Cardiff-Bristol- Portsmouth

[ianwales]

Hi all

 

I've found the signalling diagram for Portsmouth Hbr and it doesn't look as if there was an engine release crossover on any of the platform roads, if not how were the loco hauled bristol trains dealt with at the Hbr, or is there a crossover missing?

 

Ian

[Gwiwer]

I don't believe there ever was a crossover at the Harbour, Ian, nor indeed any pointwork at all on the elevated part of the station. All the points are and were on the solid embankment at the landward end except where platform 5 road had a spur to the siding used to refuel the IoW ferries. That point was part-way down the platform and just over the water IIRC.

 

All incoming loco-hauled trains (in both steam and diesel days) had stock removed ecs to Fratton by a shunter or other spare loco or were taken straight out by another loco on their next working which released the incoming loco. If not required for other duties a shunter would haul the stock up and wait at the buffers to be released after the outgoing service but if Fratton was busy (as happened on summer Saturdays) and the loco was required again quickly (or if there was nothing spare and only the train engine could be used to shunt the stock) I believe it was permitted to propel the ecs from Fratton with a responsible person in the leading end doorway acting as lookout due to the low line speed.

 

In steam days the loco would run tender-first down to the turntable just outside the "Town" station, turn, and either run back up for its next working or head off to Fratton shed for coaling / water.

 

In the days of the hourly and 2-hourly loco-hauled Bristol / Cardiff trains the incoming train was followed to the Harbour by a light engine which led the next service and the incoming loco returned to Fratton light to take over a later working. I have also seen a shunter pull the coaches out of the Harbour platform onto the up line, propel them into the adjacent platform and return to Fratton at which point the incoming loco shunted onto the head of the train. Having five platforms instead of the current four and fewer trains than run now helped such moves to be made without too much disruption.

 

Anything these days which isn't topped and tailed will need a release loco standing by at Fratton to perform the shunt.

[gc4946]

By the mid 1970s, a light engine followed from Fratton sidings minutes behind an incoming Bristol service, which then coupled up at Portsmouth Harbour. Once the Bristol service left, the incoming engine then ran light a few minutes later behind that service to Fratton sidings and the whole thing repeated throughout the day.

 

In the case of excursions and longer-distance services where an immediate departure wasn't needed, an 08 or 09 shunter followed, coupled up, and the whole formation travelled to Fratton sidings where it laid over until its return journey, the shunter and main loco being marshalled correctly (shunter+train+loco) for the trip to the Harbour.

I've seen a photo taken on 30 June 1972 of a Hymek D7005 in green SYP leading and a shunter on the rear on fuel tanks for Sealink at Portsmouth Harbour in J.A.M. Vaughan's book "Diesels on the Southern" and the loco could have been attached there when required.

 

 

 

 

[mark alden]

The Hymeks were taken off the CDF - P HBR trains from the timetable change of May 1973. The P HBR - SALS services were extended to BTL taking 3H units through to BTL. They were not popular because there was no access to the loos from all carriages so the trains reverted to loco hauled with class 31's.

[Gwiwer]

They were not popular because they also became very overcrowded. The Hampshire locals were always quite busy over the Southampton - Portsmouth section. Although the through Portsmouth - Bristol service had been cut to one train a day (from three) the introduction of an alternate-hours through train saw a huge upturn in traffic. Standing was commonplace; being unable to board the train at somewhere like Fareham became an occasional problem. Rolling stock requirements meant that 6-car trains could not be run except as far as Salisbury in a few cases.

 

Ironically this turned out to be a taste of things to come. With an hourly service now running and 3-car 158s in use for the most part the service is still frequently full and standing despite being operated at a best-ever frequency.

[andy stroud]

With an hourly service now running and 3-car 158s in use for the most part the service is still frequently full and standing despite being operated at a best-ever frequency.

 

It was an hourly service with loco hauled stock (at least five coaches) for years before sprinters took over in 1988. I can quite clearly remember hourly trains when I photographed them and traveled on them in the early 1980's.

Also, a quick look at a copy of the 1983 timetable shows through Portsmouth departures from Bristol leaving at 10.14, 11.14, 12.14, 13.14, etc, That, to me is pretty much hourly, so I'm not sure that todays service is the best-ever, especially in terms of on-board space, although I guess the timings will be quicker.

Edited April 13, 2012 by andy stroud

[Gwiwer]

Over the years from the late 60s it went from three through trains down to one, then to alternate hours (with a mix of 3H and WR dmmu sets) before reverting to loco-haulage. The plan was for class 156 units to take over and run hourly as 2-car sets but due to their late delivery the loco-and-coaches formations were provided instead. Once more modern units were available in sufficient numbers they took over the service.

 

In the interim we enjoyed an Indian Summer of loco haulage and the inter-working of loco rosters meant Cromptons went as far afield as Manchester on the N&W and occasionally farther into south, west and even north Wales than just Canton depot.

 

There is now an hourly service and in some years a few extra trips have been included either as stock moves or to relieve the busiest trains. There are also three trains direct to Brighton (though stock shortages mean these are worked by 150 units far too often) which never used to be the case; the best in loco-hauled days was once daily and in some years a single weekly summer-only service ran along the coast.

[andy stroud]

Over the years from the late 60s it went from three through trains down to one, then to alternate hours (with a mix of 3H and WR dmmu sets) before reverting to loco-haulage. The plan was for class 156 units to take over and run hourly as 2-car sets but due to their late delivery the loco-and-coaches formations were provided instead. Once more modern units were available in sufficient numbers they took over the service.

 

In the interim we enjoyed an Indian Summer of loco haulage and the inter-working of loco rosters meant Cromptons went as far afield as Manchester on the N&W and occasionally farther into south, west and even north Wales than just Canton depot.

 

 

 

The loco hauled service was basically hourly through the 1980's, as outlined in my previous post. Then in May 1988, class 155 sprinters took over, as planned. I'm not aware of any Indian Summer of loco hauled operation. The 155's lasted until the end of the year when the door problems caused the 156's to be drafted in, followed by 158's, but no return to loco hauled. However, the N&W did still have some workings using class 47's and 37/4's for quite a while due to shortage of units.

[MJI]

Late 70s seen 31/4s and used them.

 

Was on one train and due to rail works had to go by road coach.

 

I was going there for a few months and part of my luggage was a motorcycle.

 

I beat the coach to the next station! That was a 33 on the front.

[br2975]

Unfortunately, my settings currently prevent me replying and (i) quoting a previous post, or (ii) cutting and pasting.

.

Gwiwer states on the previous page that there was a "Summer Saturday Brighton (not Portsmouth) - Cardiff which was an out and back Cl.33 and what I believe was an Oxted set......"

.

I now have a 1971-1972 WTT which suggests otherwise for summer Saturdays in 1971.

 

The two rostered Cl.33/0 workings were

.

1V24 10:20hrs Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff (General) arr 14:05; operates 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971, returns as

1O64 14:55hrs Cardiff (General) - Portsmouth Harbour

.

The previous summer (1970) this train had been formed:- BSK, CK, SO, SO, BSK, SO, SO

 

1V25 11:20hrs Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff (General) arr 14:58; operates 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971, returns as

1O65 16:35hrs Cardiff (General) - Portsmouth Harbour.

.

The previous summer (1970) this working had been formed:- BSK, SO, SO, RMB, CK, BSK

 

However, it may be that these services started out as internal Brighton - Portsmouth Harbour workings where the new Cl.33 came light from Fratton and took out an incoming Brighton train. A BR(WR) WTT would not normally contain such information.

 

The Hymek workings were as follows

 

UP

 

1O57 08:50hrs Cardiff (General) - Portsmouth Harbour; operates until 25/09/1971

 

1O59 09:15hrs Cardiff (General) - Portsmouth Harbour; NOT 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971 when this train worked 1O59 10:00hrs Cardiff - Weymouth, returning as1V31 16:25hrs Weymouth - Cardiff (General) arr 20:02hrs.

 

1O61 11:00hrs Cardiff (General) - Portsmouth Harbour; NOT 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971

 

1O63 12:35hrs Cardiff General) - Portsmouth Harbour; operates 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971

 

DOWN

 

1V27 13:20hrs Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff (General) arr 17:01hrs; operates 08/05/1971 - 05/06/1971and 11/09/1971 - 25/09/1971

 

1V27 13:20hrs Portsmouth Harbour - Swansea arr 18:20hrs; operates 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971 

 

1V32 17:25hrs Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff (General) arr 21:36hrs; NOT 12/06/1971 - 04/09/1971.

 

Brian R

Edited November 19, 2014 by br2975

[jonny777]

Here is an interloper on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services.

 

37430 has brought the train into Temple Meads, but I have no record of the 33 which has backed on at the other end.

 

 

 

 

4th February 1988

 

 

 

Edited: to add that the train formation is something that really annoyed me at the time. Yes there are 4 carriages but three of those are brake vehicles, and two are brake firsts (probably downgraded if yer lucky).

Edited November 19, 2014 by jonny777

[br2975]

Jonny777

 

37/4s were rostered to work the Swansea/Cardiff - Bristol leg of Portsmouth Harbour trains for a while during the mid to late 80s.

.

Brian R

[Gwiwer]

I hope some of that first class accommodation was declassified for steerage passengers.  That's got to be a scratch set with at least three brakes in a rake of four coaches!  And two of them are first class.

 

Re. the 1970/1 WTT I don't doubt that was the case for the year in question.  The provision of a direct Brighton - Bristol / Cardiff service has chopped and changed so often over the years.  My recollection is that the Brighton - Exeter departed that Sussex town at 08.50 followed by a high-season dated Cardiff train an hour later in the same pathway on the hourly repeating timetable as far as Salisbury.  As to which year(s) that operated I would have said around 1972-3 but am always happy to be corrected.

 

As this topic has reawakened it might be appropriate to ask another question also.

 

In the current timetable FGW runs two (three on Sundays) direct trains to Brighton which run from / return to Great Malvern substantially over the route of the Pompey - Cardiff service.  These are normally a 158, often replaced by a 150,  but one trip has been rostered for a hired-in SWT class 159.  What is the rest of its diagram, please?  I can't see a logical way of it picking up the service unless units are changed at Bristol or Salisbury.  The diagram appears to start and finish at Bristol; 159s are based at Salisbury.

 

I made several trips on that particular service through the summer including Brighton - Worthing (anything's better than a 313/2) and Westbury - Brighton.

[acg5324]

The service from Brighton restarted in 1979 as a SO out and back working it took a few years to become daily this was when the standard 5 car sets were used rather than the SR Oxted 8 sets.

 

This is the first timetable

Also pocket version

http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v32/p436886910-4.jpg

 

 

1980 -1981 its the same

 

1981-1982 now SO and SunO

On saturdays retimed to 0820 from BTN and extended to CDF.arrive 1236. Return is 1615 from Cardiff arriving BTN 2036

On sundays 1620 from BTN to BTM arrive 1900. Return was 1705 CDF to BTN arrive 2136.

 

1982-1983 as per 1981-82

 

1983-84 saturday remains as per the previous two years the Sunday service from Brighton moved to 1020.

 

1984-85 dont have access to at present

 

1985-86 Service becomes daily. Once a day M-S and twice a day from BTN on Sundays but only one return train.

Edited November 20, 2014 by acg5324

[Bruce Depot]

Can remember back in the 1980´s when we used to visit family near Portsmouth my Uncle taking me to Fratton station to stand on the footbridge

for a few hours, there was a cafe at the end he used to get two teas from as well.

Anyway there was normally a cl33 parked up which used to follow the Bristol train in and the inward loco would then appear latter

to park up until the next Bristol train appeared.

Fridays sometimes brought a Cl47 in from Manchester via Birmingham and the Fratton 09 seemed to go and shut release it.

Sundays can remember a Cl33-1 with 4TC on a two hourly Reading service.

Used to love it as always something happening, Even a cl73 in the Goods yard once.

Keith

 

 

 

[Downendian]

Ok so I'm trying to get to the bottom of what happened post demise of the Hymeks on this route in 1972, and when the class 31s resumed loco hauled services around 1977. I'm in the process of buying passenger timetables for that intervening period, and have two so far, May 1972- May 1973 and May 1973- May 1974 both have brought some surprises to me. So what I'm wondering is what operated these services- I sat there and watched them from a distance (sat at Parkway and watched various trains about a half a mile away on the Patchway-Filton junction line). I did see class 205 and 207 paired together on one occasion and remember 9 car DMUs around 1974/5, which were most probably Portsmouth Cardiffs. The 1972 service was very scarce to say the least, and hugely transformed in the 1973 timetable. 
 
In 1973 I was intrigued to see that the service was "split" with trains Portsmouth-Bristol (predominantly class 205s) but what were on the Portsmouth-Cardiffs that called at Bath and skirted through Dr Day's junction towards South Wales? Were these the 9 car DMUs or were they also sometimes but rarely class 205s? A forty year mystery has probably been solved - I remember being puzzled at seeing class 205s (or may have been 207s) in the distance at Temple Meads and never entering the station - probably it was these trains?
 
For completion I've also included the Bournemouth Cardiff Saturday service, which might also be a candidate for the 205/207 combo seen at Filton Junction, and most probably the service that brought class 33/1s with 2X4 TC through Bristol in that period.
 
Rather than just photograph the timetables - I've put the selected data here- hopefully the formatting works -it looks OK on screen!
 
Comments warmly appreciated as my layout is based on the Parkway-Filton-Patchway movements in the mid 1970s. If anyone can help with the reporting codes that would be most helpful too.
 
Portsmouth-Bristol, Cardiff services
Timetable 30 Sept 1972 – 6 May 1973
                                           M-F     Sat                                          Sun
Portsmouth Harbour        1725     1020    1320    1520    1725   1120   1720
Salisbury                          1900     1150    1448    1645    1900   1250    1850
Bath Spa                          2011     1254    1551    1752    2011   1400   1956
Bristol Temple Meads      2030        -           -       1808    2032   1422   2014
Cardiff General                 2136     1403    1700   1908       -       1535   2125
Swansea                             -             -       1821        -         -         -         -
 
                                              M-S    Sat until 23/9 Sun
Cardiff General                 0907      1245               1040     1750
Bristol Temple Meads      1006      1343               1200     1900
Bath Spa                          1020      1400               1213     1914
Salisbury                          1128      1508               1327      2027
Portsmouth Harbour        1306      1638               1502      2202
 
Portsmouth-Bristol, Cardiff services
 
Timetable 7 May 1973- 5 May 1974
                                              M-F-(Sat from 6/10)                                                     Sat until 29/9                             Sunday           
Portsmouth Harbour        0550  0656  0856   1056   1256   1456   1620   1656   1249  1256  1456  1620  1656   1120   1656
Salisbury                          0737  0845  1045   1245   1445   1645   1750   1850   1416  1445  1645  1750  1850   1250   1845
Bath Spa                          0845  0954  1151   1354   1551   1751   1902   1955   1531  1551  1751  1902  1955   1358   1957
Bristol Temple Meads      0859  1010  1207   1411   1607   1807      -       2011     -      1607   1807     -      2011  1419  2014
Cardiff Central                     -         -        -         -          -       -         2000      -       1642    -          -     2000     -       1535     -
Swansea                             -          -        -         -         -        -           -          -         -         -          -         -       -           -        -
                                              M-F-(Sat from 6/10)                               Sat until 29/9                                             Sunday
Cardiff Central                -         -        -       -       -        -        -        -       -    0820 1053     -         -          -       -        -     1750 
Bristol Temple Meads 0650  0908 1118 1300 1305 1518 1705 1908 0650    -         -    1300  1518  1705  1908 1210  1900
Bath Spa                     0707  0922 1132 1319 1319 1534 1723 1922 0707 0922 1154 1319  1534  1723  1922  1224  1914
Salisbury                     0816  1043 1243 1443 1443 1643 1843 2043 0816 1029 1256 1443  1643  1843  2043  1334  2027                  
Portsmouth Harbour   1015  1218 1418 1618 1618 1818 2018 2218 1018 1204 1426 1618  1818  2018  2218  1518  2204
                                                                  SO     SX
  Bournemouth-Cardiff service 1972/3
                                
                           Sat until 23/9/72     Sat until 29/9/73                        
Bournemouth                1330                            1330
Salisbury                       1514                            1514
Bath Spa                       1626                            1631
Bristol Temple Meads       -                                   -
Cardiff Central               1735                           1743       
Swansea                          -                                    -
                                  Sat until 23/9/72        Sat until 29/9/73                                                     
Cardiff Central                 0953                                0953
Bristol Temple Meads       -                                        -
Bath  Spa                        1100                                1058
Salisbury                         1215                                1214
Bournemouth                  1404                                1404

Edited May 7, 2016 by Downendian

[Gwiwer]

The Bournemouth - Cardiff summer Saturday dated trains you show were in fact Cardiff - Weymouth trains.  They were for some years the only passenger trains to use the Romsey - Eastleigh route via Chandlersford which was at the time nominally closed to passengers.  The route therefore avoided reversal at the very busy Southampton Central.  One train ran Cardiff - Salisbury - Weymouth and returned via Yeovil Pen Mill to Bristol and the other vice versa.  Traction was WR class 47 locos with WR-based MK1 stock which IIRC was an 8-coach rake.  On some occasions these trains did reverse at Southampton due either to a driver not signing the Chandlersford route or due to congestion through Southampton towards Eastleigh.  Whether a run-round at Southampton eased or worsened congestion is debatable.  I suspect these trains did not serve Temple Meads because of congestion again and an absence of any perceived commercial need to do so.

 

The previous three trains a day service (two on Sundays) between Cardiff and Portsmouth worked by Hymeks and Mk1 stock in usually 6-coach rakes was cut to one round trip for the final year of operation being an out-and-back working from Cardiff.  The Mk1 rakes lost their buffet cars when that facility was withdrawn though trolleys turned up randomly and infrequently after that.  If you wanted to travel at any other time the only options were the hourly semi-fast Portsmouth - Salisbury trains (3H units) which made poor connections with an infrequent Bristol - Salisbury service (usually WR class 120 units, sometimes a 117) which ran only a few times a day.  

 

The service was reconnected across Salisbury and ran at about 2-hour intervals with most being 3H units and some worked by WR DMMU types, again usually a 120.  The latter were slower than the SR units, failed to maintain the timetable and broke down.  As they were part of the regular-interval Hampshire local service they were loathed and complained of.  The same was true at the Bristol end of the 3H units - loathed and complained of by regulars accustomed to more comfort and access to toilets.  Mk1 coaches returned but behind class 31 locos which also weren't up to the job and eventually the SR was able to release enough class 33s to offer a more reliable service.

 

9-car SR DEMU formations would not have been Portsmouth - Cardiff workings.  Almost certainly they were Merrymaker excursions or other specials.  I remain convinced that non-gangwayed stock was not permitted to convey passengers through the Severn Tunnel.  In the DEMU era almost all Portsmouth workings were scheduled to terminate at / start from Bristol and not Cardiff as your timetable shows.

 

The 11.20 SuO Portsmouth - Cardiff and 17.50 return were booked for 8TC+33/1 with the loco propelling in push-pull from Portsmouth and therefore leading from Bristol, run round at Cardiff to lead back to Bristol and propel from there. WR men were not trained to work push-pull driving from the 4TC cab.  IIRC the train arrived ecs from Eastleigh late on Saturday and berthed overnight at Fratton, was worked by Fratton men to Salisbury thence Salisbury men (who signed the road to Bristol and were trained in 4TC push-pull operation) handing over to WR men at Bristol.  The reverse took place on the home run with the stock running ecs back to Eastleigh very late on the Sunday in time for Monday's morning peak.  I have known this train to be formed of a single 4TC on occasions and once of 3TC + 4TC.

[Andy Kirkham]

The 11.20 SuO Portsmouth - Cardiff and 17.50 return were booked for 8TC+33/1 with the loco propelling in push-pull from Portsmouth and therefore leading from Bristol, run round at Cardiff to lead back to Bristol and propel from there. WR men were not trained to work push-pull driving from the 4TC cab.  IIRC the train arrived ecs from Eastleigh late on Saturday and berthed overnight at Fratton, was worked by Fratton men to Salisbury thence Salisbury men (who signed the road to Bristol and were trained in 4TC push-pull operation) handing over to WR men at Bristol.  The reverse took place on the home run with the stock running ecs back to Eastleigh very late on the Sunday in time for Monday's morning peak.  I have known this train to be formed of a single 4TC on occasions and once of 3TC + 4TC.

As seen here:

BT16. A Class 33 propels its Portsmouth-Cardiff train through Stapleton Road, 1976 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

although in this case the loco is propelling from Bristol to Cardiff

[jonny777]

Didn't the 123 units work CF-PO trains for a short time around 1976 after being displaced from RG, or is that just an urban myth?

[The Stationmaster]

Didn't the 123 units work CF-PO trains for a short time around 1976 after being displaced from RG, or is that just an urban myth?

 

Surely it was the other way round and they came to the London Division after being taken off various workings (including Pompey) from Cardiff?

[Gwiwer]

 

 

in this case the loco is propelling from Bristol to Cardiff

 

There may have been some Bristol men trained in push-pull operation or the train might have been crewed by SR men conducted by WR men.  The former is more likely.  33/1+TC stock was rostered there at least weekly so it would have made sense to have some drivers sign them.  Possibly also they had transferred from an SR depot and retained traction knowledge.

 

Didn't the 123 units work CF-PO trains for a short time around 1976 after being displaced from RG, or is that just an urban myth?

 

 

Surely it was the other way round and they came to the London Division after being taken off various workings (including Pompey) from Cardiff?

 

 

Class 123 "Inter City" DMU sets were pre-Hymek on the route and appeared briefly in around 1966-7.  At the time most were still green.  They ran in 4-car and 8-car formations though the latter were too long for some platforms served as was also true of the later Sunday 8TC operations.  They were unloved and, like everywhere else they worked, were moved away as soon as possible.  That did however make room for the appearance on a daily basis of Cardiff-allocated Gresley buffet W9135E freshly outshopped in blue-grey when the Hymek-hauled sets arrived.  

[Downendian]

The Bournemouth - Cardiff summer Saturday dated trains you show were in fact Cardiff - Weymouth trains. They were for some years the only passenger trains to use the Romsey - Eastleigh route via Chandlersford which was at the time nominally closed to passengers. The route therefore avoided reversal at the very busy Southampton Central. One train ran Cardiff - Salisbury - Weymouth and returned via Yeovil Pen Mill to Bristol and the other vice versa. Traction was WR class 47 locos with WR-based MK1 stock which IIRC was an 8-coach rake. On some occasions these trains did reverse at Southampton due either to a driver not signing the Chandlersford route or due to congestion through Southampton towards Eastleigh. Whether a run-round at Southampton eased or worsened congestion is debatable. I suspect these trains did not serve Temple Meads because of congestion again and an absence of any perceived commercial need to do so.

 

The previous three trains a day service (two on Sundays) between Cardiff and Portsmouth worked by Hymeks and Mk1 stock in usually 6-coach rakes was cut to one round trip for the final year of operation being an out-and-back working from Cardiff. The Mk1 rakes lost their buffet cars when that facility was withdrawn though trolleys turned up randomly and infrequently after that. If you wanted to travel at any other time the only options were the hourly semi-fast Portsmouth - Salisbury trains (3H units) which made poor connections with an infrequent Bristol - Salisbury service (usually WR class 120 units, sometimes a 117) which ran only a few times a day.

 

The service was reconnected across Salisbury and ran at about 2-hour intervals with most being 3H units and some worked by WR DMMU types, again usually a 120. The latter were slower than the SR units, failed to maintain the timetable and broke down. As they were part of the regular-interval Hampshire local service they were loathed and complained of. The same was true at the Bristol end of the 3H units - loathed and complained of by regulars accustomed to more comfort and access to toilets. Mk1 coaches returned but behind class 31 locos which also weren't up to the job and eventually the SR was able to release enough class 33s to offer a more reliable service.

 

9-car SR DEMU formations would not have been Portsmouth - Cardiff workings. Almost certainly they were Merrymaker excursions or other specials. I remain convinced that non-gangwayed stock was not permitted to convey passengers through the Severn Tunnel. In the DEMU era almost all Portsmouth workings were scheduled to terminate at / start from Bristol and not Cardiff as your timetable shows.

 

The 11.20 SuO Portsmouth - Cardiff and 17.50 return were booked for 8TC+33/1 with the loco propelling in push-pull from Portsmouth and therefore leading from Bristol, run round at Cardiff to lead back to Bristol and propel from there. WR men were not trained to work push-pull driving from the 4TC cab. IIRC the train arrived ecs from Eastleigh late on Saturday and berthed overnight at Fratton, was worked by Fratton men to Salisbury thence Salisbury men (who signed the road to Bristol and were trained in 4TC push-pull operation) handing over to WR men at Bristol. The reverse took place on the home run with the stock running ecs back to Eastleigh very late on the Sunday in time for Monday's morning peak. I have known this train to be formed of a single 4TC on occasions and once of 3TC + 4TC.

OK I've gone back and photographed a relevant page of the timetable as evidence for you Gwiwer. It is rather self explanatory but illustrates the point that some of your statements on Cardiff-Portsmouth/Bournemouth services in 1973/4 are incorrect.

1. The Bournemouth service was not a Weymouth train, those were separate services and see the timetable which shows both Cardiff service trains here.

2. There were also Cardiff-Portsmouth services that did not call at Bristol, but did at Bath Spa. They were different services to the Temple Meads ones. Again timetable shows this.

3. You state that 3H DEMUs were not permitted through the Severn tunnel. Although not frequent they did do so in this era, I actually saw one on its way to Cardiff in 1974/5 and there are reports from other Bristol spotters of the same in the identical timeframe. If there was a ban I'm sure Mike (stationmaster) would have mentioned it too.

4. Unfortunately my spotting notes are bereft of details regarding service trains. Those 9-car formations were regular in 1973-1975 but ceased around 1976/7, and were not Thumpers but I suspect classes 116/117 or 119/120s. I don't think they were Merrymakers, but reiterate I'm very interested in what stock formed the Cardiff-Portsmouth and Cardiff-Bournemouth trains in the attached timetable. I don't have any information as to whether these 9 car sets were Portsmouth services, but are possible candidates.

I've just won a 1974/5 timetable and will be interested in what happened to these trains the next year.

Neil

Edited May 8, 2016 by Downendian

[griffgriff]

The service from Brighton restarted in 1979 as a SO out and back working it took a few years to become daily this was when the standard 5 car sets were used rather than the SR Oxted 8 sets.

This is the first timetable

Also pocket versionhttp://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v32/p436886910-4.jpg

1980 -1981 its the same

1981-1982 now SO and SunO

On saturdays retimed to 0820 from BTN and extended to CDF.arrive 1236. Return is 1615 from Cardiff arriving BTN 2036

On sundays 1620 from BTN to BTM arrive 1900. Return was 1705 CDF to BTN arrive 2136.

1982-1983 as per 1981-82

1983-84 saturday remains as per the previous two years the Sunday service from Brighton moved to 1020.

1984-85 dont have access to at present

1985-86 Service becomes daily. Once a day M-S and twice a day from BTN on Sundays but only one return train.

I have a timetable from 86 that shows a Brighton to Cardiff 8:30 service but the return working was from Bristol as in the late 70s.

 

Griff

 

Edit for grammar.

Edited May 8, 2016 by griffgriff

[Downendian]

As seen here:

BT16. A Class 33 propels its Portsmouth-Cardiff train through Stapleton Road, 1976 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

although in this case the loco is propelling from Bristol to Cardiff

Lovely pic Andy, but I think the date is incorrect with 1976. The 33/1 looks to be pre-TOPs? They were all renumbered by then.

Neil

[jonny777]

Surely it was the other way round and they came to the London Division after being taken off various workings (including Pompey) from Cardiff?

 

 

Yes, but then they went back again in the mid 70s for about 18 months.

 

This photo suggests they did work Portsmouth trains in 1976, although the unit still has its 'L' set number rather than a 'C' one.

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/_4801688_orig.jpg