Suffolk PO wagons - Why aren't there any?

[Lu4472ke]

One thing I cant help but noticing about the RTR market is there is a lot of private owner wagons, from all over the country, but why aren't there any from Suffolk? why are the manufactures neglecting it? the mid Suffolk railway will occasionally commission Dapol for a mid Suffolk wagon, but no one does a wagons in a livery from Suffolk as a production run. why? and also what businesses based in suffolk had wagons? 

[George Leacon]

Where?

[Longhaireddavid]

Oh, Ha Ha. It isn't all tractors and sheep up here, you know - grin.

 

David

From the  Ipswich Waterfront

[Lu4472ke]

Where?

 

what do you mean?

[Lu4472ke]

what do you mean?

 

I didn't make it clear. why are manufacturers I.E Hornby, Bachmann etc not making wagons in liveries that were used by independent traders in Suffolk.

[Spannerman]

The reason, as any NCFC fan will tell you, is that nothing good came out of Suffolk.

 

Nik

[Ravenser]

I presume someone's done MOY - the biggest coal merchant in the area?

[Talltim]

I presume someone's done MOY - the biggest coal merchant in the area?

From a quick google it appears that no one since Mainline have. There is an ex-Moy weathered BR period open with added coke rails by Bachmann

[Bernard Lamb]

I presume someone's done MOY - the biggest coal merchant in the area?

 

But they were based in Essex and as we all know that county is much more interesting.    

Bernard (born in Danbury)

[bike2steam]

One thing I cant help but noticing about the RTR market is there is a lot of private owner wagons, from all over the country, but why aren't there any from Suffolk? why are the manufactures neglecting it? the mid Suffolk railway will occasionally commission Dapol for a mid Suffolk wagon, but no one does a wagons in a livery from Suffolk as a production run. why? and also what businesses based in suffolk had wagons? 

 

Probably a case of supply, and demand. If you and a few thousand other Suffolk based railway modellers (?) got in touch with the manufacturers, then perhaps they might take notice.  

[admiles]

Probably because as lovely as Suffolk is (and I'm Suffolk born, bred and residing) it's a small rural county with

not that many people living in it. I suspect most of the UK's population would struggle to point to "us" on the map.

 

And long may it stay that way!!

Edited February 20, 2018 by admiles

[tanatvalley]

Or is it because the coal was, in the main, delivered in colliery owned wagons?

[Guy Rixon]

The coverage by RTR manufacturers of most areas is poor. I don't think that they have it in for Suffolk particularly.

 

A bit of research into the local merchants might reveal which collieries and factors (e.g. Moy, who were wholesalers) supplied the retailers and this could start to fill the gap.

 

After that, there's always POWsides.

[PaulG]

Luke, as you say very few reasonably accurate RTR PO vehicles have been produced (see my 4mm East Anglia document I posted earlier this month) the only Suffolk based ones I know of are:

 

Bachmann 37-101U PO Ridley’s Coal & Iron Bury St Edmunds. (Model Junction 012684 753456) limited edition

 

Hornby R6377 6-wheel milk tank wagon "Aplin & Barrett Ltd" (ex Lima range) A&B were taken over by United Dairies, which owned depots at North Elmham, Halesworth and Ilford.

Hornby R6579 4-plank ‘The Newmarket Co-op’ No.1. Livery "looks right" against available photos; perhaps omit black iron and black underframe and paint to match body. Body ends need raising slightly.

 

A number of groups have used Dapol to produced East Anglia based PO wagons, but the base models are inaccurate. Typically, the wheelbase has been 10ft with a steel underframe, whereas the prototypes had a 9ft wheelbase with a timber underframe, also overall wagon body is too long; brake gear, planks and strapping may also be inaccurate.

 

Paul

[wagonman]

There were small local coal merchants in East Anglia but the trade was dominated by a few big companies like Moy (main offices in Peterborough and Colchester). Ipswich had Booths, Mellonie & Goulder, Stevenson, and doubtless others.

 

The problem with wishing for the RtR manufacturers to produce suitable wagons is that they have never knowingly produced an accurate one. As Guy Rixon says, "there's always POWsides".

[justin1985]

There was a three pack of Bachmann East Anglian coal traders wagons years ago, probably in their very early days on the market. That included a Mellonie & Goulder, Ipswich, and Fulcher, Norwich, wagons. I can't remember the third one.

 

MOY were by far the biggest coal merchant in East Anglia and had an extensive private owner fleet serving yards all over the region, not just Essex. The Great Eastern Society Journal had an article recently looking at all the different private owners visible in the background of some of the best pre-grouping photos of the region.

 

In 4mm you've got the POWsides transfers, which I think include some relevant options. If there's an ideal project for a first step in stripping and re painting a model, it's got to be a private owner wagon!

[eastglosmog]

Probably not what the OP was thinking of, but Moy also had PO wagons on the 3ft Southwold railway and I believe 9 Lines did a kit for them.

[Wickham Green]

You should get a good idea of what ran in and around Suffolk from delving into http://lightmoor.co.uk/category.php?section=CatPrivateOwner ............Keith Turton does list models - but, naturally, he's well out of date now ! 

[Guy Rixon]

One thing to consider is how the coal got to the area. Coal that came all the way from the colliery by rail might be in the colliery's wagons, but coal that came by see would not: a coal factor's wagons would replace the colliery wagons. Retailers wagons could be in both flows. However, the coal factors often owned the ships and they might have preferred to use their own wagons for efficiency in handling when the ship came in.

[ianLMS]

 

Luke, as you say very few reasonably accurate RTR PO vehicles have been produced (see my 4mm East Anglia document I posted earlier this month) the only Suffolk based ones I know of are:

 

Bachmann 37-101U PO Ridley’s Coal & Iron Bury St Edmunds. (Model Junction 012684 753456) limited edition

 

Hornby R6377 6-wheel milk tank wagon "Aplin & Barrett Ltd" (ex Lima range) A&B were taken over by United Dairies, which owned depots at North Elmham, Halesworth and Ilford.

Hornby R6579 4-plank ‘The Newmarket Co-op’ No.1. Livery "looks right" against available photos; perhaps omit black iron and black underframe and paint to match body. Body ends need raising slightly.

 

A number of groups have used Dapol to produced East Anglia based PO wagons, but the base models are inaccurate. Typically, the wheelbase has been 10ft with a steel underframe, whereas the prototypes had a 9ft wheelbase with a timber underframe, also overall wagon body is too long; brake gear, planks and strapping may also be inaccurate.

 

Paul

 

Just a note to say that Model Junction's phone number is 01284 753456, not 012684. Its a lovely little shop which I have been visiting regularly for over 30 years!!! Good stock of OO and N gauge with a few garden type locos (G scale maybe), lots of scenic stuff, track etc and a large array of Airfix models and RC cars etc. Highly recommend it for anyone visiting Bury St Edmunds!  http://www.model-junction.co.uk/

 

No affiliation, its just my local shop and they have always looked after me!!!

[Poggy1165]

If you went off what RTR (and kit suppliers) provided, you could be forgiven for thinking that the coal trade in this country was dominated by the western shires, with some contribution from the southern area. You would scarcely think that anything came from South Yorkshire or Lancashire. You would think that the Forest of Dean was by far the biggest coalfield, with a few pits in South Wales and Somerset.

 

I suspect this has something to do with what most modellers (of the era requiring PO wagons) model.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Poggy1165

[Classsix T]

The reason, as any NCFC fan will tell you, is that nothing good came out of Suffolk.

 

Nik

Delia lives here buh!

 

C6T. (whether that proves your point, I know not!)

[wagonman]

One thing to consider is how the coal got to the area. Coal that came all the way from the colliery by rail might be in the colliery's wagons, but coal that came by see would not: a coal factor's wagons would replace the colliery wagons. Retailers wagons could be in both flows. However, the coal factors often owned the ships and they might have preferred to use their own wagons for efficiency in handling when the ship came in.

 

 

A lot of coal came down the GN/GE joint line from Doncaster, much of it in colliery wagons no doubt – ports in North Norfolk had ceased importing coal by sea by 1900, in many cases much earlier. 

[Caledonian]

Or is it because the coal was, in the main, delivered in colliery owned wagons?

 

The short answer is no. There's always a precendent for everything of course but unless it was very local ex colliery traffic tended to travel in bulk directly to a large industrial user or to a coal factor like Moy, before either being trans-shipped by the factor to the customer, or by a coal merchant buying it from the factor. The sort of scenario you might therefore see is colliery traffic to Moy, and then a wagonload of coal to say Long Melford either in one of Moy's own wagons or in a local coal merchant's wagon.

.

Keeping it simple on a Suffolk themed layout, stick with Moy   

[2750Papyrus]

There was a three pack of Bachmann East Anglian coal traders wagons years ago, probably in their very early days on the market. That included a Mellonie & Goulder, Ipswich, and Fulcher, Norwich, wagons. I can't remember the third one.

 

MOY were by far the biggest coal merchant in East Anglia and had an extensive private owner fleet serving yards all over the region, not just Essex. The Great Eastern Society Journal had an article recently looking at all the different private owners visible in the background of some of the best pre-grouping photos of the region.

 

In 4mm you've got the POWsides transfers, which I think include some relevant options. If there's an ideal project for a first step in stripping and re painting a model, it's got to be a private owner wagon!

 

I think the third wagon in the Bachmann set (at least it's coupled to the other two on my layout!) was Wrights of Colchester.  Not strictly a wagon but Mainline produced a very colourful container for Frasers' of Ipswich, whose EBay appearances are occasional and expensive!