GWR coach colour in June 1949

[coachmann]

There is a picture of the Down 'Torbay Express' dated June 1949 on the back cover of Modellers Backtrack for June-July 1993. The first three coaches are Hawksworth, then a toplight composite, a 1920 Collett composite , a 9' 7" wide dining car and four 1930 'Sunshine' coaches. All are in chocolate & cream, as one might expect at this date, afterall BR had only started painting coaches carmine & cream a few weeks earlier so they would be pretty thin on the ground.

 

The interesting thing was the Hawksworth coaches. Mostly delivered after Nationalization in 1948, they had been outshopped in GW company colours with BR numbering. BUT they were amongst the dirtiest coaches in the whole train, in fact the second coach was virtually brown & brown!

 

All the other coaches were probably carrying post-war livery with brown band above windows, except the dining car which looked to be in prewar livery with cream right up to the gutter (having been brought out of wartime storage and given a grey roof).

 

From this it is clear coaches soon got dirty during this period and the newest stock was not necesserily the cleanest. I thought this might provide food for thought.

 

Larry

[Rugd1022]

Interesting points Larry

 

If you look at the two volumes of Bradford Barton 'GW Steam In Cornwall' you'll find several shots c.1950 of chocolate / cream stock with W prefixed numbers, in various states of weathering - although some must be nearly new, they look quite mucky, especially compared to some of the blood and custard liveried stock in the same books.

 

On a slightly related note - I know that the WR repainted some ex- GWR catering vehicles into chocolate and cream livery, do you know when this was? (I'm guessing that it might have been done to coincide with repainting rakes of newish Mk1s but am not certain).

 

HTH / cheers,

 

Nidge

[Re6/6]

There are some interesting photos in 'Russell GW coaches appendix 1' at the beginning showing a diagram A2 clerestory 1st in what looks like newly repainted chocolate and cream with BR numbering and the first class number 1 painted on all doors, taken in 1951. Also there's another Dean coach in all-over chocolate (scruffy) also with BR 1st numbers on the doors, taken in 1952. Also there are several Toplights in the new crimson and cream livery, taken in 1950.

 

It would seem that around that period, anything goes!

[asmay2002]

The interesting thing was the Hawksworth coaches. Mostly delivered after Nationalization in 1948, they had been outshopped in GW company colours with BR numbering. BUT they were amongst the dirtiest coaches in the whole train, in fact the second coach was virtually brown & brown! All the other coaches were probably carrying post-war livery with brown band above windows, except the dining car which looked to be in prewar livery with cream right up to the gutter (having been brought out of wartime storage and given a grey roof).

 

From this it is clear coaches soon got dirty during this period and the newest stock was not necesserily the cleanest. I thought this might provide food for thought.

 

Very intersting point Larry and it's a reminder that two different things were happening to the painted surfaces.

 

Firstly the paint itself was exposed to light and chemical action which would cause fading, and where any varnish was involved, yellowing. This happens regardless of how clean the coach was. Anything painted with white lead (or greys based on white lead0 would get darker until almost black - even when clean - due to a chemical reaction in the paint with the sulphrous fumes from the locos. (i.e you can model a clean but weathered finish of coach long out of the paintshops which has just been washed).

 

Secondly we have the dirt from the surrounding environment - grey/black ash from the locos and rusty brown from the action of the brake blocks.

[Brinkly]

I supose they wanted to use the supply of paint and material up before building 'new' carriages, after all we had just won a war!

 

Regards,

 

NIck

[Coombe Barton]

I know there were deposits from steam locos in all areas, but was there a difference in colour attenuation between stock on, say, London and Birmingham suburban services and maybe in South Wales, where atmospheric poloution was higher, and those in more country areas?

[coachmann]

Nidge, the ex-GWR dining cars and other special vehicles would almost certainly have recieved brown & cream after 1956. The Western Region had a host of interesting catering vehicles that had been partially rebuilt from their original state and most got the new W.Region 'identity' livery.

 

As has been said by others localised polution had a key affect on paintwork. Exposure to sea air, regular use on a tunnel dominated route and what not. It was also said that coaches had odd sides due to exposure to sun on certain routes.

 

Using up supplies of company paint was certainly important during the postwar austerity and rationing period. But I also suspect the companies were having a last-fling right up to May 1949 when BR would have wanted its key trains out in the new carmine & cream for the summer. I've come across a shot of a teak corridor coach with white roof and yellow lining out, outshopped in 1949! Now that must have been a rare bird seeing as white roofs were not carried by Thompson coaches and lining was abolished circa 1940.

 

The Southern Region had the best of it as the malachite green was so hard wearing it was simply kept going well into the 1950s with revarnishing. In fact, a lot of SR coaches missed carmine & cream completely. LG

[Rugd1022]

Thanks for the confirmation on the WR vehicles Larry . Along this line I have another question for you - were any of the 'Centenary' vehicles repainted into chocolate and cream?

 

It's a while since I've done any coaching stock but I'm keen to get going again...... which in a round about way means I'm looking forward to the Hawksworth stock that's coming out!

 

Wandering around the NRM yesterday it struck me how much work must have gone into maintaining a good finish on the real stuff...

 

Nidge

[coachmann]

Centenaries in BR 1956 brown & cream? For some reason I doubt it although I have not looked up any colour photos to back this up. Pe-war 'prestige' vehicles were not what the railways required after the war so they probably went to camine & cream then lined maroon.

[Rugd1022]

Ok Larry, thanks for that

 

Nidge

[robertcwp]

When the Western Region reintroduced chocolate and cream for principal named trains from the Summer of 1956, almost all of the stock used was BR Mark I except for the catering cars - single vehicles in some cases (eg Bristolian, Torbay Express) or pairs (eg Cornish Riviera). These were all GWR designs. From September 1957, the production batch of Mark I Unclassed Restaurants (RU) began entering service, with W1901-16 being chocolate and cream. However, several named trains retained their GWR catering cars for several years (eg Cornish Riviera, Bristolian, Red Dragon). I'm not aware of any Centenary stock having been painted in BR chocolate and cream but the GWR super saloons certainly were as they were used on the Ocean Liner trains to and from Plymouth.

 

Here is a list of ex-GWR diners believed to have carried BR choc/cream:

 

9524

9543

9550

9553

9557

9560

9563

9571

9574-6

9586

9591(not sure about this one)

9614

9615

9617-9

9623-5

9629

9663

9672

9673

9677

9678

9696

 

Super saloons:

9112

9114

9115

9118

& others

 

BCK (Hawksworth - used with Royal Train vehicles)

7372

7377

 

Slip

7072

7073

7074

7373(not sure about this one)

7374

7375

7376

[robertcwp]

Here is my list of BR choc/cream stock - compiled from many sources over several years. I can't guarantee completeness or accuracy but would welcome any corrections or additional information.

Choc cream _2010_.pdf

[Rugd1022]

Fantastic stuff Robert

 

Nidge