MK3 sleeper Trains blue/grey livery

[totonlover]

Hi I have just got hold of some MK3 sleepers in blue/grey intercity livery for modelling oo gauge, what sort of formation of coaches would run in these rakes and about what time period.

 

TIA

[Flood]

Mk3a Sleepers were first used in January 1982 and remained predominantly blue and grey until about mid 1988. Repaints into executive started in 1985 changing to swallow livery from 1987.

 

This thread already lists Mk3a sleeper rakes on the Western Region and Eastern Region. I have got some rakes listed from a Crewe overnight in 1984, I'll have to dig them out.

[Flood]

Just in case anyone hadn't realised I'd edited my previous post last night I've now moved the information to this one.

 

Crewe Overnight Friday 1 June 1984

 

21.24 Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh

45134 (85025 from BNS) +

92172, 10614, 10609, 10617, 5436, 5540, 9451, 81252, 92190, 10619, 10719, 10612, 5359, 5463, 9459

 

22.40 Euston - Glasgow/Perth

86208 +

93351, 93447, 92065, 10569, 10721, 10604, 10693, 10535, 10712, 10592, 10685, 6171, 92155

 

23.30 Euston - Glasgow

86321 +

84575, 10534, 10680, 10595, 10587, 10692, 10537, 10715, 10583, 10714, 10588, 10675, 92105

 

23.20 Glasgow - Euston

86211 +

92101, 10681, 10548, 10701, 10582, 10697, 10542, 10709, 10544, 10546, 10691, 10590, 92070

 

22.25 Perth/22.15 Glasgow - Euston

87027 +

10688, 10581, 92198, 6102, 10698, 10547, 10679, 10560, 81472, 10720, 10558, 10702, 10553, 93334, 93097

 

17.40 Fort William/20.30 Inverness - Euston

86034 +

10713, 10589, 5429, 9481, 6049, 92185, 10683, 10584, 10704, 10545, 10703, 10586, 93355, 93874, 93168

 

19.30 Inverness - Euston???

87001 +

9526, 10602, 10540, 10706, 10607, 5998, 5522, 5934, 6110, 92164, 93385, 93734, 93669

 

20.30 Aberdeen/23.50 Glasgow - Bristol

86215 85018 +

84456, 9465, 5352, 10608, 10716, 10613, 84420, 84362, 9460, 5274, 5574, 10618, 10717, 10615

 

22.00 Stranraer - Euston ???

86229 +

80856, 80885, 92113, 3352, 6183, 5932, 6163, 5946, 10696, 10562, 92013

[eastwestdivide]

Sat 5/5/84 at Newcastle, heading for London 0141/44

47528 +

81215, 10730, 10578, 10662, 10507, 10665, 10515, 10655, 10571, 80960, 93741, 96299, 96297

 

NB the last two vehicles - the Newton Chambers motorail vans

 

(I was on the utterly bonkers Anglo Scottish Freighter railtour, which had taken all day to work its way up from Marylebone)

[eastwestdivide]

Found some more: Doncaster overnight, small hours of Fri 18 - Sat 19 March 1983 (must have been mad)

 

47542 heading north at 2334/37 +

86755* 86754* 86146 10501 10660 10532 10668 10500 10648 10529 10669 5340 5343 81455

(GUVs marked * are listed as Motorail GUVs in the coaching stock book of the time)

 

47413 heading north at 0044/46 +

81308 10513 10650 10519 10652 10533 10654 10503 10647 81624

 

47424 heading north at 0157 +

96294 96295 86691* 81215 10570 10516 10522 10515 10517 10659 10506 10664 81509

(Newton Chambers motorail vans again)

 

47526 south at 0208 + Mk1 sleepers:

81438 2521 2075 2080 2577 25935 15677 2592 2127 2557 2037 80835

 

47470 south at 0333/40 +

81561 10665 10512 10653 10521 10530 10523 10655 10507 81490 86168* 96297 96290

(Newton Chambers motorail vans again)

 

47120 north at 0356/0408 + Mk1s

81168 2078 2555 80579

(seems very short and very late to be going north - was it a service train? Was there a London-Leeds sleeper at that period?)

 

47520 south at 0424/27 +

81565 5382 5289 10661 10505 10662 10524 10663 10511 10656 10528 86641* 86453*

 

47552 north at 0431/34 + Mk1s

80597 2096 2803 2088 2586 13387 15630 2059 2801 2077 2655 80958

(also quite late to be going N)

 

47529 south at 0505/11 +

81426 10578 10672 10502 10651 10526 10670 10534 10671 10527 81272

 

That's all. Then fell asleep on the first DMU of the day to Sheffield - those heaters did it every time.

 

Edit: on reflection, I guess 47120 on the very short train wasn't in service, as I've no record of a corresponding one in the other direction.

[Flood]

That's two of us who must have been mad because I did a York overnight exactly a week after you were at Doncaster!

 

Train stock very similar to yours (I think two rakes are exactly the same) but I didn't manage to get the full rake for the later Mk1 sleeper train. York in 1983 was quite difficult to work out on which platform the next train was going to arrive. York in 1985 had every train (yes every train - parcels, sleepers, you name it) on the arrival screens, it was so easy to get all the rakes.

[eastwestdivide]

That's two of us who must have been mad because I did a York overnight exactly a week after you were at Doncaster!

I suspect it's not just the two of us. Hope the OP appreciates it - I distinctly remember thinking at 2am, I must make a complete record of this, just in case someone thinks it's still interesting in 27 years' time.

We did it just for you!

 

I'd forgotten those Newton Chambers motorail things got updated to work with Mk3 sleepers.

Any idea on whether there was a Leeds sleeper by that date? I know there was an overnight London-Leeds via Wakefield KG a few years earlier, as I caught it on an all line rover, 31-hauled of all things, but not sure if it carried sleepers.

 

Somewhere I may have records of rakes at Paddington at the same era, since you've covered WCML and me ECML. And did the Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness "Scottish internal" sleeper go over to Mk3s? That would have been a smaller, more modellable rake presumably.

[Flood]

I've listed a Paddington rake (and the 1985 East Coast rakes) on the previous thread.

 

The last two Newton Chambers motorail vehicles didn't get withdrawn until May 1988 when the East Coast sleepers moved to the West Coast. I find it amazing they lasted that long.

 

I've had a look in the 1982-83 all line timetable and it states a 00.50 Leeds - Kings Cross sleeper which joins with the 20.25 Edinburgh - Kings Cross at Doncaster and an 01.10 Kings Cross - Leeds sleeper but both of these are only until the October so they were not running in the winter. There's nothing for Leeds in the 1983-84 timetable so summer 1982 must have been the last year.

 

The Scottish internal sleepers did indeed go over to Mk3a stock and are described in the February 1988 Rail:

 

Each overnight portion (Glasgow - Inverness, Edinburgh - Inverness, Inverness - Glasgow, Inverness - Edinburgh) used 2 TSO, BSO from the normal five vehicle air braked Inverness rakes used during the day (Mk2a or Mk2c stock). For the sleepers:

 

"The Mk3 sleepers (all SLEPs) work a 5-day circuit around Scotland, covering each of the internal sleeper services in turn (Edinburgh-Inverness, Inverness-Glasgow, Glasgow-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Inverness, Inverness-Edinburgh)." The Aberdeen sleeper is interesting in itself. "This leaves Glasgow on the 2330 to Inverness, is shunted at Perth, attached to the 0110 to Aberdeen," a Mk2 air-con push-pull set "and then returns empty attached to the 1105 Aberdeen-Glasgow." a Mk3a push-pull set.

[Flood]

I'm feeling especially generous this afternoon so I'll do a quick run through of Mk3a Sleepers.

 

10500 - 10619 were SLEP (Sleeper, either class, pantry)

 

10646 - 10733 were SLE (Sleeper, either class)

 

Hornby model R4282 is an SLEP numbered 10543, Hornby model R4282A is also an SLEP (even though it is numbered 10646!). Now for the differences between the two types:

 

Externally on the body there are only two. On the berth side both types have (from left to right) a single window (toilet, always white), six pairs of windows then another single window. On the SLE the far right hand single window is a berth so is clear, on an SLEP the far right hand single window is where the pantry is for the attendant so is white. I did say two differences, to the right of the white pantry window on an SLEP is a narrow grill. It's not on an SLE. There are also slight differences in the modules between the bogies.

 

Mk3a SLEP

 

Mk3a SLE

 

Lima didn't paint the far right hand window white so they actually made a correct SLE.

 

 

Edit: after correction by Bomag.

[eastwestdivide]

Wasn't the idea that they would run in pairs of SLE/SLEP, sharing a "pantry" between two cars? The pantry being where the attendant had their office and prepared breakfast trays etc.

Don't know if that was the case in practice, but you wouldn't expect to see a train without any SLEPs.

 

10500 - 10619 were SLEP (Sleeper, either class, pantry)

 

10646 - 10732 were SLE (Sleeper, either class)

And the gap in the numbering was due to a cancellation of part of the order, I seem to recall.

[Flood]

Quite correct regarding the pairing. The 1982-83 Passenger Train Marshalling book states the toilet on an SLE should always be at the South end and a toilet on an SLEP should always be at the North end (hence the reversing of each other coach in photos). In practice the reversing did not always occur and some trains carried more SLEPs than SLEs.

 

10620 to 10645 were the cancelled order as you state and in addition 10734 and 10735 were also on order. Something in my brain tells me that these two were built instead as 2914 and 2915, the first two Royal Train Mk3 sleepers.

 

 

Edit: after correction by Bomag.

[Bomag]

10620 to 10645 were the cancelled order as you state and in addition 10733 to 10735 were also on order. Something in my brain tells me that two of these were built instead as 2914 and 2915, the first two Royal Train Mk3 sleepers.

 

10734 was indeed built as 2914 before being renumbered out of the royal stock section. AFAIK 10733 was one of the Morpeth casualties - if it was the last to be built then it had a very short life as it was delivered in 1984 and the accident was on the 24th June 1984.

[winterbournecm]

Some interesting stuff here - and well done you night owls for capturing the coach details. I guess we all did things years ago, photos, wagon numbers and thought "Whats the point", well it's crucial forsome people nearly 30 years later.

 

I remember the mk111 sleepers on the Western in blue & grey, and the day coaches were mk2d,e or f coaches and a BR MK2S BFK brake corridor half brake.

 

This was often declassified, and was a joy to "bag" on an overnight as the compartments were warm as toast. The subdued lighting and black leather upholstery was luxury to strech out on, in total contrast to the stark flourescent lighting and air con whine from the second class open coaches in the rake. You knew when the loco was changed though at Plymouth when the air con kicked into life again!

 

The day coaches were sometimes used during the day as a short passenger train to Plymouth deprting PZ at 13.30 and returning about 16.00 from Plymouth, I rode up with Steam Heat Harris one day after a Penzance box early turn with 47829 and three coaches. It took off like a rocket from the stations. Happy days.

 

I have a picture of 50027 arriving at St Erth one June evening in 1987 when it left PZ at 19.45. It's on my website, but I'll load it up later.

 

Just watched the Night Riviera depart Par headed for PZ with 17174 12100 10232 10616 10532 10590 10534 in the consist headed by Tintagel Castle. Still a charming train - loco hauled with nice staff on board.

[Flood]

Thanks Bomag, I've now corrected my previous text.

 

Craig, I spent as much of the summer of 1987 in Cornwall as I possibly could and took the sleeper day coaches on the daytime local services on a number of occasions. One day I'll actually scan my slides let alone upload them!

[design8027]

Forgive my ignorance but when did the 'internal' MK3 sleepers stop running. Planning a small to medium size highland (late 80s/early 90s) layout and want to run a sleeper service. The 'royal highlander' has come to mind but even think a 8 car sleeper set would be toooooo long. A short train with a sleeper coach attached would be great. Any idea's or hints would be greatly appriciated.

 

Stephen.

[Flood]

The October 1989 to May 1990 Passenger Timetable still has the sleeper symbol against the 23.25 Edinburgh/23.30 Glasgow QS to Inverness but the May 1990 Timetable only has a 23.50 Glasgow to Inverness with no sleeper symbol and a Sprinter connection to it from Edinburgh.

 

Looks like they stopped from May 1990.

[Nile_Griffith]

Im just quietly amazed at how involved it all was.

 

Just seems a shame that in these days of cut price Travel Bodges and Premiere Binn's. The rail operators can't find a way to make the overnight sleeprs attractive to passengers again. I guess what holds it back is the lack of on train, en suite, so to speak. If they could crack that I think they might find some interested users, me included.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

Im just quietly amazed at how involved it all was.

 

Just seems a shame that in these days of cut price Travel Bodges and Premiere Binn's. The rail operators can't find a way to make the overnight sleeprs attractive to passengers again. I guess what holds it back is the lack of on train, en suite, so to speak. If they could crack that I think they might find some interested users, me included.

 

 

Not quite !! The Cornish Night Riviera is going from strength to strength and we shall be running out of SLEPs by next year at this rate. See other threads on here !

[Nile_Griffith]

Glad to hear it Paul.

 

Though I have some work colleagues who regularly travel to London from Plymouth and when I've asked about the overnight sleeper they always say it's the lack of facilities that puts them off (that said they are off the female persuasion and a bit more discerning when it comes to such things.... Ha Ha).

 

It has crossed my mind before that with a night at your average London Travel Bodge coming in at around £85 a night, plus fuel down and the cost of parking which can be around the £35 mark for 24 hours. If there was a reasonable level of en-suite accommodation on the rails. Travelling down to London or up to Edinburgh overnight ready for an Oh my God O'clock start would be a definite option. Must admit that the thought of disembarking and then tracking down the on station facilities does leave me a bit cold (pardon the pun).

 

Ironically breakfast on board you can kind of live without as all major terminus stations are replete with every kind of eatery under the sun. But in my mind what a modern sleeper cabin needs is it's own sanitary facilities, to make it a no-brainer decision.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

This was covered in a thread afew weeks back. Whilst sinks and hot and cold running water and vanity packs are in each berth, toilets and showers in each one start to impeed on our loading gauge. Short of taking out berths and expanding the ones left but then you will need even more coaches to cope etc etc. It would be nice though esp. on the Scotland run. The overnight ferry from Plymouth does'nt have these either - and you need them in a storm !!

[mjkerr]

The October 1989 to May 1990 Passenger Timetable still has the sleeper symbol against the 23.25 Glasgow QS/23.30 Edinburgh to Inverness but the May 1990 Timetable only has a 23.50 Glasgow to Inverness with no sleeper symbol and a Sprinter connection to it from Edinburgh.

 

Looks like they stopped from May 1990.

Could you check the times for the southbound Inverness services please?

 

Also the sole Glasgow - Aberdeen?

[Flood]

Could you check the times for the southbound Inverness services please?

 

Also the sole Glasgow - Aberdeen?

The Glasgow - Aberdeen was part of the service officially described as the 23.30 Glasgow - Perth (arr 00.37). At the same time as this portion to Inverness combined with the Edinburgh portion (arr 00.54) the single SLEP for Aberdeen was removed and added to the push-pull stock from the 22.35 Aberdeen - Perth (arr 00.16). This then departed as the 01.10 Perth - Aberdeen from the Dundee platform with the Inverness stock also departing at 01.10 but from the Highland line platform.

 

The southbound service from Inverness was the 23.40 which arrived at Stirling at 04.15. This then split to become the 04.25 to Glasgow QS and the 05.48 to Edinburgh.

 

(Note: I got the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness departure times the wrong way round at first, I've now corrected these)

[winterbournecm]

Just reading an article in traction in which the author mentions Deltics hauling Mk3 sleepers on the East Coast. Looking at the slim period dates of introduction of the Mk3s and withdrawal of the Deltics, did they ever work an air-conditioned sleeper service?

[Xerces Fobe2]

Just reading an article in traction in which the author mentions Deltics hauling Mk3 sleepers on the East Coast. Looking at the slim period dates of introduction of the Mk3s and withdrawal of the Deltics, did they ever work an air-conditioned sleeper service?

If I recall correctly Deltics could not haul MK3's because of the incapability of their ETH!

 

XF

[phixer64]

55021 ran to Oban with a push set in August 1981

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deadmans_handle/4354672629/