Hornby "H" class woes

[clarkeeboy56]

My "H" class loco, which was included in the Push-pull set has developed a bit of an issue! It's only been out of the box three or four times, but while running today it just slowed down and stopped. I removed the body and discovered that the brown "Suppressor" on top of the motor was red-hot. So much so that a small burn mark and hole had developed near the dome! Now, before I have a word with the folks down the road at Hornby, has anyone else had this or a similar problem? Not a happy bunny!

[tractionman]

Sorry to hear that.

 

My H also ran hot and I had to return two to the retailer and just gave up on the H. Bit of a shame.

 

Here's my post

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115132-Hornby-announce-the-ex-secr-sr-brs-wainwright-h-class-0-4-4-tank-as-part-of-their-2017-range/?p=3187436

 

All the best,

 

Keith

[trevor7598]

Over the years I've had three Hornby M7's with the same problem as your H.

The first one was exchanged by the shop, as was the second one. The third

loco was repaired by Hornby.

On each occasion the loco slowed to a stop, and began to get very hot ( this 

was because I could not reach the controller quickly ).

 

Never had this problem with any other Hornby loco.

[clarkeeboy56]

Over the years I've had three Hornby M7's with the same problem as your H.

The first one was exchanged by the shop, as was the second one. The third

loco was repaired by Hornby.

On each occasion the loco slowed to a stop, and began to get very hot ( this 

was because I could not reach the controller quickly ).

 

Never had this problem with any other Hornby loco.

Thanks Trevor, it's a real shame......the loco itself is gorgeous, apart from the melted bit by the dome! The Brown Suppresor thing is now black where it overheated. I bought it from Hattons so have contacted them. Problem is I doubt they have any replacements in stock. I don't blame them, as its clearly a fault with manufacture. Not too impressed with Hornby.....the mazak(?) motor mount on my T9 shattered recently ....so that needed replacing with a brass unit from Peters Spares..

[clarkeeboy56]

Sorry to hear that.

My H also ran hot and I had to return two to the retailer and just gave up on the H. Bit of a shame.

Here's my post

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115132-Hornby-announce-the-ex-secr-sr-brs-wainwright-h-class-0-4-4-tank-as-part-of-their-2017-range/?p=3187436

All the best,

Keith

Was it the same very eating issue that I had? I.e he small brown surpressor thingey?

[Butler Henderson]

Looks like a batch or two or three...of capacitors either faulty or of the wrong spec. Obvious solution for dcc users is to cut the thing off.

[tractionman]

Was it the same very eating issue that I had? I.e he small brown surpressor thingey?

 

I'm afraid I don't know as I sent the loco back, but the second one I was sent did the same. I had a sneaking suspicion they just greased up the same loco and returned it to me as it was slathered in lubricant, it also didn't work so I sent back that one too and asked for a refund!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 11, 2018 by tractionman

[clarkeeboy56]

Looks like a batch or two or three...of capacitors either faulty or of the wrong spec. Obvious solution for dcc users is to cut the thing off.

Thanks for that. I'm currently running it DC, I'd happily chop the thing off, Unfortunately though the heat from the thing has melted the plastic under and adjacent to the dome......

[Nile]

Still in stock at Hatton's

https://www.hattons.co.uk/250809/Hornby_R3512_SECR_H_Class_Wainwright_0_4_4T_31551_in_BR_black_with_late_crest_Limited_Editio/StockDetail.aspx

Send it back quick before they sell out.

[clarkeeboy56]

Still in stock at Hatton's

https://www.hattons.co.uk/250809/Hornby_R3512_SECR_H_Class_Wainwright_0_4_4T_31551_in_BR_black_with_late_crest_Limited_Editio/StockDetail.aspx

Send it back quick before they sell out.

Thanks, yes I see  just the 4 left at the moment.....

[Suzie]

Does anyone have a photo of one before it catches fire?

 

Sounds like the failure mode of a Tantalum capacitor, but these should not be used as motor suppressors.

[Right Away]

My "H", hardwired with Lenz Silver Mini decoder (minus capacitor) runs beautifully.

 

I did however have an initial problem with it stalling for no apparent reason. Pointed in the right direction by RMWeb members, it transpired that the motor housing was a smidge too tight a fit. To eradicate this, a small paper shim was inserted "head gasket fashion" between the motor and bottom of the housing.

I'm wondering if the heat build up in your model is being caused by a similar issue but in your case the motor actual turns but with a lot of resistance.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Right Away

[Nile]

Does this help?

[Suzie]

Looks like it is one where you have to be careful the pins do not go too far through the socket and short on the chassis.

 

Why are manufacturers still fitting NEM652 sockets! A PluX-16 socket would have been fine in there.

[Butler Henderson]

Why are manufacturers still fitting NEM652 sockets! A PluX-16 socket would have been fine in there.

You are talking of Hornby who will only sell locos with sockets that fit a decoder they make - after the appalling 4 pin socket they have inflicted on the Sentinel and Pecketts I shudder to think what their interpretation of a Plux-16 socket would be and the decoder to fit it.

[Fireline]

You are talking of Hornby who will only sell locos with sockets that fit a decoder they make - after the appalling 4 pin socket they have inflicted on the Sentinel and Pecketts I shudder to think what their interpretation of a Plux-16 socket would be and the decoder to fit it.

 

Are you advocating Hornby making a loco with a socket that they don't make the decoder for? That sounds to me like a truly daft piece of business!

[Oldddudders]

By and large, 4mm RTR UK steam loco models have no need of functions, so I regard 8 pins as quite sufficient, and resent having to buy decoders with a lot of redundant capacity built in. I’m not sure what benefit a Plux or Next configuration would confer.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Why are manufacturers still fitting NEM652 sockets! A PluX-16 socket would have been fine in there.

 Because NEM652 is adequate for the purpose, and as an established standard their own and a wide choice of competing decoders are available to fit it.

 

This obviously needs repetition. Any attempt to bring in a 'new standard' item has to present such obvious advantage that it replaces the previous standard item(s) very swiftly. If it doesn't, it isn't a 'new standard' at all, but actually redundant as all it has done is decreased standardisation, and should therefore be withdrawn as a failure.

[Butler Henderson]

Too many NEM652 sockets are however used where the socket as a result seriously limits the choice of decoder hence the often need to use a small direct fit decoder in many locos. This, the M7, Radials, Pecketts and Sentinel would have all benefited from a 6 pin socket but Hornby UK refuse to fit them despite them being used on the International range.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Butler Henderson

[Budgie]

Too many NEM652 sockets are however used where the socket as a result seriously limits the choice of decoder hence the often need to use a small direct fit decoder in many locos. This, the M7, Radials, Pecketts and Sentinel would have all benefited from a 6 pin socket but Hornby UK refuse to fit them despite them being used on the International range.

Why don't they attach their X9659 4-pin decoder to a 6-pin plug, and use a 6-pin socket in the models?

[Suzie]

There are several well documented issues with NEM652 installations:-

 

1. The socket is too big for many locos not leaving enough space for a NEM652 fitted decoder.

 

2. The decoder being on wires flopps around and shorts out in many cases.

 

3. There is rarely adequate insulation below the socket to prevent the pins shorting.

 

4. The PCBs have pins adjacent which cause decoder failure if inadvertently linked (which they often are).

 

5. Has no provision for speaker/stay alive/etc.

 

6. There is no defined space to fit the decoder.

 

7. Hornby might well make decoders with NEM652 plugs on, but no one in their right mind would buy one. They rebadge decoders from other manufacturers (ESU for example) who offer a full range and could provide a suitable decoder anyway regardless of the direct plug socket used.

 

PluX is sufficiently adopted as a standard now by manufacturers (just not in the UK) that top quality decoders are available from £19 (or less) retail in the UK which are easy to fit in the defined space without having to worry about coiling up all the spare wire and with no danger of shorting! Plux12 decoders are small enough to fit anywhere as long as a socket is provided. Some NEM652 decoders like the Zimo MX600R are already PluX decoders that just have wires soldered on with an 8-pin plug. Sticking with NEM652 (and the other obsolete sockets such as NEM651 6-pin and to a lesser extent MTC-21) is just adding manufacturing cost (both to locos and decoders) and delaying the inevitable adoption of better products where a single decoder could be offered that would fit all locos in a range from N-gauge up to 0-gauge.

 

Why would you not want to select the decoder with the features you want, open the loco and plug it in knowing that it will fit and not burn out? Who wants all the hassle of choosing a decoder that is the right shape and size and then fight a battle to fit it and all its wiring in an inadequate space liberally wrapped in tape.

 

Which manufacturer makes a single NEM652 decoder that will fit in any loco that has an NEM652 socket? None! TCS make a range of non-sound decoders where you will probably find at least one in the range that will fit your loco, but that is probably the extent of it. Which manufacturer makes PluX decoders any one of which (including sound where appropriate) will fit any PluX fitted loco (where the socket has at least as many pins than the decoder)? All of them.

 

Life can be a lot easier.

[Butler Henderson]

Suzies posting leads onto an interesting quiz - which loco does the TCS DP2X-UK not fit?

DCC Concepts puzzle me - they claim to have the smallest direct fit NEM652 decoder which is correct in terms of overall volume but at 5mm high is simply too tall for many poorly sited NEM652 sockets while the other, the 360 one, simply does not fit a lot of locos due to its width and those it does fit will usually take a normal decoder

 

Why don't they attach their X9659 4-pin decoder to a 6-pin plug, and use a 6-pin socket in the models?

That is actually their normal cheap decoder fitted to their proprietary non NEM standard 4 pin plug, the last thing I suspect most would want is that fitted to 6 pin plug and it defeats the general concept of 6 pin decoders being direct fit so minimising the volume needed in a loco for socket and decoder, admittedly in some too minimised so restricting the choice of 6 pin decoders.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Butler Henderson

[clarkeeboy56]

Thank you all for your replies......I have sent the set back to Hattons and have asked for a direct replacement set. As stated earlier the loco is not DCC fitted...not yet anyway, so is running on my analogue layout. I didn't take any photo's, but the capacitor was blackened by it burning out. I dread to think what might have happened! Of course I am just a little bit concerned that the replacement loco will have a similar issue. My original H class was only out of the box three or four times and ran fine - until last Saturday. I just wonder what I should do when I get the new loco? Is it worth getting the capacitor checked out? Could it be removed? For it to burn out after such a short time is shoddy, and potentially dangerous.

[clarkeeboy56]

My "H", hardwired with Lenz Silver Mini decoder (minus capacitor) runs beautifully.

I did however have an initial problem with it stalling for no apparent reason. Pointed in the right direction by RMWeb members, it transpired that the motor housing was a smidge too tight a fit. To eradicate this, a small paper shim was inserted "head gasket fashion" between the motor and bottom of the housing.

I'm wondering if the heat build up in your model is being caused by a similar issue but in your case the motor actual turns but with a lot of resistance.

The loco ran beautifully initially. My original thought was that the capacitor was faulty and as a result over heated, but thinking about what's been said here, I guess the motor may have stopped turning causing the heat to build up in the capacitor?

[clarkeeboy56]

Does anyone have a photo of one before it catches fire?

 

Sounds like the failure mode of a Tantalum capacitor, but these should not be used as motor suppressors.

Thanks Suzie. Is it worth my while removing the capacitor, and either leaving it off, or replacing it with something else?