Backing into stations

[pH]

I went into Vancouver on the Skytrain (rapid transit) earlier this week, and the route passes over the large triangle outside Pacific Central station. This triangle is used, amongst other things, for turning some arriving passenger trains to allow them to be backed into the station. This is (was) quite a common North American practice for passenger trains arriving in terminal stations. It got me thinking – how common was it for passenger trains to be backed into stations in Britain?

 

I know it happened in the earlier days of British railways – places like Carlisle and Girvan come to mind. But where did it continue after nationalisation? I can think of three places:

 

- Inverness, with trains from both Perth and the Far North lines

- Scarborough, with trains from the Whitby line

- Templecombe, with northbound Somerset & Dorset trains (though a pilot engine was attached for these moves)

 

but there must have been more. Where else did it happen from 1948 onwards?

[Tim Chambers]

Dorchester South-eastbound trains reversed into the up platform which "pointed" west,built when hopes were that the line would form a south coast route to Exeter.

[kiltedsignaller]

Dorchester South-eastbound trains reversed into the up platform which "pointed" west,built when hopes were that the line would form a south coast route to Exeter.

 

 

I didn't know that, Tim. It explains everything. What a scenic route that would have been, had it come to fruition.

[edcayton]

There was the palava at Templecombe on the S&D, but they used an extra loco so that may not count. ISTR that Middleton-in-Teesdale started life as a terminus, but was bypassed later and left a legacy of trains having to either reverse in or out.

Then there is always the "next stage on " from a trainset where the station is in the middle so once a train has departed there is no way of getting it back ehere it started!

 

Ed

[Gwiwer]

It wasn't a regular occurrence but Heart of Wales line trains sometimes ran via the Landore Loop and were "reversed" into Swansea station. I have also had one depart towards Neath and reverse onto the Landore Loop before heading off to Llanelli. I use the term "reverse" here advisedly since the dmu stock concerned was being driven from the trailing end due to some sort of defect on those occasions.

 

I have also recorded the overnight London - Fort William train sometimes reversed down Cowlairs bank through the tunnel to Glasgow Queen Street (!!!) from time to time. The train used to approach from Motherwell via Gartcosh Junction and run through Springburn. In those days there was no direct curve to turn east to south (as there now is) at what was then Turkey Yard. On one occasion I found myself being shunted downhill to Queen Street from Eastfield Passenger Loop and on another occasion we came to a stand on Cowlairs West to North curve and then set back over the Up (i.e. northbound) road all the way to Queen Street.

 

Those seemingly unorthodox moves appeared to relate to the need to couple the overnight coaches onto the "day" stock in Queen Street before the then 06.00 departure for Fort William. If no shunt loco was available or the stock had to be turned to keep the sleeping cars at the correct end then it seems these moves were among the options available. On one occasion with the electric-to-diesel loco change performed at Motherwell Depot the rat was clearly going to be the only one used on that train and reversed into Queen Street before assuming the normal direction of travel to Fort William.

 

Did loco-operated trains ever "reverse" into Filey Holiday Camp or were they always run-round / provided with drop-on locos? In the same area trains were occasionally turned via the Cottingham Branch triangle outside Hull station which may have resulted in them reversing into the terminal platforms; I have a note that a summer Saturday Filey Holiday Camp - Leeds - Sheffield working, nominally not serving Hull and therefore coming around the Cottingham Branch, may have in fact done this for working purposes. Others may have done so to avoid a loco change or run-round in Hull station.

[Pennine MC]

In the same area trains were occasionally turned via the Cottingham Branch triangle outside Hull station which may have resulted in them reversing into the terminal platforms; I have a note that a summer Saturday Filey Holiday Camp - Leeds - Sheffield working, nominally not serving Hull and therefore coming around the Cottingham Branch, may have in fact done this for working purposes. Others may have done so to avoid a loco change or run-round in Hull station.

 

As ever, I'd like to know where the evidence behind the said 'note' has come from :icon_confused: The Anlaby Road curve was certainly routinely used for summer trains between the Brid line and the Doncaster/Leeds 'main' line out of Hull, in order to avoid reversal in Paragon and was actually a mid-60s replacement for the Cott South to Hessle Road line which served the same purpose. The curve also carried freight at one time, leaving the main yards near Hessle and leaving the city by a circuitous route, and IIRC was sometimes used for turning DMUs and rakes of LHCS. I'd doubt very much that anything carrying passengers was reversed from Anlaby Road into Paragon, as the distance is a good mile or so, not the short, train-length hops as at Inverness or Dorchester. If Mike Nicholson drops by this, he'll surely know.

 

Did loco-operated trains ever "reverse" into Filey Holiday Camp or were they always run-round / provided with drop-on locos?

 

Filey HC was a relatively modern station with long runround roads in between pairs of platforms, hence I'd think unlikely

 

Another significant example, that does fit the OP qualification, is Shipley, where Skipton-bound DMUs from Leeds reversed into a platform on the curve coming from the Bradford direction until a platform was built on the main line

[John_Hughes]

I seem to remember that this happened at Gloucester for trains between Bristol and Brum until the 1970s; can anyone confirm this?

[great central]

Not quite sure if this counts in the context of the OP, but there was a working from Nottingham-Lincoln which called at both Newark Castle and Northgate. I have worked it in the past, you leave Castle, go over the flat crossing, change ends and 'reverse' into Northgate. It was usually a 153, but since the big timetable change last year, Nottingham depot doesn't work it, and it may have ceased altogether or been replaced by a Northgate-Lincoln service as the Nottingham-Lincoln bit is now the last bit of the St Pancras-Lincoln through service

[Michael Delamar]

good clip of a train reversing into scarborough station

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOcpqHB7C1k

 

Mike

[Bomag]

Acording to Sub Brit the Horncaslte trains reversed out of Woodall Spa as the connection faced the other way. Also the through trains to/form Catterick garrison may have reversed into Catterick bridge to alow the enging to run round.

[DavidBelcher]

I did once catch a Birmingham-Aberystwyth service from New St. to Wolverhampton in the days of the the Wales & West franchise (a silver "Alphaline" 158, I think it was), which rather oddly used the North bay platform at Wolverhampton instead of one of the through roads! At first I thought the driver had missed the stop, until we started to reverse back into the station over the Wednesfield Road bridge. Don't know if this was a regular occurence or not.

 

David

[Pennine MC]

I seem to remember that this happened at Gloucester for trains between Bristol and Brum until the 1970s; can anyone confirm this?

 

After the closure of Glos Eastgate, NE/SW trains ran into and out of Central but AFAIK the reversal involved a turnover loco (until the advent of HSTs anyway)

[298]

It still happens at Carstairs, where the Edinburgh portion of the southbound sleeper is backed onto the Glasgow loco & coaches.

[70022Tornado]

I seem to remember that this happened at Gloucester for trains between Bristol and Brum until the 1970s; can anyone confirm this?

 

Ah! Gloucester many childhood memories ! IIRC the cheltenham London trains used to reverse at the GWR station, the locos on this Cheltenham Gloucestor leg were a mixed bag mainly large praries though I do reecall, posibly from a photograph of a 94XX heading for Gloucester at the head of the Cheltenham Spa Express. Normally a Hall or Castle backed on to the other end for the run down to Swindon. LMR trains usually Jubillee hauled would run into the LMS station and did not require reversing.

 

In the late 60's Swindon and Bristol trains began to run into the old LMS station of Eastgate and Swindon trains would regain the route via Sapperton at Standish Junction. Wether any alterations at Standish were neccesary I do not know.

 

With full desilisation came property developers and the whole of the LMS site became offices. All trains other than South Wales services had to reverse at Gloucesters very long platform, IIRC there was a scisors crossing, half way along. Reversing in or out did not matter to an HST or other demu. Loco hauled train were IIRC "top and tailed" in.

 

The result was that very few north and south trains called at Gloucester.That cities main traffic was supported by DMUs on a SWindon - Newport shuttle and the South Wales Brum DMUs. Occasional HST called and reversed.

 

Trust this is helpfull.

 

70022

[DavidBelcher]

In the late 60's Swindon and Bristol trains began to run into the old LMS station of Eastgate and Swindon trains would regain the route via Sapperton at Standish Junction. Wether any alterations at Standish were neccesary I do not know.

 

Apparently, yes. The junction was re-modelled in 1964 to allow London trains to come off the Stroud line and gain the ex-LMS pair of tracks towards Eastgate (this was formerly a 4-track section effectively paired by ownership pre-1948). Prior to this the only connection had been in the opposite direction, so that cross-country GW services from Cheltenham and beyond could use LMS metals to reach Bristol and the South-West (following the present-day route and regaining the GW at Westerleigh rather than being sent via Mangotsfield).

 

David

[pete_mcfarlane]

Not quite sure if this counts in the context of the OP, but there was a working from Nottingham-Lincoln which called at both Newark Castle and Northgate. I have worked it in the past, you leave Castle, go over the flat crossing, change ends and 'reverse' into Northgate. It was usually a 153, but since the big timetable change last year, Nottingham depot doesn't work it, and it may have ceased altogether or been replaced by a Northgate-Lincoln service as the Nottingham-Lincoln bit is now the last bit of the St Pancras-Lincoln through service

There used to be quite a few of these at one point, with about one service per hour stopping at both stations when the Nottingham-Lincoln trains were twice hourly. They mostly stopped a few years back, when the current pattern of Leicester - Nottingham - Lincoln and Newark Northgate - Lincoln - Grimsby started. Once or twice I've also seen Norwich - Liverpool trains use the Skegness bay at Grantham, running through on the goods line and then setting back.

[chrisf]

Admittedly this one isn't in the UK but consider Limerick Junction in the Irish Republic. I don't know if this still happens but the afternoon train from Limerick to Waterford would run past the station and set back into the bay facing Cork. On departure for Waterford it would draw forward out of the bay, set back towards Limerick and then head for Tipperary and Waterford crossing the main line on the level north of Limerick Junction. Until additional crossovers were installed in the 1960s every train between Dublin and Cork had to run past the station and back in to the platform!

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

It wasn't a regular occurrence but Heart of Wales line trains sometimes ran via the Landore Loop and were "reversed" into Swansea station. I have also had one depart towards Neath and reverse onto the Landore Loop before heading off to Llanelli. I use the term "reverse" here advisedly since the dmu stock concerned was being driven from the trailing end due to some sort of defect on those occasions.

 

 

The only reason it was done was to turn sets due to defects (usually the headlight required for the Central Wales Line) or occasionally in the event of a points failure. But it definitely was not part of booked working or (as the original question implied) the only way of accessing the station.

[The Stationmaster]

good clip of a train reversing into scarborough station

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOcpqHB7C1k

 

Mike

 

I wouldn't exactly count a propelling move of ecs as 'a train reversing into a station' although if we were to do that we would be adding an awful lot of terminus stations throughout Britain.

 

However Scarborough was of course at one time the scene of regular reversals (but not into the station itself) as the trains to/from the Whitby route zig-zagged their way up/down the hill.

[caradoc]

If a multiple-unit type train is making such a move, the Driver will ALWAYS change ends and drive from the leading cab. Usually such a move also takes place under full signalling, and is therefore perfectly safe. Propelling of loco-hauled passenger trains was and is a much rarer move, because the Driver is then of course at the rear of the train and unable to see signals or obstructions. The Scotrail Sleeper propelling moves at Edinburgh and Carstairs are controlled by a Shunter in radio contact with the Driver.

I don't recall the Fort William sleepers being propelled into Queen St - Another loco was attached at Eastfield to haul the train to Queen St. I would be surprised if authority for a propelling move over such a long distance, and through a tunnel, would have been granted.

Cheers, Matt

[lonesome_whistle]

I wouldn't exactly count a propelling move of ecs as 'a train reversing into a station' although if we were to do that we would be adding an awful lot of terminus stations throughout Britain.

 

I was about to post something in a similar vein. Even in today's 99% MU railway there are still one or two place where empty coaches are propelled in to bay platforms. It is still a very evocative piece however, and I can't imagine any provincial terminus having one, let alone two, pilots on the go today. Also, it's been a while since I've seen a shunter leaning out of the leading vehicle controlling the movement with handsignals too. Considering he's shoving back on to stopblocks, the driver isn't hanging about. Great stuff, and a reminder of how railways used to operate before they were sanitised beyond belief!!

[The Stationmaster]

I was about to post something in a similar vein. Even in today's 99% MU railway there are still one or two place where empty coaches are propelled in to bay platforms. It is still a very evocative piece however, and I can't imagine any provincial terminus having one, let alone two, pilots on the go today. Also, it's been a while since I've seen a shunter leaning out of the leading vehicle controlling the movement with handsignals too. Considering he's shoving back on to stopblocks, the driver isn't hanging about. Great stuff, and a reminder of how railways used to operate before they were sanitised beyond belief!!

 

When it gets really interesting is the bit when the shunter can't see the Driver when he's in a position to see the stop blocks or vice versa. Today's tricky question - what does he do?

(tip - best overlook the Rule Book bit about having a clear view ahead at all times etc )

 

And quite true about 'sanitised' - even on late 1980s BR there were people who seemed hell bent to stamp out propelling, I've often wondered how they would have managed even 10 years earlier?

[flyingsignalman]

If a multiple-unit type train is making such a move, the Driver will ALWAYS change ends and drive from the leading cab. Usually such a move also takes place under full signalling, and is therefore perfectly safe. Propelling of loco-hauled passenger trains was and is a much rarer move, because the Driver is then of course at the rear of the train and unable to see signals or obstructions. The Scotrail Sleeper propelling moves at Edinburgh and Carstairs are controlled by a Shunter in radio contact with the Driver.

I don't recall the Fort William sleepers being propelled into Queen St - Another loco was attached at Eastfield to haul the train to Queen St. I would be surprised if authority for a propelling move over such a long distance, and through a tunnel, would have been granted.

Cheers, Matt

 

 

Changing ends on a multiple unit may be the rule nowadays but the LMSR (and later BR) fitted mirrors to the Wirral line EMU cabs to assist propelling moves.

By 1980 if the mirrors were damaged, they weren't replaced tho'.

[Gwiwer]

If a multiple-unit type train is making such a move, the Driver will ALWAYS change ends and drive from the leading cab

That is the Rule Book procedure. I have travelled on a small number of trains over many years where this has not been followed including those I mentioned at Swansea.

 

I don't recall the Fort William sleepers being propelled into Queen St - Another loco was attached at Eastfield to haul the train to Queen St. I would be surprised if authority for a propelling move over such a long distance, and through a tunnel, would have been granted.

 

A second loco was added at the Glasgow end, or the train engine ran round at Eastfield. But not always. I was as surprised as anyone to witness these moves; on the occasion of reversing from Cowlairs triangle it seemed even the guard was taken by surprise. Another surprise (or perhaps it was timetabled for a while) was for this train to be run north to Stirling on some occasions and run round there and head back to Glasgow before setting off for the West Highland. That may have been on occasions when the route through Springburn as not available.

[The Stationmaster]

Changing ends on a multiple unit may be the rule nowadays but the LMSR (and later BR) fitted mirrors to the Wirral line EMU cabs to assist propelling moves.

By 1980 if the mirrors were damaged, they weren't replaced tho'.

 

It used to be permissible to make a move with a dmu driven from the rear cab provided a competent person was in the leading cab - and the 'buzzer code' between cabs etc provided for precisely that situation.

 

Mind you I am a little surprised to read from Gwiwer that a unit was driven from the rear cab all the way from Landore into Swansea High St - well over a mile and definitely not acceptable. I can only remember this move happening once (I think it was a windscreen wiper defect on the unit) when I was at Swansea and on that occasion the leading cab was definitely manned by a Driver.