embers in the eyes... after copious ammount of beer and money spent in support of the railway in the buffet car, dits spun to the youngsters by the train staff, engine drivers and us oldies of times gone by, they spent nearly the whole 20 + miles on the way back, at a sedately 20 -25 mph I might add, with their heads out of the windows grinning inately and teeth covered in dead flies and embers relishing their new found sights and smells. In all it was a brilliant day out and one which they have been heard to talk about fondly over a few beers with their own peers thus hopefully introducing more people into the source of our hobby.

Hopefully reading this might just bring you to question.... how much do we really value our heritage railways and the staff and public who support them?

It's very easy to suggest that the lines are not very long... tickets are expensive ( or are they when you look at the price of a taxi or car running costs these days?) and that 'we can always  go another day'. Unfortunately we all tend to take these lines for granted and I believe it is a sad fact of life that if we don't take time out to support them, and the small shows and venues put on by clubs then I fear that like many other lost memories they will just slowly disappear but if we can get new blood interested in them they might just survive long enough for our grandchildren to enjoy.

must sign off now as the boss has arrived and its time for work

Finally do you remember the sights and smells of the local shop (see Arkwrights Open All Hours),

I remember looking art the iced fingers in the window ( the ones that were there all day and you could buy cheap at closing time: 4.30 mon-fri and half day closing wednesday), then asking the shop keeper how much were his wasps. 'We don't sell wasps' he'd say.... and we'd reply....'well you've got one in the window.....'.

No matter how many times we asked he'd always reply and laugh....... god how I miss those corner shops todays self service just isn't the same.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[Giz Puk]

Back on topic again,

must agree that the main reason i would get into DCC would probably be sound but also possibly the ability to double head or shunt on the same line.

As it has been pointed out, the quality of sound files and speakers have improved dramatically.( compared to the sand paper strip fitted under the tender of my old models to give that chuff chuff that i thought was so brilliant as a child.)

When sound is done good it can be very good and enhances the realism of a layout, but as commented on in other threads, when done badly or TOO LOUD... it can detract from the emnjoyment of a layout (especially annoying if you are admiring a steam layout but can only hear the scream of the CLass 20 which has been sitting stationary in a siding on a layout at the other end of the exhibition hall.)

I have nothing but admiration for the likes of 'Legomanbiffo' and others who have helped to transform our hobby over the years. The introduction of TTS for those thinking of dabbling with sound in the future has provided a cheapish means of approaching this new element for those of all ages..... and before people comment on how this system is not accurate (wrong no of chuffs per revolution, or whistle/horn not realistic) lets consider how this in time may help make sound more popular and acceptable to the masses and hopefully help to reduce prices for the top value items. (remember when a video recorder was £400 with remote control being by a handset attached to a cable........ now you can get a DVD recorder for less than the cost of a day return ticket (standing only and off peak times) from Reading to London.

Sorry Train service providers but if you dont make train travel cost effective people will stop using it.... and we know what that means don't we Mr Beeching!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just put the kettle on and enjoying the sound... just like Ivor the Engine..... Barp, Barp!!!!!!!

Steam doesn't smell the same though.... must give it a squirt of WD40 to see if that helps  

Also love the TT gauge layout doing the rounds at the moment... not only does it have that raw edge to model raiways we were used to .... but it also has that burnt oily electrical smell of carbon brushes I so fondly remember

Yours Aye,

Giz

[bike2steam]

I love sound, why?, because it is the source of constant amusement for me. Seeing steam locos with either one, or nine 'barks' to the revolution of the wheel. At the last show I went to only one layout out of about half a dozen with sound got it anywhere near right, and 8F's that sound like a terrier - you gotta larf !!

But talk of 'smell', can someone please recreate the smell you used to get within a large steam shed ???

[Middlesea John]

The problem with sound is that it is, or appears to be, difficult to control at our level. I don't go to that many exhibitions but I can clearly remember three where sound has been arguably good for the layout it's on but ruins the effect for others. I had my 1960s steam layout in a room with an LNWR Victorian era layout and some early French steam in a room where a 2-tone diesel horn was our constant companion. I've operated Steve Farrow's Pen-y-Madoc (1930s GWR)at a few shows and had all sorts from station announcements in German to Class 20 engines revving up again spoiling the effect. The quandary is how to make it loud enough to hear by people watching that particular layout without taking over its neighbours. As far as I'm concerned this has yet to be sorted out so, until that time is reached, silence is golden.

[Giz Puk]

First of all why is it when you need to get something down before you forget the internet always goes on a go slow or shuts down altogether forcing you to give it a re-boot (or is that a boot?)

 

Anyway,

EUREKA!!!!!!!! how about ... with regards to annoying sounds at exhibitions, what if visitors were given a headset like those at art galleries and stately home tours..... not that i would be interested either but whatever floats your boat as they say.

Each exhibitors layout would have a corresponding number and the sound files uploaded to the headsets.

 

So>>>>

 

For Little Muddle...... Press 1, For  A Nod to Brent.... Press 2, For that annoying layout with the screaming Class 20 sat idling at full volume for the past 20 mins......Press 3. etc

 

For those who prefer to admire without sound............. Don't bother to wear it.

 

Problem solved and everyone happy, plus the headsets could be reconfigured with links to exhibitors live sound files before every exhibition, so once you have a headset and a means to update it you are good to go!!!!

 

All we need now are 'Smells in a can'....... the aerosol range from 'Sniffyman legobrick', incorporating, steam, diesel era and countryside smells for layouts of all size and gauges.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[bike2steam]

Steam doesn't smell the same though.... must give it a squirt of WD40 to see if that helps  

That'd smell a bit fishy !!

[chrisf]

I think it depends on the sound and the set-up.  At a recent show I noted a layout equipped with sound and wondered how long I could operate an adjoining layout without the first one driving me mad.  It was not the sounds emitted by individual items of stock that caused the irritation - who could object to the throaty roar of a Hampshire dmu or a 37 in full cry? - but the constant bing-bong which precedes tannoy announcements on the platform.  I can think of another well-known layout where the sound can be heard outside the hall!  Let's not try broadcasting to the nation, guys, but keep it in proportion.

 

It is my view that in terms of authenticity diesel has it over steam in the current state of development but I also think that steam is a lot more difficult than diesel to capture accurately.  Consider the humble pannier. When starting from rest with any sort of a load it will bark for Battersea Dogs Home, yet in not very many minutes the only audible emission is the tiff-tiff of whatever makes that sound or the clank of rods when it is coasting with the regulator shut.  Having said that, I came across a 7mm Super D earlier this year which captured the prototype's bronchitic wheeze admirably.

 

Chris

[Giz Puk]

Couldn't agree more Chris,

 

I'm sure everyone would love to see a small layout be it only a 3' scenario of a shunter on a siding, with the sounds of brake squeal, clattering of buffers, clanking of chains and all the associated noises, all accurately represented in correct sequence be it steam or diesel..... at the correct volume levels to make it enjoyable, but not too intrusive for others.

 

What could be more motivating on a cold wet day like today.... especially for enthusiasts old and young who do not have the ability to access a local modelling group.

 

I would love to hear the Valetta scream of an HST as it pulls away from Waterloo, or better still the wheel slip associated with the big 9f's and alike, and who would not embrace the sound of an A4 or a Deltic at full pelt on the ECML. (Other regions and era's please substitute locomotives of your choice).

 

When I started this thread my thoughts were is sound essential, nice to have or neither, hopefully many of you like myself starting with option c (neither) are slowly becoming more inclined to lean toward option b.

Who knows if DCC sound continues to improve so that steam sounds are as good as some present diesel offerings (or hopefully better), maybe it won't belong until the issue of sound/no sound and lights/no lights replicates the current trend of DC/DCC?? as option b nice to have or option a essential and the choice for most modellers with regard to decent affordable sound is not if... but when?

Todays environment holds so much in store for the next generation of modellers, not just in how control our layouts be it DC/DCC or those few who may still have a ZERO1 set up but how we accurately demonstrate the sounds associated with our hobby. 

We've come a long way from those days of sticking 'Sounds of the Great Western' on the gramaphone whilst trying to synchronise our movements. (thats trains not bowels Dudders and co !!!!).

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I can do far better sound in my head than is reproduced on DCC. Good recordings such as those by Peter Handford will show the distance that has to be bridged to deliver adequate reproduction.

 

It's eternal summer on my layout so exhaust is minimal. Whatever, 'smoke generators' cannot produce the right effect, because they cannot replicate the thermal energy in the exhausted steam that produces the rapidly expanding cloud of visible water vapour as condensation occurs. (People, steam is a gas, and transparent: you haven't seen it, any more than you see air. Look closely at a safety valve release, the very small gap between the top of the valve and the base of the condensing water vapour cloud is the steam.)

...The SMELL.... that was the one essential sense missing and the one which immediately sent my mind racing through long lost images, smells and tastes faster than I can get them down..... my head is now full of them.....

A lump of coal and the oilstone left where the sun falls on them, along with some nearby long ago creosoted timber, generates a satisfactory steam age scent for me.

[Mike Storey]

Whilst sound chips have advanced markedly, recently, and have become far more user-friendly, so that one can drive the sounds, rather than spending half the time looking at which F button to press, there is also a massive advance in speakers, that can make a huge difference, especially for the bass sounds of diesels and many steamers.

 

We thought bass reflex speakers were the dog's wotsits, until the "Earth Movers" arrived - look for EM1 or EM2 (larger version) speaker fitted demos on youtube. DC Kits and Leggomanbiffo are selling these at present, and the increasing sophistication and miniaturisation of mobile phone etc speakers is having a spin-off effect for us.

 

My greatest recollections of the past, apart from the smells (and I really don't wish to remember some of them, like the one you got when entering a slightly damp EPB compartment on a Sunday morning....), are textures and sounds, especially the Westinghouse pump thumping hard on a Mark 1 EMU, or the throat of a Mod Plan DMU as it tried to get going - made Formula 1 sound like a 2CV - whilst a throbbing Deltic, or even a Brush 2, rushed past on the fast. So there are Rivet counters, but now there are also Decibel (or should that MegaHerz?) counters. You can be both, but I fall into the latter.

[bike2steam]

 yet in not very many minutes the only audible emission is the tiff-tiff of whatever makes that sound  

 

Chris

Anti-vacuum/'snifter' valve, very audible on exGW locos when coasting, called snift(er) as that's what it's supposed to sound like, but I prefer your 'tiff-tiff'.

[2mmMark]

Sound?  Yeah baby, set it to 11 and bring it on!

[Mike Storey]

Sound?  Yeah baby, set it to 11 and bring it on!

acoustic_locator_4.jpg

 

I think that's the EM3 prototype?

[2mmMark]

With my sensible head on, my personal view is that DCC loco sound is best appreciated at home and perhaps should not be used at exhibitions, because it's not often used with restraint.

 

Quiet ambient sound is acceptable, bird song, buffer clanks, the occasional whistle or hoot toot etc.

 

Common sense is required, we don't need to resort to the Equalities act.

[The Black Hat]

Sound has caused a revolution in model railways and before this thread gets going towards a polarisation of those that like it and those that dont, there are a few things to consider.

 

One. Sound is here to stay. Its been introduced and found to be very popular. While some sounds might not be exactly like the prototype - the hissing sound of steam (like that of it being released at pressure from cylinder cocks) is very hard to reproduce. Diesel sounds are more ameanable to being reproduced and adapated for this, but both can still give interest for the people watching or those running the layout.

 

Secondly, sound varies in quality. Even from the outset, sound from some outlets was fantastic. Im looking at Bryan at Howes here (still thinking that his steam recordings are best), while others like Legomanbiffo have equalled or exceeded that standard. There are others like SWD, Digitrains, Youchoose who are also quite good. Hornby and Bachmann have both produced recordings and the formers TTS sounds while good sometimes lack accuracy. Thats why some people like Bryan at Howes really are great. You get a very accurate wheel revolution and sounds of the prototype on his, such as track groan, bark of the exhaust, whistles, wagon chains, plus more. Its a standard of which others like Biffo have followed to. The latters diesels are excellent too, failed starts, engine notes, horns, wheel slip, drivelock all feature.

 

All this adds to the realism and fun you can have operating and that is the final extra detail that you now have. Instead of engines just starting, you can have the various extra sounds too. While some might bemoan that these are sometimes louder, like a guards whistle, the enjoyment this generates off the waiting public is far more positive than those that comment on it negatively. Also, it means that driving is in itself enhanced. Extra care is needed to set off and sounds change to match locomotives movements. Howes (Bryan's) and Biffo again come into their own, with SWD and Digi not far behind, as they have different settings that change the sounds, so pending on how much power to you apply to get underway changes the performance as does a slow start, or the drivelock feature. It means that the sound the engine makes enhances your opinion of it, as much as the paint and livery its in. Layouts featuring some recent releases and engines that are custom done can add more by having accurate sound. It makes operation much more fun, but also poses the challenge of having to operate the layout properly, as per prototype - Biffos take this further when you can add the lighting of the engines too. Again matching the movements of the engine to how it should be done can show how some layouts are better than others in doing this, although most don't notice the differences as per prototype and just enjoy the engines running with the sound they make.

 

Sound has marked another dimension in realism that is sensible and practical to add to models. Its not essential, but can make an essential difference in realism, that does often make things nicer and fun to see or operate. If not, move on, as its now become so much a part of the mainstream that there's no going back. There will always be a corner and place where engines run silently, but sound now for many is part of the show, part of the fun and part of the hobby.

[Giz Puk]

Couldn't agree more Black Hat.

I only wish that everyone could afford to have a locomotive with working lights, firebox glow and associated shovelling and an acceptable degree of authenticity of true operating sounds. this also goes for the diesel brigade and not forgetting the upcoming electrical fleet followers.

With so many excellent services being offered by those you have mentioned and the advances in technology we have today who knows?

Afterall who who have thought ten years ago that the level of DCC control we see today would be readily available to the modeller on an average budget... Sound...N gauge? ...Never!!!!!!!!!!!

Yours Aye,

Giz

[Chris116]

I went to a very good exhibition last year where two layouts had sound. A UK Diesel layout and a European Steam layout. They were next door to each other and both had their sound at a sensible volume at the start of the day. By lunchtime both were trying to be louder than the other and you could hear the noise outside the main hall at which point the organisers thankfully told both to turn the sound off. Sound is great used in moderation but in excess I could happily take a hammer to every loco so fitted. The thing that is really annoying is having a fiddle yard full of diesels on tick over.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Chris116

[bike2steam]

 By lunchtime both were trying to be louder than the other -

Kids love to play !!

[Nearholmer]

No.

 

Yes, but only if it’s good, and it seems very hard for suppliers to it right below 0, and even there some is pretty poor.

 

If it’s poor.

[Middlesea John]

Sound is here to stay. Its been introduced and found to be very popular. While some sounds might not be exactly like the prototype - the hissing sound of steam (like that of it being released at pressure from cylinder cocks) is very hard to reproduce. Diesel sounds are more ameanable to being reproduced and adapated for this, but both can still give interest for the people watching or those running the layout.

t

That's maybe true to a point but just because it's here, that doesn't mean it's here to stay. Some new inventions or developments in our hobby come and last for years but others die a death because they either get replaced by something else or they just become unpopular. Over the years we've lost several things that were "State of the art" when they first appeared  Think back to Trix Twin  or other 3-rail stuff.  I'm sure people at the time thought they were here to stay as they had no way of knowing what would happen in the future.