Coaching Stock - 'The Clansman' 1986

[forest2807]

I've just been having a clearout/tidyup and came across a scrap of paper covered in my father's handwriting. Despite being a devout LNER fan, he seems to have taken an interest in the stock for this train and this list dates from Saturday 20th September 1986.

 

'Up' Clansman - 1100 Inverness - Euston 20/09/1986

 

BG SC84099 Mk1 Blue/Grey (extra coach, not usually part of train formation) - NB I don't know how he knew this, I'm merely transcribing the info!

RB M1869 Mk1 Executive

TSO M12144 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12151 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12137 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12145 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12091 Mk3a Executive

FO M11048 Mk3a Executive

BG M92034 Mk1 Executive

 

Unfortunately he didn't note the number of the loco hauling the train - can anyone shed any light on this?

Anyway, I hope this is of some use to somebody!

[jbg06003]

I've just been having a clearout/tidyup and came across a scrap of paper covered in my father's handwriting. Despite being a devout LNER fan, he seems to have taken an interest in the stock for this train and this list dates from Saturday 20th September 1986.

 

'Up' Clansman - 1100 Inverness - Euston 20/09/1986

 

BG SC84099 Mk1 Blue/Grey (extra coach, not usually part of train formation) - NB I don't know how he knew this, I'm merely transcribing the info!

RB M1869 Mk1 Executive

TSO M12144 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12151 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12137 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12145 Mk3a Executive

TSO M12091 Mk3a Executive

FO M11048 Mk3a Executive

BG M92034 Mk1 Executive

 

Unfortunately he didn't note the number of the loco hauling the train - can anyone shed any light on this?

Anyway, I hope this is of some use to somebody!

 

Can't help with the loco that day but I have posted a shot of 47 517 on this service on the 28th June 1986 on Claggy's ScR thread

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/429-scottish-region-photos-1980s/page__st__25

 

A quick trawl through the few pics I have of the Clansman shows that the blue/grey BG was reasonably common. Was the prestige passenger service on the Highland line at the time (admittedly, this doesn't go for much), replaced in 1988 (?) by an HST.

 

Hope this is of interest,

 

Bruce

[DavidBelcher]

I think there was a parallel period lasting a couple of years when Inverness travellers had a choice of The Clansman and The Highland Chieftain; after the latter appeared, The Clansman was downgraded somewhat and re-routed between Carlisle and Stirling via Edinburgh instead of going direct via Mossend, before getting the axe entirely in the early 90s. Although it has to be said that trying to make an Anglo-Scottish express part of the regular-interval London-Wolverhampton service was never the best of ideas, even if it did give my home town a named train to and from Euston for a good few years (although after loco-hauled trains were reinstated over Barmouth Bridge, the Cambrian Coast Express made a brief comeback too)!

 

David

[Flood]

As David says the Clansman was downgraded in 1987 to run via Edinburgh (and split there to be a half length), the priority moved over to the HST formed Highland Chieftain.

 

In fact this coach listing in 1986 is very useful, by 1987 the Clansman was yet again formed of Mk 2 air con stock (BSO, 4 TSO, FK, RBR, 4 TSO, FK, BSO) and consists and photos of the Mk 3 rake are not easy to find.

[leopardml2341]

As David says the Clansman was downgraded in 1987 to run via Edinburgh (and split there to be a half length), the priority moved over to the HST formed Highland Chieftain.

 

In fact this coach listing in 1986 is very useful, by 1987 the Clansman was yet again formed of Mk 2 air con stock (BSO, 4 TSO, FK, RBR, 4 TSO, FK, BSO) and consists and photos of the Mk 3 rake are not easy to find.

 

IIRC weren't the 3 mark 3B BFOs (M17173-5) built (or converted) for the Clansman service ?

[Flood]

The Mk3B BFOs were new build in 1986. I've looked through the Coaching Commentary series in Rail Enthusiast from 1987 and they are not listed in the 20 WCML rakes for weekdays. To be honest I've never really known what they were built for and having never modelled the WCML I have never taken much interest.

 

Natalie Jones will know, I don't think there's anything she doesn't know about Mk3 loco hauled stock!

 

Edit: I've had a look on the B.R. Coaching Stock forum and Nat has written a pretty in depth piece on the BFOs.

 

To summarise they should have been the 125mph brakes for the HST-E trains but this was cancelled in 1984. They ran in the Glasgow section of the Clansman when delivered in 1986 (over 13 months late) but Robert Carroll could find no booked workings for them in the 1987-8 LMR marshalling book. In the late 1980s they spent most of their time on test trains including those with the BREL International coaches and the converted modular catering vehicles. By the Virgin era they were being used on the Manchester Pullman and they are now in use with FGW.

[leopardml2341]

Thanks for confirming that as I was sure I'd seen them on UP Clansman through Coventry at about that period - so I'm not losing the marbles as fast as I'd thought !

 

Rgds,

[Paulb1973]

I can recall the down Clansman reaching Coventry mid-to-late morning (10.30am to 11.30am-ish). I presume this was 'stop to pick-up only' Although it wasn't advertised [at Coventry] it did go onto call at Birmingham International, New Street & Wolverhampton? Don't recall seeing Mk3 coaches - but there were plenty of Mk2's.

[Flood]

On 11/11/2009 at 01:28, Paulb1973 said:

Don't recall seeing Mk3 coaches - but there were plenty of Mk2's.

 

That's the thing about the Clansman, as stated above it consisted of Mk3s in 1986-1987 and then went back to Mk2 air-cons again in the summer of 1987. Natalie Jones mentioned in her article of WCML trains on the BR Coaching Stock forum "It is possible that Mk3a stock was not actually used as I've yet to see a picture or hear a report of a sighting". The post above confirms the sighting and there is one photo of the stock at Inverness on flickr (see here). Even so accounts of Mk3s on the Clansman are rare and the train may well have only had them for one year.

 

I've also read a note recently about the RMB on the front of the rake and it only ran from Inverness to Perth on the up service and then back to Inverness on the down service. Now where on earth did I read that......

 

Found it. Natalie's WCML article again, phew.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Flood

[Flood]

Looking through Rail Enthusiasts (at ridiculous o'clock last night) I found a photo of the Clansman on the back cover of the February 1986 edition. Taken on 23 October 1985 it shows 47615 on Mk2 air-con stock (BFK, 5 TSOs, RBR, FK?, BG?). This would appear to confirm that the Mk3s only ran for one year.

[Mike H]

I used to be based in the North-West and used the Clansman a few times - the 1986 variant was probably the best Clansman service.

 

The set used for the 1986 "Mk3" Clansman was formed up of three half-sets.

 

Two half-sets were the Inverness portions, as discussed, formed:

 

NHA (110mph BG) + Mk3a FO + 5x Mk3a TSO

 

These worked the Inverness portions, and were always the "country end" of the train at Euston, and worked a two-day circuit, EUS-INV one day, INV-EUS the next.

 

The IS-based RMB, 1869, would work Inverness-Perth-Inverness, coupled to the "London end" of the train. Attaching the RMB to the down Clansman was done by the Perth-based 08 shunter when I last used this service, and there was no additional BG attached at Perth. I think the train engine performed the shunt to remove the RMB on the up working.

 

The other half-set was the Glasgow portion, formed:

 

3x Mk3a TSO + RFB + Mk3a/b FO + Mk3b BFO

 

This worked a one-day circuit EUS-GLC-EUS each day of operation.

 

The full rake was a 13 coach "monster" and probably one of the biggest day trains on the WCML at the time, if not the biggest (the PC-based Mk2 half-sets which worked the Glasgow/Edinburgh splitters usually being 11 or 12 coaches, usually variants of - 4xTSO+BFK+Buffet+BFK+4xTSO and the occasional BG).

 

The 1986 Clansman also deviated from the "Mk2 Clansman" variants because it was part of the main Euston-Glasgow 110mph services, therefore was routed via the Trent Valley and didn't serve Birmingham.

 

In terms of train operations, on the down, the full train ran to Carstairs, where it was split.

 

Then Inverness portion would be worked forward by the 87 which had brought the train from Euston, as far as Mossend, where a (usually IS-allocated) 47 would take over.

 

Back at Carstairs, another AC electric (whatever happened to be available at Carstairs) would attach to the front TSO of the Glasgow portion, and work it forward to Glasgow Central.

 

The 87 which had been released from the Inverness portion at Mossend would then work forward light engine to Glasgow Central, and then attach to the return Glasgow portion of up the Clansman to work it back to London.

 

The up Inverness portion, having shed the RMB (and occasional BG) at Perth, would be diesel worked through to Carstairs with no traction change happening, and would arrive in advance of the portion from Glasgow. The 47 would run round to be on the North end and then shunt the train clear of the platform, into the up siding used for attaching portions (so a bit like an Edinburgh portion, in that respect).

 

The portion ex-Glasgow would arrive in the platform with the 87 at the head. The 47 would then propel the Inverness portion onto the back of the Glasgow portion in the platform, before detatching, then the 87 would take the full consist back to Euston.

 

Hope people found this useful.

 

Mike

[Guest Phil]

Bloody ell Mike, what a pallava !!!

 

This had me thinking about another odd train - obviously from a couple of years later - DVT worked by this time. I believe it was a Glasgow - Euston which conveyed a couple of Motorail vans behind the loco on the rear - The DVT being at the sharp end of course. Which train was this ?

[Mike H]

Bloody ell Mike, what a pallava !!!

 

This had me thinking about another odd train - obviously from a couple of years later - DVT worked by this time. I believe it was a Glasgow - Euston which conveyed a couple of Motorail vans behind the loco on the rear - The DVT being at the sharp end of course. Which train was this ?

 

Indeed, I remember this working, but can't remember for the life of me which services actually conveyed the vans. Something like 14xx GLC-EUS "feels" right for the Southbound, where the consist was usually: DVT + 2xMk3a FO + MK3 RFB + 6x Mk3a TSO + 87/90 + 2/3x Motorail vans.

 

On the Northbound, the vans trailed behind the DVT, ISTR.

 

There was also a similar Carlisle working (something like 0945 EUS-CAR, running in front of the limited-stop "Royal Scot", which would catch it up by Carlisle) and a 15xx CAR-EUS return.

 

To go back to the Clansman for a moment, in it's final iteration, it conveyed Motorail vans for Edinburgh, before it became truncated into a EUS-EDB service, still carrying the Motorail vans, and then being scrapped with the end of the Motorail service.

 

With a bit of a search I've found a pic of the 1989 Clansman consist - on diversion via the S&C. Back to Mk2 aircons, the train consisted of two portions, one for Inverness, and as I recall, the other for Aberdeen? Due to the reversal at Preston to access the S&C, the Inverness portion has become the back of the train - it normally being at the front of the down workings.

 

By this point, the formation was:

 

Inverness: Mk2f BSO + 4x Mk2f TSO + Mk2f FO + Mk2f RFB (was originally an MK1 RBR when a Mk2 rake went back on the Clansman in 1987, replaced with the modular Mk2f car as these were converted - a number of the ICOBS crews preferred the old "gas cars", of course.)

 

Aberdeen (I think): Mk2f FO + 3x Mk2f TSO + Mk2f BSO (+ usually a BG as the picture shows)

 

The train would be split at Edinburgh.

 

The final formation of the Clansman, as far as I can tell, was this formation around 1991, before the service was truncated to terminate at Edinburgh. I think it only operated through to Inverness for this one year with this formation.

 

We're getting into "fixed-formation" territory here, so this was a fairly standard WCML Mk2 set, something like: NHA + 2x Mk2f FO + Mk3a RFM + 5x Mk2f TSO + Mk2f BSO

 

It didn't split anywhere, the whole train went through to Inverness, though it did convey Motorail vans for Edinburgh.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[edin_bry2x]

Guys

 

if you search fotopic at the moment for 'Inverness' you will come up with a load of photos from late 86/early 87 taken by a guy called Roddy. I have no link with this site just seen the Mk3 Clansman rakes sat in Inverness station and thought of this thread.

 

cheers

 

Bry

[Flood]

With a bit of a search I've found a pic of the 1989 Clansman consist - on diversion via the S&C. Back to Mk2 aircons, the train consisted of two portions, one for Inverness, and as I recall, the other for Aberdeen? Due to the reversal at Preston to access the S&C, the Inverness portion has become the back of the train - it normally being at the front of the down workings.

 

By this point, the formation was:

 

Inverness: Mk2f BSO + 4x Mk2f TSO + Mk2f FO + Mk2f RFB (was originally an MK1 RBR when a Mk2 rake went back on the Clansman in 1987, replaced with the modular Mk2f car as these were converted - a number of the ICOBS crews preferred the old "gas cars", of course.)

 

Aberdeen (I think): Mk2f FO + 3x Mk2f TSO + Mk2f BSO (+ usually a BG as the picture shows)

 

The train would be split at Edinburgh.

From May 1987 to May 1988 the rake split at Edinburgh and then only had an Inverness portion going forward, the rest stayed at Edinburgh. From May 1988 the other portion went on to Aberdeen as you've said so you had the strange concept at Haymarket in the morning of two trains arriving from the North to go to Edinburgh only to return about 30 mins later, as one train, to go to Carstairs. Of course the reverse happened in the afternoon: one train arrived from Carstairs to go to Edinburgh and about 30 min later two trains, within 5 mins of each other, being formed from the one train went up to either Aberdeen via Dundee or Inverness via Perth.

 

For 1987 the booked formation was Mk2 air con BSO + 4x Mk2 air con TSO + Mk2d FK + RBR + Mk2d FK + 4x Mk2 air con TSO + Mk2 air con BSO with the RBR going to Inverness but naturally variations did occur. Whether the first class coaches in that 1989 photo are FKs or if they had been replaced by FOs by then I really couldn't say.

 

All in all a very interesting train over the years.

 

 

Edit (over a year later!). From the summer of 1988 I'd noticed that an RMBT had started to be used instead of the RBR. Looking at the coach allocations, this (and the allocation of BSOs) confirmed that the Clansman went from being a Longsight rake to one from Wembley. This in turn proved that the FKs were replaced by FOs as Wembley had no allocation of FKs at that time.

[Bomag]

I used to be based in the North-West and used the Clansman a few times - the 1986 variant was probably the best Clansman service.

 

In terms of train operations, on the down, the full train ran to Carstairs, where it was split.

 

Then Inverness portion would be worked forward by the 87 which had brought the train from Euston, as far as Mossend, where a (usually IS-allocated) 47 would take over.

 

Back at Carstairs, another AC electric (whatever happened to be available at Carstairs) would attach to the front TSO of the Glasgow portion, and work it forward to Glasgow Central.

 

The 87 which had been released from the Inverness portion at Mossend would then work forward light engine to Glasgow Central, and then attach to the return Glasgow portion of up the Clansman to work it back to London.

 

The up Inverness portion, having shed the RMB (and occasional BG) at Perth, would be diesel worked through to Carstairs with no traction change happening, and would arrive in advance of the portion from Glasgow. The 47 would run round to be on the North end and then shunt the train clear of the platform, into the up siding used for attaching portions (so a bit like an Edinburgh portion, in that respect).

 

The portion ex-Glasgow would arrive in the platform with the 87 at the head. The 47 would then propel the Inverness portion onto the back of the Glasgow portion in the platform, before detatching, then the 87 would take the full consist back to Euston.

 

Hope people found this useful.

 

Mike

 

In February 1987 I used one of the student flat rate saver deals to do the whole Euston to Inverness trip one Saturday. I cannot read the date in my notebooks but it was just after a gale and the train was diverted via Northampton and Bescot as the wires were down. We were so late that the stock split was undertaken at Motherwell - the southbound stock had already arrived. The 47/4 (probably 593 Galloway Princess) was swapped at the station rather than at Mossend. The rear portion was going straight back to Euston - Glasgow passengers had to use the local service!

 

After attaching the RMB at Perth and an extend wait at Kingcraig we were cutting it close for the SB sleeper (when we had Saturday night sleepers) - luckily we had the rostered guard and driver of sleeper!

 

Does anybody know if the BFOs were delivered in Executive or Swallow livery?

[PrestburyJack]

I can recall the down Clansman reaching Coventry mid-to-late morning (10.30am to 11.30am-ish). I presume this was 'stop to pick-up only' Although it wasn't advertised [at Coventry] it did go onto call at Birmingham International, New Street & Wolverhampton? Don't recall seeing Mk3 coaches - but there were plenty of Mk2's.

 

IIRC it was 10:44 hrs at Coventry - I was always impressed as a teenager that you could get a through train from my home town to Inverness - only wish I'd been old enough and had enough money to do the trip.

[Flood]

Does anybody know if the BFOs were delivered in Executive or Swallow livery?

Executive. Swallow wasn't introduced until July 1987.

 

See here.

[tiger]

During its final year of operation (?1990), the Clansman stock was further downgraded to mainly non-aircon Mk 2c TSOs still in blue/grey. This train was obviously no longer regarded as a flagship InterCity service! When the ECML electrification went live in 1991, the resulting cascade of HST's enabled the remaining Mk 2d FK and BFK, and the remaining non aircon Mk 2c stock being used by InterCity sector, to be withdrawn. By then the Clansman was truncated in Edinburgh but still went through to Inverness in peak seasons - e.g. Christmas. As MIchael states, the train would use a standard WCML fixed-formation rake. I'm sure these were sometimes formed entirely of Mk 3 stock and I also believe they also included the Mk 3 DVT - a long way from their usual territory up in the Scottish Highlands!

 

Cheers,

 

Tom.

 

 

The final formation of the Clansman, as far as I can tell, was this formation around 1991, before the service was truncated to terminate at Edinburgh. I think it only operated through to Inverness for this one year with this formation.

 

We're getting into "fixed-formation" territory here, so this was a fairly standard WCML Mk2 set, something like: NHA + 2x Mk2f FO + Mk3a RFM + 5x Mk2f TSO + Mk2f BSO

 

It didn't split anywhere, the whole train went through to Inverness, though it did convey Motorail vans for Edinburgh.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[ThaneofFife]

I remember taking the good old "Clansman" in its early years if thats suitable to this discussion......

 

There does seem to be many fading memories about Euston departure times but as far I can recall circa 1982/83 departure from Bham New Street was around 11.16am (actual timetables from the period will nail the exact times for sure) so by my reckoning that equates to something like 9.35 off Euston and that ties in with the aforementioned 10.44 time off Coventry. Not a bad blast from Euston to Coventry with 13 coaches (560 tons?) and I believe stops at Watford and Rugby.

 

Back then the whole train went to Inverness - there was none of the shenanigans mentioned above such as removing buffet cars or splitting portions or running round - it was simple and straight forward. 87 under the wires Euston to Mossend yard where the usual 47 would go forward to IS. The up train was exactly the same set up. I must have travelled on The Clansman at least 3 times at least in the Down and once in the Up. Always enjoyed the loco change over at Mossend.

 

Finding photos of this train anywhere along the WCML is not easy but I am yet to find any photographs at all taken during the loco change at Mossend and that is a great shame. I dare say there is no video footage anywhere of this event and for that we have to thank the lack of cheap hi-technology back then.

Edited October 17, 2012 by ThaneofFife

[GordonC]

IIRC weren't the 3 mark 3B BFOs (M17173-5) built (or converted) for the Clansman service ?

 

Were the Mark 3b BFOs really built for the Clansman service?

 

I wouldn't really have thought there was much call for 125mph running even on the WCML in those days that a Mark 1 BG or Mark 2d BSO/BFK couldn't have coped with. And north of the WCML speeds would have been even slower.

[leopardml2341]

Were the Mark 3b BFOs really built for the Clansman service?

 

I wouldn't really have thought there was much call for 125mph running even on the WCML in those days that a Mark 1 BG or Mark 2d BSO/BFK couldn't have coped with. And north of the WCML speeds would have been even slower.

Post #6 above clarifies this. ☺

[westie7]

Been researching the Inverness-Euston Clansman and found this thread amongst a few others on RMWeb.

Some of my other useful sources have been "WJ Verden Andersons" books, Scotlands Railways & Diesels in Scotland.

 

I picked out some info from the photos in these books and made some notes, I'll share them here in case they are any use to anyone. 

 

Jul 84

47527 Blue

5x Mk3a SO B/g

1x Mk1 Catering B/g

2x Mk3a F/SO? B/g

 

Autumn 85         

47517 LLB  

1x Mk2d BFK IC,

4x Mk2f B/g,

1x Mk1 Catering B/g,

1x Mk3a FO B/g,

2x Mk2 AirCon B/g,

1x Mk2 b/c B/g,

1x Mk2 Aircon B/g

 

Autumn 86

47549 IC

1x Mk1 BG B/g

1x Mk1 Catering IC

6x Mk3a SO IC

1x Mk2 Aircon Brake IC

 

May 86      

47562 Blue        

1x Mk1 BG B/g,

1x Mk1 RMB IC,

5x Mk3a SO IC,

1x Mk3a FO IC,

1x Mk1 Uid IC

 

Spring 87

47629 LLB

1x Mk1 BG B/g

1x Mk1 Catering IC

6x Mk3a SO IC

1x Mk2 Brake

 

May 87      

47706 ScR

1x Mk1 BG B/g,

1x Mk1 RMB B/g,

6x Mk3a IC

Edited April 13, 2017 by westie7

[bigP]

--

Edited February 1, 2021 by bigP
Deleted

[adb968008]

December 29th 1990 The Clansman looked like this...

 

37262+47550+ BG+ 2xFO+ RMB+ 6xTSO +1GUV

 

 

 

And this was an interesting combination, apologies for the poor picture, but you will note the 2nd car of this 156 is not what it seems, (your going to need to zoom in, to see the mismatched body profiles), it is actually 52492+ 527020split from 156492, 158720 in this instance.

 

The new 158’s struggled with Winter 1990, not having snowploughs, so hybrid 156/158 were made up, and required turning at Inverness.

Edited December 10, 2022 by adb968008