Round ended wagons: 2 and 3 plank

[drduncan]

Dear all,

Does anyone have any dimensioned drawings for GWR round ended 3 plank wagons?

 

Also I’ve seen a 7mm brass kit that suggests the GWR did round ended 2 plank wagons. I can’t remember any reference to this in the bible, so does anyone have any references that can be followed up, or info they can share?

 

Thanks

 

Duncan

 

[magmouse]

I've not come across a drawing, but there is a picture here that gives a bit of a clue on the shape:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3641.htm

 

It's hard to tell if this is a 2 or 3 plank wagon, given the height of the sides was pretty much the same. There is probably just enough in the photo to scale off the shape of the curve, and base the rest on other drawings, including @Compound2632's in the comments section here:

 

I would also be interested in any more info anyone has, as I am planning a round-ended three-plank wagon in 7mm at some point.

 

Nick.

 

 

[bécasse]

It's definitely a 3 planker as one can just see the plank outlines on the interior of the far end - and it looks as if those ends are about 4½ planks high.

[Compound2632]

As far as I can work out, there was quite a variety or perhaps evolution with 3-plankers. I believe, though, that they were all 15' 6" over headstocks rather than the 16' 0" of the 4-plank wagons that succeeded them. They progressed from timber frames to iron frames and a good many are listed as conversions from broad gauge so goodness only knows what that entailed. The first 3,650 out of 6,333 were built with rounded ends, but when did these start to be removed / by when had they all gone? the Windsor St. photo shows that at least some still had them c. 1903. The whole thing looks like a quagmire. 

 

I've looked rather more closely at the 2-plank wagons, going as far as to scratch-build a couple. Here my reference was T. Wood, Saltney Carriage and Wagon Works (GWSG / The Wider View, 2007), which gives full details of dimensions for all the lots built at Saltney. the photographic evidence seems to be that wagons built at Worcester and Swindon were very much the same. Most were 15' 6" over headstocks, 7' 6" wide, and 1' 10" deep - that is what I based my sketch on. There were, however, some built only 15' 0" long, 7' 0" wide; and the very first lot, though of the larger dimensions, had sides only 1' 6" deep. I've seen no evidence that any had round ends.

 

if you are seriously going to engage with the 2-plank wagons, I can't recommend Wood's book enough. Full lot and numbering info and several good photos at various stages in the wagons' lives, essential for understanding the brake gear (and how it changed).

 

Atkins et al. is very weak on anything that didn't get assigned a diagram: the bulk of ordinary opens and covered goods wagons (except Iron Minks) - or in simple terms the vast majority of wagons - built in the 19th century. It's excellent on what it does cover but calling it "the Bible" is a mis-nomer; it lacks the Old Testament. It's not as if the information isn't there in the wagon registers, as wood ably demonstrates.

[drduncan]

Thanks.

 

I’ve got Tony Wood’s book and found nothing in it to substantiate the WEP? kit instruction’s claim that 2 plank wagons had round ends at first, but on the other hand Tony’s book only considers Saltney wagons not those built at Worcester or Swindon and I suppose that some variation in design in the 1870s might be possible hence my OP.

 

Do you have any dimensions for the height of the rounded end above the side of the wagon. I’m imagining it would be a single 7” plank which would match the side planks or maybe a 9” one. Do you have any thoughts.

 

WRT the BG 3 plank convertibles I don’t think any of them were built with rounded ends, only SG ones. I’ll double check the BGS data sheets and PM you if different.

 

Duncan

[swampy]

If you can get your hands on a copy, the 16 page instruction sheet from Great Western Wagons 3 plank kit has the history, lot list with numbers, livery details, an extract of an 1884 engraving, and a source list of 23 photos. 

 

The 1884 engraving is in "Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers" 1884 Plate 68. I doubt your local library will have it.   

 

Drawings are available in

• Railway Equipment Drawings by L. Tavender 
• Edward Bros ( scale drawings) ref 12/9 ( round ends)
• Development of the GWR 16' open wagon, HMRS journal 1972 , v7, nos 9/10/11

BG 3 planks had square ends.

Round end disappeared c. 1914 .

 

All the above info is from the instructions. I've never heard of Edward Bros. Did they do a range of drawings like Skinley?

 

 

 

HTH

Pete

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I’ve got Tony Wood’s book and found nothing in it to substantiate the WEP? kit instruction’s claim that 2 plank wagons had round ends at first, but on the other hand Tony’s book only considers Saltney wagons not those built at Worcester or Swindon and I suppose that some variation in design in the 1870s might be possible hence my OP.

 

No indeed - not a hint of rounded ends. Of the good photos of 2-plank wagons, 19159 (plate 28) and 20425 (plate 20435) are both Saltney-built wagons (of the larger dimensions) but 20195 (plate 23) and 20181 (plate 32) are Worcester-built wagons, but look much the same. So I based by models on these.

 

There are also 2-plank wagons of rather different design, with springs mounted behind the axleguards and headstocks that do not extend beyond the solebars; these wagons are fitted with self-contained buffers - plates 22 and 31. Such wagons were conversions from broad gauge - see this topic:

 

(The photo under discussion is not the one that pops up in the embedded link!)

 

Also, Wood's plate 31 also includes part of a 2-plank wagon with 1' 6" sides.

 

Plate 30 gives a nice contrast in 3-plank wagons: one, whose number isn't in view, has a timber underframe; it's pretty well a 2-plank wagon but with 3 planks. The one to its right, 41088, old series lot 333 c. 1886, has all mod cons - iron underframe, end stanchions, etc. and filler strip for the drop door. 

 

The set of photos plates 30-32 date from 1908 and several of the wagons are in departmental use. Wood has a statistical analysis of lifetimes. The mode lifetime gives the best indication of when these wagons would be becoming rare. For Saltney-built 2-plank wagons this works out as 1914.

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, drduncan said:

Also I’ve seen a 7mm brass kit that suggests the GWR did round ended 2 plank wagons. I can’t remember any reference to this in the bible, so does anyone have any references that can be followed up, or info they can share?

 

This one perhaps? I don't mean any disrespect, but do wonder if the text bits on rounded ends have been mixed up with that for 3-plankers.

 

 

 

The round-ended 3-plankers do pop up in the background of period photos, if you look closely. The challenge is remembering which photos! I don't suppose you need grainy photos though, but dimensions.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Mikkel
To clarify

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

This one perhaps?

 

I recall a topic on building this kit. I felt then as now that it skimps a bit on solebar detail. I seem to remember being in a state of disagreement with its corner plates.

 

9 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I don't suppose you need grainy photos though, but dimensions.

 

Grainy photos can be surprisingly useful if one knows the basic dimensions: 15' 6" over headstocks, 7' 6" wide over sheeting, 1' 10" deep, 9' 0" wheelbase - everything else falls into place.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Compound2632
Grainy photos, not Granny photos - though maybe comes to the same thing.

[drduncan]

1 hour ago, swampy said:

If you can get your hands on a copy, the 16 page instruction sheet from Great Western Wagons 3 plank kit has the history, lot list with numbers, livery details, an extract of an 1884 engraving, and a source list of 23 photos. 

 

The 1884 engraving is in "Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers" 1884 Plate 68. I doubt your local library will have it.   

 

Drawings are available in

• Railway Equipment Drawings by L. Tavender 
• Edward Bros ( scale drawings) ref 12/9 ( round ends)
• Development of the GWR 16' open wagon, HMRS journal 1972 , v7, nos 9/10/11

BG 3 planks had square ends.

Round end disappeared c. 1914 .

 

All the above info is from the instructions. I've never heard of Edward Bros. Did they do a range of drawings like Skinley?

 

 

 

HTH

Pete

Pete,

Might I ask a favour? Would it be possible to scan the Edward Bros drawing and the HMRS drawing and pm them over to me?

Thanks
Duncan

[swampy]

1 minute ago, drduncan said:

Pete,

Might I ask a favour? Would it be possible to scan the Edward Bros drawing and the HMRS drawing and pm them over to me?

Thanks
Duncan

Sorry Duncan, I don't have the actual drawings. I was merely showing where the drawings can be found.

Pete

[drduncan]

1 minute ago, swampy said:

Sorry Duncan, I don't have the actual drawings. I was merely showing where the drawings can be found.

Pete

Ah well, at least I know where to go!

[magmouse]

8 hours ago, swampy said:

The 1884 engraving is in "Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers" 1884 Plate 68. I doubt your local library will have it.   

 

Your local library may not have it, but the internet does!

 

https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/362/mode/2up

 

Sure enough, plate 68 shows an "iron framed wagon to carry 9 tons". It is not identified as GWR, though. There are also drawings of other "mineral wagons" showing arrangements of couplings, buffer springs, etc.

 

Very usefully, the 3-plank drawing shows the cross section of the "bulb" style solebar, which I have found hard to make out even in otherwise quite clear photos.

 

Note this is quite a substantial download (48MB+ for the colour PDF), but you can view online. Most of the figures, including those of the wagons, are at the back, so if you are using the online viewer, I suggest starting at the back and working forward.

 

There are several other articles of 19th century railway interest, including on "Portable Railways" by none other than P Decauville himself, locomotive running sheds, mineral wagons of South Wales and - somewhat alarmingly - "Petroleum Fuel in Locomotives".

 

Nick.

 

Plate 68 belongs to the article on South Wales Mineral Wagons, and the article text indicates the drawing is of a GWR wagon (p.424).

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by magmouse
Update

[magmouse]

On 24/02/2022 at 15:55, Compound2632 said:

I felt then as now that it skimps a bit on solebar detail.

 

You're not wrong - there's a lot of detail missing, and what there is, is etched into the face of the solebars, not proud of it. I added some detail in plastic, plus etched crown plates from (I think) the Broad Gauge Society:

 

 

I decided to leave the corner plate bolt detail as provided in the kit. It's currently in the paint shop, to be finished in a battered red livery, along the lines of those in Wood's book and the GWR Wagons Appendix.

 

Nick.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by magmouse
Edit to replace lost photo

[Miss Prism]

That's excellent. One carping comment - the diameter of the brake shaft (between the Vee and the tumbler) was typically 2" I think.

 

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, magmouse said:

Your local library may not have it, but the internet does!

 

https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/362/mode/2up

 

Many thanks Nick!

 

For those who struggle to find it, plate 68 is on page 736. The discussion of it is on page 424.

 

The 2-plank wagon on page 734 (plate 67) is described on page 423 as a 10 ton Rhymney Railway wagon.

 

I found the discussion of iron- vs wood frames interesting, from page 430:

 

 

 

Also some lovely drawings in there. The drawing of couplings on page 502 would look good in a frame!

[jwealleans]

16 hours ago, swampy said:

I've never heard of Edward Bros. Did they do a range of drawings like Skinley?

 

No-one else seems to have picked up on this.   The Edwards Brothers worked at Paddington (possibly in the Goods office, I can't remember now) and drew rolling stock from their own observations.  The Gauge O Guild hold the collection of drawings.  

 

Like all such they're to be taken with a degree of caution - my interest in them some years ago was that they contained a number of continental vehicles.   Their Belgian 20T van showed the lettering as yellow, where I know it to have been red.  Confusion with the brake levers, which were painted yellow at one time.   Overall, though, they were a pretty good representation dimensionally and where I've been able to check other vehicles against other sources they're better than, say, Skinley.

 

 

 

[magmouse]

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

One carping comment - the diameter of the brake shaft (between the Vee and the tumbler) was typically 2" I think.

 

That's a good carping comment - the trickiness is that there isn't really enough material in the vee hanger and brake push rod assembly to take a much larger cross-shaft. I need to see if I can get some fine tube as a sleeve over the wire when doing these in future.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

Those are extremely interesting remarks coming, as they do, from Clayton in 1884. Clayton was the chair of the RCH Wagon Superintendent's Committee and to my eye Midland influence is evident in the 1887 specifications for PO wagons. Under his superintendency, the Midland built no iron-framed ordinary wagons; indeed did not adopt steel frames until 1911 and then only for covered goods wagons - a mere 1,000 vehicles by 1922. I am indebted to a fellow Midland wagon enthusiast, Andy Brown, for a snippet from the MR Carriage & Wagon committee in 1883, early on in the period when the Midland was buying up large numbers of PO wagons: "the average life [sic - means age] of coal wagons purchased is 9 years, the average life [in service] of coal wagons is assumed to be 16 years. There is therefore an unexpired life of 7 years" [Midland Railway Society Journal No. 77 (Autumn 2021) p. 26]. From this Andy concludes that the Midland's ex-PO wagons would be extinct by the mid-1890s whereas I can produce photographic evidence of them still in service on the Midland main line Toton-Cricklewood coal trains c. 1900. I suspect that Clayton may have come to revise his opinion; my analysis of Midland wagon statistics tends to support a 30-year lifetime as typical for a wagon built in the 1870s through to the 1900s; Wood shows that the Saltney-built wagons of the first half of the 1870s had lifetimes around 38 - 40 years.

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

That's a good carping comment - the trickiness is that there isn't really enough material in the vee hanger and brake push rod assembly to take a much larger cross-shaft.

 

It's a fault of many kits.

[magmouse]

1 minute ago, Miss Prism said:

It's a fault of many kits.

 

Yes, although I don't think it is as simple as using thicker wire. Since the real thing isn't just a rod of a single diameter, but has a reduced diameter where the brake lever fits on, and possibly at other bearing points, it's never going to quite work modelling it with a single piece of wire. There will be a compromise somewhere - either the shaft diameter, or the width of vee hanger/brake lever material, or trying to drill a hole almost the size of the material itself.

 

I think I need to order some of this: https://www.eileensemporium.com/materials-for-modellers/product/brass-round-tube-1-2mm-x-1-0mm-x-305mm-mbt12/category_pathway-1085 and try making the shafts from wire in a tube.

 

Years ago, I used to model in 4mm scale, and spent a lot of time trying to get detailed components delicate enough. Coming now to 7mm, its feels odd to find that sometimes components are too weedy, and need beefing up to get them to scale.

 

Nick.

[bécasse]

My solution to beefing up such a short length of wire/rod on a completed model would be to find some (preferably black or brown) plastic-covered electrical wire of the correct OD, pull out the copper wire, run a small drill through it to check it is clear, cut it to the correct length(s) and then slit it along one side to enable it to be clipped onto the existing wire/rod.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, bécasse said:

My solution to beefing up such a short length of wire/rod on a completed model would be to find some (preferably black or brown) plastic-covered electrical wire of the correct OD, pull out the copper wire, run a small drill through it to check it is clear, cut it to the correct length(s) and then slit it along one side to enable it to be clipped onto the existing wire/rod.

 

Genius! I'll do that - thanks.

[swampy]

On 24/02/2022 at 14:20, drduncan said:

Do you have any dimensions for the height of the rounded end above the side of the wagon. I’m imagining it would be a single 7” plank which would match the side planks or maybe a 9” one. Do you have any thoughts.

 

Yes, here are my thoughts...

 

Just in case you haven't found any drawings, I've dug out my made up GWW 3 planker, and the dimensions are as follows, measured with a vernier:

 

Top of side to bottom of solebar  = 11.5mm

Top of round end to bottom of headstock = 15.1mm

 

So the top plank is 3.6mm, which equates to about 10.8" in 4mm scale. It doesn't overlap the side.

The chord is 27.25mm, so I'll leave others to work out the radius of the round end, my O-level maths was a long time ago.

 

Pete

[drduncan]

2 hours ago, swampy said:

Yes, here are my thoughts...

 

Just in case you haven't found any drawings, I've dug out my made up GWW 3 planker, and the dimensions are as follows, measured with a vernier:

 

Top of side to bottom of solebar  = 11.5mm

Top of round end to bottom of headstock = 15.1mm

 

So the top plank is 3.6mm, which equates to about 10.8" in 4mm scale. It doesn't overlap the side.

The chord is 27.25mm, so I'll leave others to work out the radius of the round end, my O-level maths was a long time ago.

 

Pete

Thanks!

Very helpful.

D