GWR Oil Burners

[81E]

Dear All,

 

Please can someone help? I am hoping to convert a Hornby 28XX into a 48XX oil burner (number 4800). Firstly have I got the right number! I'm guessing that it may have been 2872 as I read somewhere that this was the first but this is not that important.

 

Secondly would 4800 have carried unlined GWR black? Several of these locos seem to show a similar density of grey between the smokebox and boiler while others suggest a lighter boiler colour.

 

Thirdly were these locos still "blue" route availability.

[The Fatadder]

Will be interested to see what info turns up on colour,

 

One day I would like to make a model of the oil burning Castle 5091, while it was out shopped originally with a 3500 tender, apparently in mid 1947 it had gained a 4000gl tender. So far so simple, what makes it interesting to me is a mention in GWRJ no7 that this 4000gl tender was painted black while the loco was in green.

 

Ive never found a photo showing this, but if other oil burners were still in black it would add providence to the GWRJ claim

[M.I.B]

It wouldn't be the first engine to be paired with a tender of the opposite colour.  

 

There is a photo on here of 6944 with a lined green tender taken at Didcot.

[eastglosmog]

Hi 81E - I see you found my query on this topic, posted last year!  Afraid I have not found any definitive answer to the question of the axle loads.  I suspect the issue was of little importance at the time, with the limited refueling points effectively restricting the oil burners to red routes anyway. 

[JimC]

Firstly have I got the right number!

2872 -> 4800

2854 -> 4801

2862 -> 4802

were the first 3 according to RCTS.

You'd think the conversion would have involved a boiler change. If so its hard to believe they weren't repainted. The random selection of numbers also suggests they just picked locomotives getting a heavy overhaul anyway, which again would be repainted. However if anyone knows for sure speak up!

The tender is recorded as being 45 tons 6cwt in RCTS, which would be well within blue limits I believe.

[eastglosmog]

I've just been looking at a picture of 2872 just after conversion (in "The GWR Exposed" by J Clements, OPC 2015, ISBN 978 0 86093 666 4) and before renumbering.  There appears to be a definite difference in tone between the boiler, cab and tender side compared to the valances and smoke box.  It looks as though both loco and tender were in unlined green.  There is a route classification dot on the cabside, but I cannot tell whether it is blue or red.  There is also a picture of 4807 (ex 2848) in service which also looks to be unlined green. On the other hand, the picture of 4850 (ex 3813) is more ambiguous and could be black all over - but she was of the heavier 2884 class, not a 28xx.

According to the book, modifications were restricted to the firebox, backplate and tender, there were no significant modifications to the boiler.

One other point which I have noticed from the photographs is that if you are intending to convert the Hornby 28xx to an oil burner, then 4807/2848 would be a better subject as it had external steam pipes and 2872 did not (at least not in 1946).  Hope this helps.

[Coach bogie]

I continue to collect information on the oil firing project and managed to buy these two images which show good detail of the front of the small tenders.

 

 

I still cannot find any images of 5091 in traffic with the small tender, only the images taken at Swindon.It is a possibility that this shot was taken for publicity purposes only and theat 5091 was sent out with a 4,000 gallon tender....unless anyone has an image with the small tender. Still hoping.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[eastglosmog]

Those are fascinating photo's Mike, and not just for the detail of the oil gear on the Tender!

[M.I.B]

You'd think the conversion would have involved a boiler change. 

 

The boilers were not changed.  Same boiler, different method of heating inside the same firebox.

 

Most of the work was done to the tenders.

 

But don't forget to add the sliding shutters on the cab sides.  

 

Mike's photos are excellent for tender detail and also shutter detail too.

[eastglosmog]

The boilers were not changed.  Same boiler, different method of heating inside the same firebox.

 

Most of the work was done to the tenders.

 

But don't forget to add the sliding shutters on the cab sides.  

 

Mike's photos are excellent for tender detail and also shutter detail too.

Curiously, when first converted, 2872 did not have a sliding shutter.  Must have been changed at some time before Mike's photo of it as 4800 was taken.

[rodent279]

I happen to have recently come across a small booklet, in some of dad's railway papers, titled "Conversion of Locomotives from Coal to Oil Burning". It's reprinted from articles on the Railway Gazette of Jan 18th, Aug 16th & Aug 30th,1946.

It's 8 pages long, and has a fairly detailed description of the Ministry of Transport plan to convert 1217(!) locos, and the GWR oil burning equipment is fully described, wth several drawings and photos.

I'd scan it in and post here, but not sure where I stand with regard to copyright. If anyone can advise, I'd be grateful.

[JimC]

but not sure where I stand with regard to copyright. If anyone can advise, I'd be grateful.

What does it say on the title page about authorship etc? Its almost certain copyright applies, and the exceptions aren't nearly as broad as many people here like to think.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm pretty sure that as it's over 70 years it is out of copyright. But if it's government material it might be different.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Fatadder]

Hopefully it is ok, sounds very interesting to see

[rodent279]

Here is a scan of the front cover of the doc:-

 

 

Regarding the OP, there is a picture of 2872, freshly modified, still numbered 2872, and it looks like it's in GW green-there is a distinct difference in shade between the smokebox & boiler cladding. It has GWR on the tender. At this point, it does not have the sliding shutters on the cabside fitted.

[Fat Controller]

What was the reason behind the cab-side shutters? I can appreciate that, during wartime, they had made fire-box glow less visible to enemy aircraft. However, the war had finished, and the nature of oil-firing meant there was no reason to open the fire-box door when running.

[rodent279]

What was the reason behind the cab-side shutters? I can appreciate that, during wartime, they had made fire-box glow less visible to enemy aircraft. However, the war had finished, and the nature of oil-firing meant there was no reason to open the fire-box door when running.

I have looked through the document, there is no mention of the sliding shutters at all. I guess they were a later addition, the pamphlet is dated 1946, and is a reprint of articles in the Railway Gazette from that year.

[eastglosmog]

Here is a scan of the front cover of the doc:-

 

Oil_Burning_doc_IMG_20180614_0006.gif

 

Regarding the OP, there is a picture of 2872, freshly modified, still numbered 2872, and it looks like it's in GW green-there is a distinct difference in shade between the smokebox & boiler cladding. It has GWR on the tender. At this point, it does not have the sliding shutters on the cabside fitted.

That would be the same photo as appears in J Clements book, see my post #56 up the thread.

[JimC]

No real clues there. The smart money is its still in copyright.

[M.I.B]

What was the reason behind the cab-side shutters? I can appreciate that, during wartime, they had made fire-box glow less visible to enemy aircraft. However, the war had finished, and the nature of oil-firing meant there was no reason to open the fire-box door when running.

 

Its to do with draughts and boiler lighting I believe.  Once lit they wouldn't be needed because the fire box door wouldn't need to be opened.

[eastglosmog]

Whatever the reason for cab side shutters being fitted by the GWR, even going to the extent of retrofitting 4800, the Southern did not see a need to fit them.  I haven't seen any pictures of SR converted locos fitted with shutters.

Just speculation, but possibly it had to do with reducing drafts to minimize heat loss in the oil supply pipe and stop the oil coagulating in the pipe. 

PS MIB, sorry didn't see your post - you must have put it up whilst I was writing mine.

[The Johnster]

I can't imagine that the relatively small additional area of cab opening that was covered by the sliding shutters made much difference to the draught inside the cab while lighting up, but I am happy to be corrected on this matter.  Shutters were provided on tank locos as extra weather protection, outside the cabs on prairies and 56xx but inside on panniers, the cabs being quite exposed to side winds especially when standing, and it may well be that a similar situation existed on the oil fired tender locos, where the temperature in the cab would have been noticeably less than on a coal fired loco in any given situation.  This would have been a benefit in warm weather, but less so in winter; remember that the winter of 1947 was an exceptionally cold and long one, and not being able to open the firedoor on a standing loco would have been a major discomfort to the crew, and a shutter to shelter from the wind behind would have been very welcome!

[rodent279]

No real clues there. The smart money is its still in copyright.

Copyright seems to apply for 70yrs after the author's death. There is no author named on this doc, other than "The Railway Gazette", and if they are considered "the author", then since they are still a going concern, I assume copyright still applies. I'm playing safe here.

When I've got time, I'll summarise in my own words, but that'll be a while yet.

[81E]

Below is a Hornby GWR 28XX tender fitted with my Stafford Road Model Works tank for GWR Oil Burning Locomotives which I have just finished.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/JVD7QQHSF/gwr-28xx-2884-tank-for-oil-burning-tender?optionId=68436463

 

The tank is a simple swap for the coal as fitted to the later Hornby 28XX and 2884 Class 2-6-0s

 

[The Stationmaster]

Its to do with draughts and boiler lighting I believe.  Once lit they wouldn't be needed because the fire box door wouldn't need to be opened.

 

The shutters were only closed (or supposed to be closed?) when lighting up according to those I knew who had had the dubious pleasure of working on the GWR oil burners   Dubious because they were regarded as dirty engines to work on and didn't steam well if the burners were dirty or out of adjustment.