Is sound a)essential b) nice to have or c) neither

[Co-tr-Paul]

Sound? What's DCC ?

[PhilH]

I have a home layout with sound. When I have an operating session I like and appreciate the added realism it brings to the layout...for about ten minutes. Then it really starts to get on my nerves and I usually curtail the session. The really odd thing though is that if I operate without the sound it seems wrong somehow and I turn the sound back on.

 

So all in all I really don't know.

[Giz Puk]

I have a home layout with sound. When I have an operating session I like and appreciate the added realism it brings to the layout...for about ten minutes. Then it really starts to get on my nerves and I usually curtail the session. The really odd thing though is that if I operate without the sound it seems wrong somehow and I turn the sound back on.

 

So all in all I really don't know.

My missus used to get on my nerves and I couldn't wait to get a hearing aid so I could turn it off too.

Trouble is now I miss all those little squeaks and whines........... from the trains that is not her.

 

 WHAT WAS THAT??           SORRY LOVE... THE BATTERIES ARE FLAT AGAIN.... THAT'S WHY I'M SHOUTING!!!!!!!!  

Yours Aye,

Giz.

[Steamport Southport]

Personally it's not really for me. I did buy the full specification APT with sound though. Just in case.

 

 

In general I think it can be good if it's done right. I've seen a few layouts where it's been alright. But only two that had sound that added something extra to the layout. Neither of which were "too loud".

 

One was a small Southern Region branch line terminus with locomotives waiting on shed and in the station, it just oozed atmosphere.

 

The other was a large scale American narrow gauge line with locomotives with sound, steam and lights. I originally thought they were live steam they were so convincing.

 

 

If I can find their names then I'll post them.

 

 

 

Jason

[SRman]

I used to regularly attend exhibitions under the British Railway Modellers of Australia banner, where our layout was intended to demonstrate various things, including layout building, track laying, scenic work, magnetic coupling/uncoupling (Kadees), DC and DCC, and sound. I tried to strike a balance in the sound volumes, so people could hear the sounds over the general hubbub of the exhibition crowds, while not being so loud that it disturbed everyone around us. I can't say I always succeeded in getting the right balance, but at least I tried. We also had perspex screens around the layout which helped contain the sound within the boundaries of the layout - people would have to lean over the screens to hear the sounds properly.

DCC sound did interest a lot of people, though, so overall, I would say that of all the things we demonstrated with that layout, around 40% of the queries I handled related to DCC sound.

[John M Upton]

Maybe its my old age and wonky hearing but to me a lot of the sound fitted locos and units I hear at shows to me just sound quite frankly rather naff.  Also there seems to be a constant issue where something goes wrong and everything sudden unprototypically goes dead silent before much fiddling occurs and suddenly everything starts up simultaneously.

 

The sound made by hissing and the wheels over track joints on the live steam Gauge 1 layout at the Angmering show last weekend could never be replicated electronically and could not be bettered in my opinion.

Edited November 9, 2017 by John M Upton

[Steamport Southport]

Camel Quay was the Southern layout. I knew it was on here somewhere.

 

 

Watch the videos in posts #1116 and #1200 to see what I mean.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67862-camel-quay-a-north-cornwall-inspired-layout-in-4mm/page-45&do=findComment&comment=2118393

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67862-camel-quay-a-north-cornwall-inspired-layout-in-4mm/page-48&do=findComment&comment=2830804

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Black Hat]

Couldn't agree more Black Hat.

I only wish that everyone could afford to have a locomotive with working lights, firebox glow and associated shovelling and an acceptable degree of authenticity of true operating sounds. this also goes for the diesel brigade and not forgetting the upcoming electrical fleet followers.

With so many excellent services being offered by those you have mentioned and the advances in technology we have today who knows?

Afterall who who have thought ten years ago that the level of DCC control we see today would be readily available to the modeller on an average budget... Sound...N gauge? ...Never!!!!!!!!!!!

Yours Aye,

Giz

 

Thanks Giz.

 

There's some good news and bad. If you want to go down the route of having all the functions, then the firebox flicker light and smoke can be added too. Personally, I think the smoke doesn't look authentic, so leave that to imagination. That or a good fire and crew and there's no exhaust.

 

What you need to do is find the line that your comfortable with and then work towards it or stay at that standard. For me, it was lights onto engines, but most of my steam fleet now just have stick on lamps. The market like I said is catching up on the idea that functions can be added for the lights on engines that match settings on the chips. Biffos new class 68 is exactly what the market needs for this - and the standards for it need to continue into the future. It gives all options after an easy install just at the push of some buttons. Good sound programmers have had sounds like coal shovelling, rod clank, brake squeal added as standard and played automatically, for a while. I have this latter on one model that was purchased second hand. Its pretty much the party piece on the layout for having this. Making it the only one gives it that status but also gives it a little wow factor. Good for entertaining the crowds.

 

As the technology that started out gets more efficient and can be reduced in size, engines like the DJM J94 also offer an easy install. Digitrains sounds in this and a sugar cube work really well.

 

But as mentioned, some of the programmers vary in quality and some of these if played loudly can be distracting, but by and large most projects now are fine and supportive to get a decent atmosphere. Some really are excellent. Bryan at Howes western region engines are superb for steam, with the iconic chuff and pop sound a western region engine makes all brilliantly captured. His Castle class is a personal favourite.

 

As a result you still need to be selective over who does what and what you want to put in. Cheaper chips now like the Bachmann select or the Hornby TTS system are options now but by buying these you accept flaws, like chuff to wheel ratio is often out. Diesels seem more in keeping with accuracy. Some programmers have more following than others, and opinions sometimes can vary. There are some programmers that I wont go near, including the one that's getting set up with a Liverpool based retailer. Others like Howes, Biffo, Digitrains, SWD I have bought and been impressed. Others are new and arriving on the scene, or I just haven't purchased them.

 

But don't forget, half of the part of the engines looking good is also how they are driven and operated. If this isn't done properly, or its just thrash or round and round constantly then its never going to show its potential. Half the way sounds enhance the way the model works is that they match how it moves and that depends on how its driven. So yes, while it adds fun and interest, the showing and exhibiting also means that standards have to go up so that when you run, the way the engine performs is how you want it to and the better chips with the better sounds make more proper operation possible but that in turn means that the operator now performs too.

[Giz Puk]

Thanks Giz.

 

There's some good news and bad. If you want to go down the route of having all the functions, then the firebox flicker light and smoke can be added too. Personally, I think the smoke doesn't look authentic, so leave that to imagination. That or a good fire and crew and there's no exhaust.

 

What you need to do is find the line that your comfortable with and then work towards it or stay at that standard. For me, it was lights onto engines, but most of my steam fleet now just have stick on lamps. The market like I said is catching up on the idea that functions can be added for the lights on engines that match settings on the chips. Biffos new class 68 is exactly what the market needs for this - and the standards for it need to continue into the future. It gives all options after an easy install just at the push of some buttons. Good sound programmers have had sounds like coal shovelling, rod clank, brake squeal added as standard and played automatically, for a while. I have this latter on one model that was purchased second hand. Its pretty much the party piece on the layout for having this. Making it the only one gives it that status but also gives it a little wow factor. Good for entertaining the crowds.

 

As the technology that started out gets more efficient and can be reduced in size, engines like the DJM J94 also offer an easy install. Digitrains sounds in this and a sugar cube work really well.

 

But as mentioned, some of the programmers vary in quality and some of these if played loudly can be distracting, but by and large most projects now are fine and supportive to get a decent atmosphere. Some really are excellent. Bryan at Howes western region engines are superb for steam, with the iconic chuff and pop sound a western region engine makes all brilliantly captured. His Castle class is a personal favourite.

 

As a result you still need to be selective over who does what and what you want to put in. Cheaper chips now like the Bachmann select or the Hornby TTS system are options now but by buying these you accept flaws, like chuff to wheel ratio is often out. Diesels seem more in keeping with accuracy. Some programmers have more following than others, and opinions sometimes can vary. There are some programmers that I wont go near, including the one that's getting set up with a Liverpool based retailer. Others like Howes, Biffo, Digitrains, SWD I have bought and been impressed. Others are new and arriving on the scene, or I just haven't purchased them.

 

But don't forget, half of the part of the engines looking good is also how they are driven and operated. If this isn't done properly, or its just thrash or round and round constantly then its never going to show its potential. Half the way sounds enhance the way the model works is that they match how it moves and that depends on how its driven. So yes, while it adds fun and interest, the showing and exhibiting also means that standards have to go up so that when you run, the way the engine performs is how you want it to and the better chips with the better sounds make more proper operation possible but that in turn means that the operator now performs too.

Totally agree with everything you mentioned here with reference to both the functions provided and how we drive our locomotives.

I can't help thinking that we are so lucky to have both manufacturers and specialist sound providers alike who are willing to provide everyone with a sound option that is suitable for both their needs and their budget. 

Wouldn't it be nice if that at every exhibition someone had the time, inclination and patience to enable people both young and old, to 'have a go' at driving a locomotive 'properly'. I appreciate that many exhibitors may already do this at various events and this would not be feasible at large events as this may clog up the system and prevent the majority of people being able to get up close to layouts due to the crowd waiting to take their turn.

What better way of encouraging those we see at events who are too timid to approach exhibitors for fear of being looked down upon, than to get them to feel part of our community and to educate at the same time.

I also think it would be good if one day manufacturers supplied all locomotives (and rolling stock where applicable) with the facility and space to easily and quickly fit speakers, chips and lights similar to a plug and play format. I know some will say that certain suppliers and manufacturers already do this, but some of these systems are currently beyond the acceptable price range that modellers on a budget are able to afford and if we wish that sound is to become a highly desired and achievable function then it needs to be simple to fit, operate and update as the quality improves.

All my locomotives currently have non-operating lights, but should I ever be able to go over to DCC than I can think of nothing better than can add to the realism of a layout than the use of lights and sound........ other than realistic smells of course but that's another subject in itself.

I just know that a new thread will spring up now concerning the lighting of layouts and do exhibitors have theirs on too bright, and when is an exhibition hall too dark.......... bring on the lighting police.

Other than the excellent and intuitive..... though deemed controversial to many, layout depicting 'The Great Train Robbery' ,do any other layouts get exhibited as winter/night time rosters?

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[phil-b259]

I would say sound works well for diesel and electric traction where, particularly with recent builds exhaust emissions are negligible.

By contrast sound fitted steam always jars - most movement is accompanied by emissions of steam, smoke and water from various orafaces - which is very difficult to portray in model form.

Given we don't have 4mm scale people actively moving and moving road vehicles are a rarity the inclusion of sound in most cases doesn't actually do that much for realism in the overall scheme of things.

Edited November 15, 2017 by phil-b259

[Ross34]

I don't mind sound - anything that adds to the atmos must be good I suppose.

 

But.. it is way too expensive IMO and the sound of steam doesn't have the impact in model form that diesel has.

 

Also, and this where sound fitted locos sort of fall down is that they highlight "what isn't there" .. wheel noise on rails, doors slamming, voices, road traffic sounds, weather and environmental noise (rain, wind, streams and rivers, livestock or animal calls  etc)... I'm sure there are many other incidental noise sources that spring to mind.

 

For me a stationary diesel loco ticking over (which is what most often springs to my mind when I think of sound) doesn't seem to be fulfilling the potential sound has.

The Americans have extras like the shunting and grade crossing bell noises but little else that I can recall.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that to make sound appear realistic you need to go the "whole hog"... include all the other sounds I've mentioned above with the inclusion of layout lighting effects that simulate day and night (plus building and street lighting)- the layout almost needs to be like a theatre production.

 

Kind of thing I'm thinking of..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rw8VMLLlH4

[Dunsignalling]

I would say sound works well for diesel and electric traction where, particularly with recent builds exhaust emissions are negligible.

 

By contrast sound fitted steam always jars - most movement is accompanied by emissions of steam, smoke and water from various orafaces - which is very difficult to portray in model form.

 

Given we don't have 4mm scale people actively moving and moving road vehicles are a rareity the inclusion of sound in most cases doesn't actually do that much for realism in the overall scheme of things.

The more you add, the more you notice what's still missing..................

 

John

[Giz Puk]

I don't mind sound - anything that adds to the atmos must be good I suppose.

 

But.. it is way too expensive IMO and the sound of steam doesn't have the impact in model form that diesel has.

 

Also, and this where sound fitted locos sort of fall down is that they highlight "what isn't there" .. wheel noise on rails, doors slamming, voices, road traffic sounds, weather and environmental noise (rain, wind, streams and rivers, livestock or animal calls  etc)... I'm sure there are many other incidental noise sources that spring to mind.

 

For me a stationary diesel loco ticking over (which is what most often springs to my mind when I think of sound) doesn't seem to be fulfilling the potential sound has.

The Americans have extras like the shunting and grade crossing bell noises but little else that I can recall.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that to make sound appear realistic you need to go the "whole hog"... include all the other sounds I've mentioned above with the inclusion of layout lighting effects that simulate day and night (plus building and street lighting)- the layout almost needs to be like a theatre production.

 

Kind of thing I'm thinking of..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rw8VMLLlH4

AS James May would say.....'Thats my kind of train set'

 

Thanks for sharing..... i'm now off to Cogload Junction to get my weekly fix from 'The Ministry Of Sound' also known as the West Coast line.

Anyone who likes the Beach Boys  knows the best sounds come from the West Coast .... Although I know the East Coast Massive will beg to differ.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[Mike Storey]

I can understand the various points of view expressed, and this will always be a very subjective issue.

 

But, personally, I increasingly find the absolutely silent operation of layouts at exhibitions rather bizarre and, to be frank, boring. That was not true many years ago. Of course one can admire the skill and attention that has gone into any model and layout, and for the very best, that can grab my attention enough to ponder for a long time, without any sound. But the movement of the trains in silence then takes something away for me now.

 

I also understand the personal imagination being used when running a silent layout at home, which compensates for the lack of anything other than the kinetic vision. But as many have said, sound for me adds to my personal enjoyment when driving the train or loco, as feedback to ensure I am doing it the way it would have been done.

[Dunsignalling]

I have, but don't any more if I can avoid it, taken part in "night time" running sessions on a few multi-operator layouts under "blue lights". 

 

Complete P.I.T.A., with or without sound.

 

Hard work and nobody can properly see what they are doing so mistakes happen and every five minutes the lights go up to clear them up and you have to get your eyes accustomed to the gloom all over again. Guaranteed to give me a headache. 

 

John

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[bike2steam]

But, personally, I increasingly find the absolutely silent operation of layouts at exhibitions rather bizarre and, to be frank, boring. 

Each to their own as I said a few posts earlier, as an unashamedly steam only fan, I find sound at exhibitions a good source of hilarity - at plenty of those that just can't get it right.

[GeoffAlan]

Having only heard sound at Shows, I think it's best for diesels and rather poor on steam locos. 

 

Both work best on a small layout where loco speeds are low, and locos spend a deal of time stationary. However, on steam locos, the only ones I've heard seem set to simulate setting away and pulling hard at low speed. The few I've seen passing at speed sound completely wrong, in that they are chuffing hard where they would be on a small cutoff relying on expansion of the steam to do a high proportion of the work.

 

I hope I've described this in a way people will understand.

 

On diesels they seem to have idling sorted out and when the loco sets away the revs can be heard to rise before slowly dropping off as the loco moves into cruising speed.

[Mike Storey]

I know

 

Having only heard sound at Shows, I think it's best for diesels and rather poor on steam locos. 

 

Both work best on a small layout where loco speeds are low, and locos spend a deal of time stationary. However, on steam locos, the only ones I've heard seem set to simulate setting away and pulling hard at low speed. The few I've seen passing at speed sound completely wrong, in that they are chuffing hard where they would be on a small cutoff relying on expansion of the steam to do a high proportion of the work.

 

I hope I've described this in a way people will understand.

 

On diesels they seem to have idling sorted out and when the loco sets away the revs can be heard to rise before slowly dropping off as the loco moves into cruising speed.

 

I know what you mean, but I think that is changing for steam sounds with many of the latest releases, where cut off can be altered at any speed or simulated load, so it can be better adjusted to realism.

 

It used to be true that diesel sound was only related to its speed, but it is almost unheard of now to buy a chip which does not allow coasting, or throttling down, or up, without affecting the speed (or very slowly under inertia). So I would not give up hope on steam sounds yet! The advent of newer speakers can also only help.

 

Given the expense of sound chips, and even though re-blows are relatively cheaper, they are often confounded by incompatibility on older chips, or of different makes, so it may be some time before a majority of steam locos are better equipped. It is still taking time for diesels to improve - I know I cannot afford to re-chip mine all in one year - it is going to take several, by which time even better versions, speakers and control systems may be available. I can't keep up!

[letterspider]

as long as we are happy, can afford it and the manufacturers are making a profit - not only is sound here to stay but I expect we will eventually see genetically engineered minature passengers and station staff as well!

[jonny777]

One of the best exhibition layouts I can remember from a few years ago, was a 7mm diesel depot where each loco had sound. The volume was not set too loud, but with a couple of 37s and 47s ticking over outside the shed it took me right back to my spotting days. 

 

Then a 25 started up from inside the depot and slowly meandered off-shed to the opposite end of the layout behind the scenic break bridge. I know this may appear to be a cacophony of competing sounds, but to me it was wonderful nostalgia but there before my eyes in model form. 

 

I could have stood there watching for hours, but had a pre-arranged appointment elsewhere - sadly, as it now turns out. 

 

Anyone who stood at the platform end at Kings Cross in the late 60s/early 70s will know exactly what I mean; even when there were breaks in main line departures.

 

The 47s and peaks all blended in with 31s on ECS and suburban services. Cravens DMUs rasped away into the tunnels, and above all that there would be two or three Deltics humming away with one or two revving up with that high pitched note as they shuffled up and down the station throat on their way to/from the stabling point. 

 

That cannot be replicated properly without sound fitted locos. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by jonny777

[bike2steam]

 - not only is sound here to stay but I expect we will eventually see genetically engineered minature passengers and station staff as well!

Cor ! - just think what the price'd be, then some would moan.

[Mike Storey]

One of the best exhibition layouts I can remember from a few years ago, was a 7mm diesel depot where each loco had sound. The volume was not set too loud, but with a couple of 37s and 47s ticking over outside the shed it took me right back to my spotting days. 

 

Then a 25 started up from inside the depot and slowly meandered off-shed to the opposite end of the layout behind the scenic break bridge. I know this may appear to be a cacophony of competing sounds, but to me it was wonderful nostalgia but there before my eyes in model form. 

 

I could have stood there watching for hours, but had a pre-arranged appointment elsewhere - sadly, as it now turns out. 

 

Anyone who stood at the platform end at Kings Cross in the late 60s/early 70s will know exactly what I mean; even when there were breaks in main line departures.

 

The 47s and peaks all blended in with 31s on ECS and suburban services. Cravens DMUs rasped away into the tunnels, and above all that there would be two or three Deltics humming away with one or two revving up with that high pitched note as they shuffled up and down the station throat on their way to/from the stabling point. 

 

That cannot be replicated properly without sound fitted locos. 

 

"Rasping" - that is a great word for DMU sound. I shall now steal it and use it, a lot.....

[Keith George]

AS James May would say.....'Thats my kind of train set'

 

Thanks for sharing..... i'm now off to Cogload Junction to get my weekly fix from 'The Ministry Of Sound' also known as the West Coast line.

Anyone who likes the Beach Boys  knows the best sounds come from the West Coast .... Although I know the East Coast Massive will beg to differ.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

 

The Beach boys, turning your hearing aids off when the wife is complaining., and of course the Bridgewater smell.!

 

Are you my twin ?   GOOD VIBRATIONS !!

 

Keith

[Gwiwer]

I consider sound to be a "nice to have" add-on though it has to be carefully managed.  It really only needs to be in the background since it is difficult to scale.  While sound locos can easily be drowned out by the normal level of human conversation to have the volume at a level where it dominates means it becomes intrusive after a length of time and deafening in a few instances where a motive power depot or station has multiple locos all idling or powering at the same time.

 

Any one who has stood on platform ends and been among the sounds of the "real" railway would know that too can be very loud at times but on the whole it does not drown out speech neither do individual sounds necessarily get lost in the overall hubbub.  

 

I have heard good and less-than-good sound fitted to models.  A lot is tinny though better understanding of sound reproduction and use of bass speakers seems to be addressing that.  Not every type or class exists to be recorded so of necessity some sounds are generic or synthesised.  

 

The additional cost of sound-equipped locos is definitely an issue for quite a number of us as is the generally-held belief (whether rightly or wrongly) that the sounds only work on DCC.  Sound adds to the overall effect when done really well but can detract when three or four locos are ticking over amid lounge or shed acoustics rather than in the open air.  

 

As with many aspects of this hobby it is to each their own.  I don't use sound-equipped locos.  I have used public-domain sound clips dubbed onto videos of moving trains.  And with perfectly good rail beats at just about the right interval occurring "naturally" as metal wheels cross the tiny expansion gaps between my yard-lengths of Code 100 track.  Flange squeal - now that's another matter and something my layout lacked.  None of us is perfect!

[jonny777]

If you didn't understand what I meant by my Kings Cross reference, here is an example - 

 

 

kings cross second.mp3