m davies Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hi, following the conversation in Brians 7mm thread I've started a thread on its own about class 47 fronts and windscreens, feel free to wade in, post views, information and anything other y'all think relevant. Not sure if the thread should reside in this forum, I suppose it is of some help to model builders. Also any class 56 info as well as they use virtually the same windscreen and cab shape from Brush. To kick off I have taken the two images from the thread and transposed them to show the differences, its very difficult to see them as Box Brownie has made an excellent cross reference image it almost fits perfectly, but there are differences and you can see where it feels just out of sorts. Image 1 shows almost 100% opacity on the model over the real thing Image 2 shows 50% opacity on the model image Image 2 shows 30% opacity. I think the corner fillets are too small a radius on the model and that there is too much metal work above the screen, there also appears to be no radius to the top edge, it should match the lower one IMHO. Actually I think simply moving the cab gutter down a fraction would cover most aspects. Ejoy and please feel free to dive in. Special thanks to Mr Ford for the Stratford image. Best Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here is another one for taken at Manchester Piccadilly one sunday morning when the juice was off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m davies Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Couple from my collection. 47 270 as it transited through the Port to the scrap yard with original screen surrounds, have to admit from this angle the top looks pretty straight?. 57 003 at Stowmarket showing the new screens with straight edges. 47 790 at Ipswich when the wires came down, original screen but note the depressed gutter over the windscreen, there is quite a pronounced dip in the corners, possibly to do with lowering when the cab aerial was fitted?. Enjoy Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here's 47105: With the picture of 47790, the orange cantrail stripe has been applied beneath the roof gutter. Normally, the gutter itself would be painted orange. This may explain the 'compressed' appearance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here is another one for taken at Manchester Piccadilly one sunday morning when the juice was off. You can almost feel the heat from the sun and smell the fumes in that photo, very evocative! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 15, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2011 Attached is a shot of my 7mm Heljan 47. Boy photography is harsh! I've attempted the reshape the windows rather crudely when I was trying to see if this made any difference. I've painted this insides black and not yet tidied up the yellow which is partly why it all looks ragged and the various hand rails are only part done as well. You can see the general idea though. What everyone can live with is totally personal but for me there's enough here to suggest that the correctly shaped etched window frame overlay would be an improvement. As others have said, it may also be that the gutter doesn't curve down quite enough towards the edges and the outside top corner of the windows is possibly therefore too high as well, making the whole front look rather straight across the top. Again an etch would correct the window shape for this but I'm not sure I'd attempt to move the gutter personally. If anyone can overlay this on a real one that would be very useful or alternatively work out how to scale down the real windows so we can try and get an etch! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2011 If anyone can overlay this on a real one that would be very useful or alternatively work out how to scale down the real windows so we can try and get an etch! A scale 7mm etch will very shortly be available in the Extreme Etchings range, test etches are available and when overlaid onto the Heljan 47 show "somewhat of a discrepancy". The 4mm frame and Laserglaze glazing is available for the ViTrains model and will be rolled out across the rest of the 4mm range shortly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2011 A scale 7mm etch will very shortly be available in the Extreme Etchings range, test etches are available and when overlaid onto the Heljan 47 show "somewhat of a discrepancy". The 4mm frame and Laserglaze glazing is available for the ViTrains model and will be rolled out across the rest of the 4mm range shortly. Thats always assuming the etches are more accurate than the Heljan research! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2011 If anyone can overlay this on a real one that would be very useful or alternatively work out how to scale down the real windows so we can try and get an etch! Unfortunately this picture and the previous prototype picture are at quite different perspectives and cannot be overlaid for a comparison (I just tried it), it took me about 30 minutes in the studio with the camera on a vertical stand to get the angle correct for a true perspective match with my model and the Stratford picture. It helps to have something in the pictures background to gain a perspective angle, alas with a full front view this is almost impossible.....unless we can establish how far above ground the picture was taken and transfer that to the model scale......might take more than 30 minutes though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The picture of '105 was taken whilst stood on a sleeper with the camera held at about the same level as the headcode box so ... about 7 feet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2011 I wasn't actually being serious about overlaying photos! I'm incredibly impressed at the previous effort. It is remarkable how subtle changes in angles can make a surprisingly big difference and in some photos of the real thing, the top and even bottom of the windows can look dead straight but there are enough other shots around, let alone spare panes of glass (!), to know that this isn't actually the case. I suspect this is why the model looks more convincing from some angles and not quite as good from others. I'm looking forward to those etches now to see if they do the trick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Piszczek Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Thats always assuming the etches are more accurate than the Heljan research! There are a lot of crap etches out there, some of the older stuff from various sources is absolutely despicable! I don't know that I'd say that about some of the newer etchings, especially the Extreme Etchings. There has been some serious work involved in that range and you laughter is wholly undeserved.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted February 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2011 There are a lot of crap etches out there, some of the older stuff from various sources is absolutely despicable! I don't know that I'd say that about some of the newer etchings, especially the Extreme Etchings. There has been some serious work involved in that range and you laughter is wholly undeserved.... Lighten up.........I was laughing along with the general comment....not at the quality of the etches.....jeez...some people! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
briz1234 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Attached is a shot of my 7mm Heljan 47. Boy photography is harsh! I've attempted the reshape the windows rather crudely when I was trying to see if this made any difference. I've painted this insides black and not yet tidied up the yellow which is partly why it all looks ragged and the various hand rails are only part done as well. You can see the general idea though. What everyone can live with is totally personal but for me there's enough here to suggest that the correctly shaped etched window frame overlay would be an improvement. As others have said, it may also be that the gutter doesn't curve down quite enough towards the edges and the outside top corner of the windows is possibly therefore too high as well, making the whole front look rather straight across the top. Again an etch would correct the window shape for this but I'm not sure I'd attempt to move the gutter personally. If anyone can overlay this on a real one that would be very useful or alternatively work out how to scale down the real windows so we can try and get an etch! The Class 47 Cab window frames are actually quite a complex shape, being trapizoidal with a gentle radius top and bottom.. and are a fair bit different to the Class 56.. Unfortunately all a scale etch for the frames does is to highlight just how far out the entire cab front is on the Heljan 7mm 47.. I have now got scale (original style) frames in both 4 and 7mm and whilst the 4mm version fits quite nicely to most of the current models (the Bachmann one is spot on!.. ) the 7mm frames are nearly the same width as the outside dimension of the windscreen pillars!.. I'll try to get some pic's tomorrow later!.. The headcode box is also rather an odd shape too.. the original is wider (50") and shallower (19.75") than Heljan have portayed it!.. I've just done all the variations of plated headcodes specifically to fit the 7mm Heljan (marker lights with rubber gromets/clear lens type/one of each end type and lens surrounds only for flush front loco's) Cheers Brian (Extreme Etchings/Shawplan ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Here is a picture of one of our spare windscreens that goes some way to describe what Brian just said about their complex shape: I did take some rough measurements but ran out of time to scribble them down. Consider the shape in relation to the floorboards though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I assume the bottom right corner would be the top centre corner when fitted? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2011 Unfortunately all a scale etch for the frames does is to highlight just how far out the entire cab front is on the Heljan 7mm 47.. I have now got scale (original style) frames in both 4 and 7mm and whilst the 4mm version fits quite nicely to most of the current models (the Bachmann one is spot on!.. ) the 7mm frames are nearly the same width as the outside dimension of the windscreen pillars!.. I'll try to get some pic's tomorrow later!.. Will be very interesting to see! Is there any intention to produce compromise frames instead that are at least the right approximate shape (ie more curvy) but re-proportioned enough to fit? I would think if many people can live with the other short comings, eg bogies etc, they are generally trying to get something that looks acceptable rather than 100% accurate and so any improvement is still worth having? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I assume the bottom right corner would be the top centre corner when fitted? I'm pretty sure that the bottom left corner in the photo would be top left on the secondman's side when fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I must confess that I'm surprised that glass is the shape that it is, I'd have thought the shape would have been much simpler for ease of manufacture! Perhaps that's why the windscreens of 47's are so hard to capture, especially if the model designer has in their mind that the glass wouldn't be such a complex shape, when designing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m davies Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 The Class 47 Cab window frames are actually quite a complex shape, being trapizoidal with a gentle radius top and bottom.. and are a fair bit different to the Class 56.. I bow to your research but are the Class 56 really that different?, I know the Romanian ones look slighlty different but I thought the Crewe and Doncaster builds were almost identical, most of the cab structure (not items like head codes, lights etc)is pretty much identical, even down to the crash pillars internally, floor decking and understructure shape, my understanding is that most of the 56 was taken from the Brush 47. Sadly I do not have head on shot of a Class 56 windscreen to compare with a standard class 47, I took some detaild photos a couple of times up at Nene valley where they were refurbing some for TOCs but alas no cab head on shot. The shot of the class 47 windscreen glass shows perfectly the curved upper edge, though not as curved as the lower edge, excellent photo, orientation wise this is the second mans screen, the spot on the window being the screen heater connection which is on the outer edges of the screen on the loco, so nearest is the corner piller, furthest is the center piller, top is to the left, bottom to the right. Best Micael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The shot of the class 47 windscreen glass shows perfectly the curved upper edge, though not as curved as the lower edge, excellent photo, orientation wise it looks to be taken fron the centar piller end, the spot on the window being the screen heater connection I think, which is in the center of the loco, top is to the left, bottom to the right. I'm not so sure about that.... I didn't consider which way round it was when I took the photo but have a look at the photo of '105 above. The dot is outside edge, secondman's side. There is no demister that side if I remember correctly.You can see the metallic strips of the demisters on the driver's side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted February 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2011 Ok chaps, I've widened the windows, widened the headcode and lowered gutter. Pity its only in photoshop To be honest I'm getting less and less convinced this is going anywhere. Might just keep badgering JLTRT... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixie Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 There was also some slight variations between the cabs. Some had the hinges on the tail lights at 12 and 6 o'clock, whilst others had them at 3 and 9 o'clock. Also the 'eyebrow' lip above the windscreen and below the wiper mounts meets sometimes meets and other times has a gap where it flattens out. Compare http://www.class47.c...g=1158051141211 and http://www.class47.c...g=1151051054211 . I had thought that this was depending on where they were built but I'm not sure, it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag. Rivet countery but I thought I'd throw it in! Christ, I need to get out more. Pix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted February 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2011 Pix.....well at least we know now the Heljan is Crewe built I wonder if the etches will be Crewe or Loughborough? There is a 47 down the road at my local preserved line.....might be worth a trip, here we go again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixie Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hey David, Watch out - I've edited my post. I'd originally thought that Brush had 3/9 tail light hinges and the meeting eyebrows (monobrow?), while Crewe ones has the hinges at 12/6 and a divided line. However that photo of 47370 above has thrown a spanner in that plan as it seems to have a meeting eyebrow and 12/6 hinges... I'll do some digging and report back! Pix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.