Imaginary Locomotives

[cheesysmith]

The original blue pulman had a problem, in that with it having a passinger saloon in the power car forced the engine to be mounted at the front, instead of in the middle. Because of the uneven axle load resulting, it only had the trailing bogie motored, and the first bogie of the first adjacent coach. If you got rid of the passenger saloon in the power car, and laid it out as just a power car, you would have  shorter power car, more even axle load, allowing all the axles to be powered, and giving better grip. This would also have allowed a bigger engine, like a MD870 or a V16 ventura, you could have had a 1800bhp power car on each end of a rake of coaches. Fitted with EP brakes, this blue pulman would have shown even a deltic up. More power at rail than a deltic, with lower axle loads. In later life, for the higher speed ECML timetable, the deltic ran with short dedicated rakes of coaches. This version of the blue pulman would have kept these times, but you could have had even 9 or 10 coaches between instead of the deltic+8 sets used (especially if the sets had the aux power supplied from a separate engine). Or even build them as separate 5 coach plus power car sets, with a 309 cab on the other end. A Bradford and a Harrogate pulman, each of 5 coaches, jointing/splitting at leeds? Sheffield and hull sets? Full set used on the others. This would have you to provided the service and just have 1 half set as a spare.

 

Fitted with commonwealth cast bogies (like the 309)for better ride. I would see no reason for these to be withdrawn early, unlike the real ones. Especially if they had been fitted with the paxman engine, which in V12 form was uprated to become the Valencia as fitted to the HSTs, so BR would have had spares for the engine in stock.

 

I wonder how much the old blue pulmann models are going for on evilbay? Cut up one of those, with a 309 cab at the other end. 

[Hroth]

I've always liked the "Blue Pullman" shape.  Its a pity that BR didn't seize the nettle of opportunity when a/c stock became available in the mid-60s to ditch the "Pullman" branding, rebuild the power cars with upgraded engine/generator sets and lose the power car seating (too noisy!), retaining a slightly expanded luggage/staff compartment instead.  Not imposing a Pullman supplement would make the refurbished units more popular and encourage the building of further sets, thus saving the class during the rationalisation era.

 

They then might have had a excellent "modern" looking express DMU class, capable of maintaining a 100mph service on non-electrified routes, yet still leaving evolutionary space for the attempt at the ATP, with fallback space for HST.

[Hroth]

...

I wonder how much the old blue pulmann models are going for on evilbay? Cut up one of those, with a 309 cab at the other end. 

I was wondering too - I'd keep the Triang Blue Pullman cab and roof, and try to mate it to a Mk2 BSO (Lima must have done one?) losing the passenger end...

[FPH 603]

The original blue pulman had a problem, in that with it having a passinger saloon in the power car forced the engine to be mounted at the front, instead of in the middle. Because of the uneven axle load resulting, it only had the trailing bogie motored, and the first bogie of the first adjacent coach. If you got rid of the passenger saloon in the power car, and laid it out as just a power car, you would have shorter power car, more even axle load, allowing all the axles to be powered, and giving better grip. This would also have allowed a bigger engine, like a MD870 or a V16 ventura, you could have had a 1800bhp power car on each end of a rake of coaches. Fitted with EP brakes, this blue pulman would have shown even a deltic up. More power at rail than a deltic, with lower axle loads. In later life, for the higher speed ECML timetable, the deltic ran with short dedicated rakes of coaches. This version of the blue pulman would have kept these times, but you could have had even 9 or 10 coaches between instead of the deltic+8 sets used (especially if the sets had the aux power supplied from a separate engine). Or even build them as separate 5 coach plus power car sets, with a 309 cab on the other end. A Bradford and a Harrogate pulman, each of 5 coaches, jointing/splitting at leeds? Sheffield and hull sets? Full set used on the others. This would have you to provided the service and just have 1 half set as a spare.

 

Fitted with commonwealth cast bogies (like the 309)for better ride. I would see no reason for these to be withdrawn early, unlike the real ones. Especially if they had been fitted with the paxman engine, which in V12 form was uprated to become the Valencia as fitted to the HSTs, so BR would have had spares for the engine in stock.

 

I wonder how much the old blue pulmann models are going for on evilbay? Cut up one of those, with a 309 cab at the other end.

Blue Pullman/Clacton? I like!

 

30 Things to do With Blue Pullman Power Cars:

 

1. Get two surplus Blue Pullman Power Cars and use them as a yard shunter!

 

2. Convert them into surrogate DVT's.

 

3. Make them into Pullman Observation Cars.

 

4. Strip them to make them into Parcel Vans/Mess Rooms.

 

5. Rebuild them as pure electric trains.

 

6. Think of something else for them to do.

 

7. Dump some into a shed/museum.

 

8. Convert some into Departmental Stock. (Like those Network Rail Test Trains!)

 

9. Make a cinema car out of one. And watch Blue Pullman movies and documentaries all day long!

 

10. Create generator vans out of them. (Believe that this was done in a few places shortly before their scrapping).

 

11. Or use cheesysmith's method of a putting Clacton end onto the back!

 

12. Drag them using a random locomotive when running expresses!

 

13. Make them hotels! This would have been good publicity. And good for the homeless.

 

14. Be happy as they are (or be dumb) and do NOTHING!

 

15. Scrap ALL of them. (This is what BR went with!)

 

16. Going off 15, a method of scrapping could be deliberately crashing them into each other then cutting them up on the spot.

 

17. Sell them privately or give them to other railways. (I think the Irish wanted to do something with these but cancelled their plans...)

 

18. Make a set into BR's new mobile Headquarters.

 

19. Repaint them into another stupid colour scheme and call them the Green Pullmans. (Or maybe should they be red?)

 

20. Leave them out somewhere and hope someone will do something about it. (Like 14 but more specific!)

 

21. Strip all undergear and make a station shelter or parcel office from one. (It'll look pretty!)

 

22. Make a restaurant called 'The Blue Pullman' out of one or more. Maybe BR might be able to improve the staffing when the train doesn't even move!

 

23. Rename them to the 'Failed Pullman' instead of Blue Pullman.

 

24. Dump them into the sea like the Americans do with their subway cars!

 

25. Roll them down a hillside and say 'You failed me!'

 

26. Make them into old looking HST's.

 

27. Drive them into mud and call them Dirty Pullmans.

 

28. Rebuild them into another type of Blue train. Maybe a Sprinter or even a Pacer?

 

29. Cover them in scrap and pretend they don't exist.

 

30. Start over.

 

 

Got any ideas? Well submit them to www.whattodowithbluepullmanpowercars.co.uk! (Just quote the post then submit ideas!) Note this post was not made to intentionally harm or insult any Blue Pullman lovers out there.

Edited November 8, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[Joseph_Pestell]

Interesting, detailed coverage of the Blue Pullman here http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/blue-pullman/summary

 

I never saw these trains and didn’t realise they had passenger accommodation in the power cars, which (if the subsequent success of the HST is any guide) was a fundamental mistake.

 

 

The Hastings DEMU, ah yes.. not exactly a byword for smooth, quiet running.... which was the point under discussion...

 

I can’t identify the TEE Set, google being what it is, you’ll have to help me on that one.

 

I didn't suggest that it was a good idea. Just that it existed already in many variants - so no need for imagination.

 

The French had quite a few examples, such as the RTG, which were pretty good, even being exported to other countries.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[rockershovel]

I was surprised to see, in the article I posted above, that the Blue Pullman train crew included a technician to deal with various issues which appear to have been derived from various aspects of the somewhat incompatible infrastructure it was required to operate within.

 

BR Engineering felt that 4500hp was required for running at 125mph, along with the various aspects of load distribution and traction dealt with in the earlier post.

 

A double-Deltic dedicated set with a/c equipped Mk2 carriages would have been something!

 

Interesting also, to see that BEA were offering significant competition as early as 1957

[BernardTPM]

Here's an idea that might fit the "tantalising possibility of being something that was overlooked" mentioned on the previous page. I wonder if there is a niche EE design between the LMS Twins and the 40? Something mechanically like the D16/2 using the uprated 1750hp 16SVT MkI engine but ~127t allowing a Co-Co rather than 1Co-Co1 and styled more like a slightly shorter 40.

In a way the three Bullied/EE diesel-electrics would be that, excepting they introduced the 1Co-Co1 bogies. The last of them essentially had the same engine as the 40s. Why were they longer and heavier than the LMS twins? You'd need to look at the internals in detail to work that out. Given the weight difference isn't that much, perhaps the C.E.s just wanted a lower axleload.

[cheesysmith]

The LMS twins were a bit heavy, so instead of trying to loose weight, the designers had a answer in the bogies made for 10201 etc in the 1Co type. The limit at the time was not so much the axle load but the axle load vs wheel diameter. The civil engineers were worried about wheel burns, having misread information comming from america at the time. The main reason for the rail dammage was from braking, not power, so the wheel diameter to axleload was wrong. Also, you could have built the class 40s/EE type 4 with the same bogie from the LMS twins, with the better riding at speed and primary and secondary suspension (the 1C0 bogie only had primary, just like a steam loco). The basic suspension design of these bogies probably caused more damage to the tracks than the 3 to 4 ton heavier axle loading would have from using the twins bogie design.

 

The class 40 was built with the EE standard weight carrying underframe, and weight the same as the peaks, which used a truss style body, but both weighed about the same, even though the peaks used a engine that was aprox 10 tons heavier. Just using the same body, with a intercooled version of the CSVT engine, with the same bogies from the twins, you could have had a 120-122 ton Co Co of 2400BHP.

Edited November 8, 2017 by cheesysmith

[BernardTPM]

By the end of the '50s BR was already looking beyond the Mk.1 design. The Mk.1 Pullman Parour Firsts weighed 38 tons apiece against the 33 tons for the equivalent Parlour First coach in the Blue Pullman (and the latter also had full air-conditioning). Swindon were testing early versions of what was to become the B4 bogie too. Effectively the two came together in the last Swindon WR Inter-City units (Class 123) of 1963, though they didn't have the eye-appeal of the Blue Pullmans. On the other had, combine the optimised Blue Pullman power car only idea with trailers made up of Cl.123 structurally derived trailers* and you'd be edging towards a 100mph HSTish kind of train. Or maybe use the Met-Camm. BP shell with non-aircon and normal 1st and 2nd accomodation (perhaps with the 5' wide windows of the 1960 Pullmans in the 1st class) but on B4s instead of the troublesome Swiss bogies. The first production B4 bogies were used in 1961. Might have a go at mocking this up.

 

* of course, the prototype Mk.2 W13252 was built using the same jigs.

 

Well, here's the Inter-City 100 (for want of a better name) circa 1962 BR/Metro-Cammell:

 

I've left livery effectively undecided.

Edited November 8, 2017 by BernardTPM

[cheesysmith]

Remember, the BP came with sprung  bogie monted motors, not axle hung, so reducing the unsprung weight. If you wanted even lower unsprung weight, and better ridng, you could have nicked the bogies off the hymek, as these were commonwealth design, with gearboxes mouned within and a drive shaft comming off to the voith box mounted in the centre of the loco. Just replace the voith box with a electric motor. I still think that BR missed a trick and should have refitted the BP with commonwealths.

[BernardTPM]

From what i recall reading, the 'power' type bogies actually rode rather better than the trailing type, but as they would be under purely power cars that probably wouldn't matter too much anyway. B4s would offer considerable weight saving over Commonweaths and equal, if not better ride, under the coaches and available by 1961, even if not widely applied at that time.

Edited November 8, 2017 by BernardTPM

[PhilJ W]

I once took a journey on the BP on a school trip. What had happened was our booked train had failed and the only available service was the BP. Needless to say we oiks (about 30 of us IIRC aged 11 to 13) made the most of it with the free coffee and tea. Problem was that most of the tea and coffee ended up in the saucers due to the rough ride. The school trip was to Stratford-on Avon, I can't now, about 55 years later recall which Pullman service it was or where we travelled from except that it took us past S-o-A before we had to change over to a DMU to take us to our destination.

[rockershovel]

Re various comments above, the article I posted makes specific reference to the BP bogies being copied from a European design but fitted with revised wheel sizes, which did not work well

[BernardTPM]

I also wonder if the fully floating gangway design might have affected the ride. Normally the gangways provide a degree of damping between vehicle ends, but the floating design very much reduced that effect. There were problems early on with the Mk.IV coaches too that were partially allieviated by actually fitting separate inter-vehicle dampers (Metro-Cammell, Swiss design bogies and floating gangways again oddly enough). If more had been understood about rail vehicle dynamics the Blue Pullmans could probably have been much improved.

Edited November 8, 2017 by BernardTPM

[Hroth]

By the end of the '50s BR was already looking beyond the Mk.1 design. The Mk.1 Pullman Parour Firsts weighed 38 tons apiece against the 33 tons for the equivalent Parlour First coach in the Blue Pullman (and the latter also had full air-conditioning). Swindon were testing early versions of what was to become the B4 bogie too. Effectively the two came together in the last Swindon WR Inter-City units (Class 123) of 1963, though they didn't have the eye-appeal of the Blue Pullmans. On the other had, combine the optimised Blue Pullman power car only idea with trailers made up of Cl.123 structurally derived trailers* and you'd be edging towards a 100mph HSTish kind of train. Or maybe use the Met-Camm. BP shell with non-aircon and normal 1st and 2nd accomodation (perhaps with the 5' wide windows of the 1960 Pullmans in the 1st class) but on B4s instead of the troublesome Swiss bogies. The first production B4 bogies were used in 1961. Might have a go at mocking this up.

 

* of course, the prototype Mk.2 W13252 was built using the same jigs.

 

Well, here's the Inter-City 100 (for want of a better name) circa 1962 BR/Metro-Cammell:

IC100.jpg

 

I've left livery effectively undecided.

Thats the sort of upgrade that I had in mind and might have worked....

 

So if we want to keep the progression to the HST naming convention perhaps it could be one of the following

 

• Blue Fast Train (a nod to its predecessor)
• Fairly Fast Train
• Pretty Fast Train

 

or perhaps

 

• Fast Express 100, shortened to
• FXP 100

[scots region]

Thats the sort of upgrade that I had in mind and might have worked....

 

So if we want to keep the progression to the HST naming convention perhaps it could be one of the following

 

 

• Blue Fast Train (a nod to its predecessor)
• Fairly Fast Train
• Pretty Fast Train

 

or perhaps

 

• Fast Express 100, shortened to
• FXP 100

Fast Express 100 does have a very nice ring to it. I’m tempted by all of this, cost aside, it would be very interesting to see a Class 5 or a Britannia ‘Thunderbirding’. Would they need a barrier wagon?

[The Johnster]

The use of steam locos, or non air braked diesel or electric locos, for thunderbirding would be dependent on the brakes on the fast train, whatever you call it.  If they are not compatible assistance can only be provided at low speed, 15mph, under caution, to clear the line,   If the assisting loco can operate the train brakes, then you can go as fast as you like/can up to line speed, as the instance of the 1963 down Bristolian which failed at Didcot and was provided with a 28xx, seen running through Swindon at around 70 and pushed through Keynsham at over 90 with the motion an invisible blur after the Warship fired up again.  

 

A barrier or translator wagon is needed if the couplings or drawgear are incompatible; it cannot affect the braking!

Edited November 8, 2017 by The Johnster

[rockershovel]

FXP doesn’t sound like a 60s name. InterCity 100 sounds good, the magic ‘ton’ gets a mention

[BernardTPM]

I did consider Inter-City Ton-up, but more in a tongue in cheek way, though it was a contemporary phrase.

Livery - the 'Coach of the Future' exhibition at the Design Centre in 1963 had a coach mock-up in Golden Ocre with light grey round the windows. Can't yet find any suggestion of a name for express rail services though.

[Budgie]

Nice. Weren't tempted to go 4-8-2 for the proper Swiss electric wheel base oddness?

 

 

As requested.

 

E71-3.jpg

 

Cheers

David

That's a 2-8-4, not a 4-8-2.

[FPH 603]

By the end of the '50s BR was already looking beyond the Mk.1 design. The Mk.1 Pullman Parour Firsts weighed 38 tons apiece against the 33 tons for the equivalent Parlour First coach in the Blue Pullman (and the latter also had full air-conditioning). Swindon were testing early versions of what was to become the B4 bogie too. Effectively the two came together in the last Swindon WR Inter-City units (Class 123) of 1963, though they didn't have the eye-appeal of the Blue Pullmans. On the other had, combine the optimised Blue Pullman power car only idea with trailers made up of Cl.123 structurally derived trailers* and you'd be edging towards a 100mph HSTish kind of train. Or maybe use the Met-Camm. BP shell with non-aircon and normal 1st and 2nd accomodation (perhaps with the 5' wide windows of the 1960 Pullmans in the 1st class) but on B4s instead of the troublesome Swiss bogies. The first production B4 bogies were used in 1961. Might have a go at mocking this up.

 

* of course, the prototype Mk.2 W13252 was built using the same jigs.

 

Well, here's the Inter-City 100 (for want of a better name) circa 1962 BR/Metro-Cammell:

IC100.jpg

 

I've left livery effectively undecided.

Thats the sort of upgrade that I had in mind and might have worked....

 

So if we want to keep the progression to the HST naming convention perhaps it could be one of the following

 

 

• Blue Fast Train (a nod to its predecessor)
• Fairly Fast Train
• Pretty Fast Train

or perhaps

 

• Fast Express 100, shortened to
• FXP 100

Yes, I think the Intercity-100 makes sense for this particular train. What about making it Maroon like the Clacton class 309's when introduced?

 

Here's what I think:

 

Blue Fast Train (a nod to it's predecessor) - I can agree with that, BFT sounds to me like a burger though. (Sounds like BLT)

 

Pretty Fast Train - Informal and not good for publicity

 

Fairly Fast Train - Whilst FFT sounds OK, this sounds more like a carriage code. And again, bad for publicity.

 

Fast Express 100 - I was thinking, depending on where it works, it could be called for example 'The Yorkshire Flyer 100' or something like that.

Edited November 8, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[FPH 603]

FXP doesn’t sound like a 60s name. InterCity 100 sounds good, the magic ‘ton’ gets a mention

The Australians made the XPT - an adapted version of the HST made for the Australian Climate. The name sounds very 1980's though, which suits it very well. It's funny that I've never travelled on an XPT, but yet I've been on a Virgin Trains HST (around a month ago!). I do have a model of both trains, although it's a Lima HST with XPT colours!

[Hroth]

FXP doesn’t sound like a 60s name. InterCity 100 sounds good, the magic ‘ton’ gets a mention

But it does give the flavour of comparing a Patriot (5xp) to a Princess Coronation, an equivalent sort of capability hike!

 

Of course, it'd actually be an IC100.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Hroth

[The Johnster]

Yes, I think the Intercity-100 makes sense for this particular train. What about making it Maroon like the Clacton class 309's when introduced?

 

Here's what I think:

 

Blue Fast Train (a nod to it's predecessor) - I can agree with that, BFT sounds to me like a burger though. (Sounds like BLT)

 

Pretty Fast Train - Informal and not good for publicity

 

Fairly Fast Train - Whilst FFT sounds OK, this sounds more like a carriage code. And again, bad for publicity.

 

Fast Express 100 - I was thinking, depending on where it works, it could be called for example 'The Yorkshire Flyer 100' or something like that.

 

 

BFT would not have carried any burger, or bacon, connotations back in the 60s.

[DavidB-AU]

I don't think it would have been an acronym. That just wasn't the thing at the time.

 

Cheers

David