Is sound a)essential b) nice to have or c) neither

[Martino]

The only way of testing the sound issue is to fly in a hot air balloon and see what you hear from approximately the distance you would view a model.

 

On my garden railway at 16mm/ft, I use the 10 foot rule. If it looks and sounds ok from 10 feet away (getting on for 200 feet in the real world) then it’s probably ok. If it looks bad or sounds too loud, you need to change it.

 

I suggest that the 10 ft rule be applied to 4mm/ft too. That means what would things look and sound like at ne’er 1000 ft?

[Chris M]

Layouts with ambient sounds are one of my pet hates, especially attempts at witty sounds. OK, at first they can be quite amusing, but go to an exhibition where you can hear these sounds from the other side of a hall with no respite and whatever attraction or amusement evaporates very quickly and turns into a deep loathing.

I can see this but surely it is important to entertain paying visitors, especially youngsters, who may not understand the finer points of railway modelling? The delight on the face of a youngster when they hear my cows mooing makes it all worthwhile, for me anyway.

[jjb1970]

I can see this but surely it is important to entertain paying visitors, especially youngsters, who may not understand the finer points of railway modelling? The delight on the face of a youngster when they hear my cows mooing makes it all worthwhile, for me anyway.

I have no objection with entertainment, after all that is one of the principal purposes of an exhibition, to entertain visitors. If these ambient sounds are kept low enough not to intrude on the rest of the hall then I have no objection (personally I still don't like them) but when volume levels are set so that you can hear them from everywhere it just becomes annoying (and more) and ends up detracting from enjoyment of other layouts and attractions.

Ambient sounds are also a good example of the problem of scaling sound. How many cows do people hear mooing in real life? You have to be pretty near a cow to hear it moo, ditto with pigs oinking etc. And that is before you get onto the idea that we filter most sounds to avoid our perceptions being overloaded and as a result ignore most ambient sound to allow us to hear stuff our brains perceive to be important. Given that you are viewing model trains and scenic accessories at the equivalent of a considerable distance the incongruence between visual illusion and hearing sounds is particularly pronounced.

[Chris M]

Cow moos are loud and the sound travels quite a distance, certainly across a large valley. Likewise sheep baas.

Trains can sometimes be heard from miles away, especially when steam powered or travelling at high speed.

[Mike Storey]

The only way of testing the sound issue is to fly in a hot air balloon and see what you hear from approximately the distance you would view a model.

 

On my garden railway at 16mm/ft, I use the 10 foot rule. If it looks and sounds ok from 10 feet away (getting on for 200 feet in the real world) then it’s probably ok. If it looks bad or sounds too loud, you need to change it.

 

I suggest that the 10 ft rule be applied to 4mm/ft too. That means what would things look and sound like at ne’er 1000 ft?

 

Your approach works extremely well for those trainspotters enthusiasts who did all their spotting focussed observations from the foothills of Snowdon, or Cadar Idris. However, in little old Isle of Sheppey, or even in the foothills of Suffolk, whence most of my nostalgia emanates, 200 ft elevation let alone 1,000 ft, would have required some form of aerial device.

 

Let's say the 3ft rule in 00 (or 200ft in non-Gulliver land) is more appropriate, and even then, I don't remember being 200ft away when standing on the platform at Queenborough or Lowestoft, but it appears to be the accepted norm for visual acceptance. In 16mm, which I also run, I accept that 10ft is the normal viewing distance for the tea-drinking visitations of the other kind of visitor, but up close and personal (about 4ft) is the norm for most, finger-blistered, horny handed sons (and daughters) of live steam toil, which equates to a scaled up "real" distance of about 80ft. This is a bit more like it, for those of us that avoided the 20p platform ticket at Portmadoc, but still not really right for the saddos that stood right next to the Cob, or even at the farm/school track at the exit to Lower Corris.

 

But I get your point. The neighbours were at least 200 or 1000 ft away, and we should not annoy them.  

[Giz Puk]

Spent a while on that well known video channel last night, and to support the comments raised by jjb 1970 the most annoying video I found was a lengthy clip of a steam era shunting puzzle.

the operator had obviously gone to great lengths to 'improve' the ambience by following the shunting procedure to the letter using DCC sound which appeared to have been turned up for the benefit of those of us who are obviously hard of hearing.

After approx 2 mins of listening to the shrill whisle every time it  went to cross the points soon ruined the visual experience and had me pressing the stop button.

Basically what started off as something enjoyable and proto typical, soon became an annoyance to me, as a viewer and not an officianado of operating procedures. Were I a 'rivet counter' my attention may have been held a little longer but as has been mentioned all too often through out this thread, due to volume levels, sound can very quickly stop being b) and become c). (Or even the latest  potential category d).... Bleedin' annoying).

Question is ..... if you are at exhibiting  and people view you as c) or d), how to you get people to consider b) or even a) as an option?

Yours Aye,

Giz

[Torper]

Most people here seem  to be talking (and complaining) about sound used at exhibitions or by other people.  I don't intend to exhibit my layout which is meant for my use and enjoyment.  I've set the sound on my layout to the volume I like.  I find that it's much more satisfying (and requires some modicum of skill) to drive locos with a decent decoder and a properly set up sound system and I happen to think that a loco that makes a noise largely similar to the real thing is more realistic than one that doesn't make any sound at all.

 

Sound at exhibitions?  Dunno - hardly ever go to them myself.  Last one I went to I certainly wasn't bothered by sound used on layouts and I certainly wouldn't want to take the draconian (and dare I say Luddite) step of banning them.

 

DT

[ROSSPOP]

 NO SOUND OR SMOKING

 

 

 

This is the work of Steven Baldock

Edited November 16, 2017 by ROSSPOP

[Anglian]

I've posted these before but here is my slightly different take on sounds.

 

Out in the garden my Shay has got a cheap sound card which is good for chuffs but, like so many, not great at the whistle. So I got some whistles on mp3 and downloaded them to my phone which was connected to a bluetooth speaker in the first wagon. The whistle sound was therefore controlled by my phone and completely independent form the chuffs.. I have since got a slightly smaller speaker which can't be seen inside the wagon. I really enjoyed running this round with so many different whistles to try. In the garden birdsong comes for free!

 

 

On one of my N gauge layouts I use the same speaker again worked through my phone. Unfortunately the phone camera doesn't capture the full depth of the sound on this. Those who have seen my layout my be relieved to know that I have changed the sound arrangements a little and the sounds are now played at a much lower volume from a speaker in the header board. I did this to get the sound nearer the visitors ears and so require less volume. I only run sound occasionally, not all the time.

 

 

I also can play cow, sheep and tractor sounds through the same method but I only do this when youngsters are around as I do try not to annoy fellow exhibitors too much. I get the most fun from the thunderstorm. Again the phone just doesn't capture this anywhere near the real sound. I use a big speaker under the baseboard for this sound and it will reverberate round large halls. The flashing lights to represent lightning and sound of both lightning crack and thunder come from a Broadway Limited Imports module. We try to do a bit of theatre but again only when youngsters are watching. We dim the layout lights and say in a concerned way that some thick clouds have come over hiding the sun and causing it to go a bit dark. We then have a bit of thunder and lightning followed by bringing the lights back up to represent the sun coming back out. Maybe not what serious modellers want but it seems to entertain many visitors.

 

 

The problem with this effect it that all the cows would be lying down huddled together in the corner of the field and definitely under the cover of foliage. In this case the addition of stormy sounds make the scene less, rather than more realistic.

 

I have heard of the system that uses bass speakers under the layout. It's been suggested that visually we are more likely to link more treble sounds to motion so it might one day be possible to get that deep bass sound from big speakers under the layout whilst the smaller more treble sounds come from the moving locomotive.

 

The biggest current issue with sound for me is that they main beat or chuff never, ever seems to be in synchronisation with the motion. They tend to start chuffing too fast before they are really moving. Of course once the notion of sound has been properly resolved the next issue will be smoke. I've no idea how they resolve that. I'd love to have a layout set in the dead of a snowy winter punctuated by locomotives with great plumes of white smoke.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Anglian

[Dunsignalling]

Cow moos are loud and the sound travels quite a distance, certainly across a large valley. Likewise sheep baas.

Trains can sometimes be heard from miles away, especially when steam powered or travelling at high speed.

Yes, but not, in model form, from the other end of a fifty-foot-long room full of chatting people who are having to raise their voices over it...........

[Dunsignalling]

Most people here seem  to be talking (and complaining) about sound used at exhibitions or by other people.  I don't intend to exhibit my layout which is meant for my use and enjoyment.  I've set the sound on my layout to the volume I like.  I find that it's much more satisfying (and requires some modicum of skill) to drive locos with a decent decoder and a properly set up sound system and I happen to think that a loco that makes a noise largely similar to the real thing is more realistic than one that doesn't make any sound at all.

 

Sound at exhibitions?  Dunno - hardly ever go to them myself.  Last one I went to I certainly wasn't bothered by sound used on layouts and I certainly wouldn't want to take the draconian (and dare I say Luddite) step of banning them.

 

DT

Earlier this year or late last, I was unfortunate enough to attend an exhibition where a 7mm scale diesel depot layout had getting on for a dozen sound-fitted locos running with the volume at or near distortion level, at one end of a large, high ceilinged room.

 

Reminded me more of the warm up area at a motor racing meeting than anything on a railway.

 

Completely inconsiderate and I pray they haven't been invited to any more shows. The traders at the far end were having difficulty talking to their customers.

 

John

Edited November 16, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Your approach works extremely well for those trainspotters enthusiasts who did all their spotting focussed observations from the foothills of Snowdon, or Cadar Idris. However, in little old Isle of Sheppey, or even in the foothills of Suffolk, whence most of my nostalgia emanates, 200 ft elevation let alone 1,000 ft, would have required some form of aerial device.

 

Let's say the 3ft rule in 00 (or 200ft in non-Gulliver land) is more appropriate, and even then, I don't remember being 200ft away when standing on the platform at Queenborough or Lowestoft, but it appears to be the accepted norm for visual acceptance. In 16mm, which I also run, I accept that 10ft is the normal viewing distance for the tea-drinking visitations of the other kind of visitor, but up close and personal (about 4ft) is the norm for most, finger-blistered, horny handed sons (and daughters) of live steam toil, which equates to a scaled up "real" distance of about 80ft. This is a bit more like it, for those of us that avoided the 20p platform ticket at Portmadoc, but still not really right for the saddos that stood right next to the Cob, or even at the farm/school track at the exit to Lower Corris.

 

But I get your point. The neighbours were at least 200 or 1000 ft away, and we should not annoy them.

On a garden layout, it should be easy. Listen to the live-steamer and set the volume of the leccy toys to match.

[coachmann]

DCC Sound is so obviously a personal thing like music. We enjoyed music in the privacy of our homes, but it got on our tit when transistor radios brought it to public transport in the early 1960's. .....before it was banned. Equally irritating can be mobile phone gobshytes. I have DCC steam sound in my shed and garden but I'll bet it would grate in an exhibition hall. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by coachmann

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I cannot guarantee that I have read every single post in this thread, but one thing occurs to me that I have not yet seen mentioned.

 

I am planning to use sound on my steam locos on my exhibition HO layout but I'm getting worried that something that is great fun for a few minutes - steam switching/shunting/operation will become tedious/boring when done for 8 hours even in one hour shifts. Constant knob twiddling to get a realistic result could become a real chore .

[Mike Storey]

I cannot guarantee that I have read every single post in this thread, but one thing occurs to me that I have not yet seen mentioned.

 

I am planning to use sound on my steam locos on my exhibition HO layout but I'm getting worried that something that is great fun for a few minutes - steam switching/shunting/operation will become tedious/boring when done for 8 hours even in one hour shifts. Constant knob twiddling to get a realistic result could become a real chore .

 

Or it could take 8 hours to get it just right?    

[Giz Puk]

 

 NO SOUND OR SMOKING

 

 

 

This is the work of Steven Baldock

 

fantastic model and a brilliant example of what can be achieved without breaking the sound barrier.

Once again this proves that decibels do not make a good model, but consideration with regard to sound levels makes a great model.

thanks for sharing this with us.

Yours Aye,

Giz

[jjb1970]

Sound at exhibitions?  Dunno - hardly ever go to them myself.  Last one I went to I certainly wasn't bothered by sound used on layouts and I certainly wouldn't want to take the draconian (and dare I say Luddite) step of banning them.

 

DT

I don't think anybody wants to ban sound from exhibitions, neither does anybody dispute that if people like sound then they're perfectly entitled to that opinion just as sound sceptics are entitled to their opinion. What some people do object to is sound equipped layouts at exhibitions with the sound levels set so as to be annoying to people not viewing that particular layout. That is spoiling the experience for people viewing or exhibiting other layouts or visiting trade stands.

[newbryford]

I don't think anybody wants to ban sound from exhibitions, neither does anybody dispute that if people like sound then they're perfectly entitled to that opinion just as sound sceptics are entitled to their opinion. What some people do object to is sound equipped layouts at exhibitions with the sound levels set so as to be annoying to people not viewing that particular layout. That is spoiling the experience for people viewing or exhibiting other layouts or visiting trade stands.

 

I am a DCC sound user.

(There, I've admitted it)

 

We always try to turn off the sound as the loco is far enough into the hidden sections. Our (now retired) layout had a fairly solid plywood backscene that reflected the sound, so the volume didn't need to be that high to be reasonable to the bystander and on a long layout, there was a distinct coming and going away to it.

 

We were once back-to-back with an O gauge layout which had their diesels turned up to 11 and it was beyond annoying. Especially when they were left idling forever in the storage yard.

I do believe that this layout has since taken hints and turned them down - a lot.

 

Going OT - even more annoying sound is a block bell every few seconds..........

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Mad McCann]

I certainly think the above is a pretty top end example of steam sound but in general I prefer to stay away from steam sound as a steam loco's range of sounds is far too organic and variable to be simulated in a truly convincing manner as yet. Think of that constant accelerating of decelerating 'chuff'; what about all the rod clank and valve tinkle that you get from real locos coasting in steam for example. As a listener to Peter Handford recordings since the age of 16 I have a pretty definitive idea of 'correct sound' and a decoder would have to be infinitely 'playable' by the handset to really be able to convincingly portray a true range of sound.

Diesels are much more convincing in model sound by comparison although again, only the best truly do it to an acceptable standard. My ears can pick up a loop at 50 paces and it quickly becomes like fingernails down a blackboard to me. ;-)

 

D.

Mick; don't get a job in a manual box, mate! ;-)

[Dunsignalling]

I certainly think the above is a pretty top end example of steam sound but in general I prefer to stay away from steam sound as a steam loco's range of sounds is far too organic and variable to be simulated in a truly convincing manner as yet. Think of that constant accelerating of decelerating 'chuff'; what about all the rod clank and valve tinkle that you get from real locos coasting in steam for example. As a listener to Peter Handford recordings since the age of 16 I have a pretty definitive idea of 'correct sound' and a decoder would have to be infinitely 'playable' by the handset to really be able to convincingly portray a true range of sound.

Diesels are much more convincing in model sound by comparison although again, only the best truly do it to an acceptable standard. My ears can pick up a loop at 50 paces and it quickly becomes like fingernails down a blackboard to me. ;-)

 

D.

Mick; don't get a job in a manual box, mate! ;-)

There's a big difference between maybe six or eight trains an hour on the real thing and one a minute on an exhibition layout.................    

[Mad McCann]

Aye, fair one! :-)

 

D.

[coachmann]

Constant knob twiddling to get a realistic result could become a real chore .

Probably best left to the ladies.

 

Anton Deck.

[St Enodoc]

I don't like sound, or at least not how it's done at the moment. On a layout you hear sound fitted locos at pretty much the same volume wherever they are. Unless you have a huge layout they don't travel far enough away for there to be any perceptible change in volume. Out in the real world as trains come and go so does the noise they make, though they're louder they travel much further and we hear the sound rise as they close and fall as they retreat. I have an idea that it's the monotonous sound of dcc fitted locos, never rising or falling that irks spectators

I don't use sound on my (home) layout for four reasons, all of which bar one have been articulated already on this thread - namely lack of deep bass for steam locos, lack of Doppler effect and lack of change in volume. The fourth is that when I am, for example, sitting at my junction station I don't want to hear sounds from the branch terminus, which is in reality only about six feet away but in my imaginary world would be about twenty miles distant.

 

I think that sound on small layouts, especially as the quality of the actual rendering improves, works well but it doesn't cut it for me on a big layout (unless it is so big, like that of one of my friends, that the trains really go so far away that you can't hear them any more. His railway room is 75 ft x 55 ft).

[coachmann]

My DCC Sound videos are uloaded to YouTube under Largo.  What you hear is what you get apart from the tiny DSLR camera mic making the sounds a little more tinny (same when I'm recording the keyboard). The shed section pretty well captures the real Carrog. A distant whistle is heard when trains are approaching from Corwen and it sounds distant because the trains are out on the garden section. Equally, the sound of trains tails off and disappears as they leave the other end of the shed to head for a fictional Glyndyfrdwy... 

Edited November 17, 2017 by coachmann

[St Enodoc]

My DCC Sound videos are uloaded to YouTube under Largo.  What you hear is what you get apart from the tiny DSLR camera mic making the sounds a little more tinny (same when I'm recording the keyboard). The shed section pretty well captures the real Carrog. A distant whistle is heard when trains are approaching from Corwen and it sounds distant because the trains are out on the garden section. Equally, the sound of trains tails off and disappears as they leave the other end of the shed to head for a fictional Glyndyfrdwy... 

Yes, garden lines would work as would lines with stations in different rooms. Do you switch off the sound when the trains are in the storage yard?