gwrman Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hi could anyone one help in finding the following info the Liveries of B sets in the early BR era and Western Region coach numbers for them. Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Do you want all of them, or do you have a specific diagram in mind? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrman Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Do you want all of them, or do you have a specific diagram in mind? Nick Hi Nick, it's for diagram 98 as seen hear:- JLTRT Nigel B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Something rather odd here! If Russell and Harris are to be believed (and they usually are) D98 was a six compartment non-corridor bow ended brake third. Built in two lots, 1377 in 1927, numbered 4945-84 and 1389 in 1928, numbered 5501-16. The one in the picture on the JLTRT site looks more like a D95. These were also built in two lots, 1375 in 1927 numbered 4913-44 and 1384 in 1928 numbered 5087-5132. Unfortunately, Russell says that both lots included left and right handed vans but neither source distinguishes between the numbers of these. Nick edit: just noticed the little picture at the bottom of the web page showing one in BR carmine red. That one does look like a D98, so I assume they've got their photos mixed up. edit 2: you asked about liveries. I assume (others may know better) they would have been painted in carmine red from 1949 onwards, though a photo of 4972 in 1952 shows it with lining just below the windows. Numbers would have been like W4972 towards the left hand at this date. Quite soon after this, I would expect it to have been renumbered W4972W towards the right hand end. I assume it may have lost its lining at the same time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrman Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hi, this is the link for the R/H B SET coach :- JLTRT, correct picture. Has anyone built one of the kits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Nigel, a B set as we know it consist of two brake composites. These were built from the 1920s to the 1950s. Before that the "typical" branch line train would have been assorted four and/or six wheelers, says he grossly over-simplifying. The JTLRT kit is for a brake third so isn't a B set coach. There were nine different types of brake composite formed into B sets. The one that everybody knows thanks to Airfix and their successors is the most common, diagram E140 with 7 ft wb bogies and E145 with 9 ft wb bogies. The D98s worked in four coach sets with E131 composites, mostly in the Birmingham division, but in the 1950s the sets got broken up, reformed and dispersed so, as with all things GW, nothing is straighforward! There is a partly complete list of B set allocations somewhere on the web. I will see if I can find it when I get back from Nottingham tomorrow. Chris Edit - Karhedron has posted the answer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 As others have said, Crimson in the early BR period and repainted into Maroon from ~1957 onwards. Running numbers can be found in the files section of the GWR-elist yahoogroup which is easy to join. PM me if you have any problems. Here is my N gauge B-set which I repainted and numbered up as set from the Bristol division. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Nigel, a B set as we know it consist of two brake composites. These were built from the 1920s to the 1950s. Before that the "typical" branch line train would have been assorted four and/or six wheelers, says he grossly over-simplifying. The JTLRT kit is for a brake third so isn't a B set coach. There were nine different types of brake composite formed into B sets. The one that everybody knows thanks to Airfix and their successors is the most common, diagram E140 with 7 ft wb bogies and E145 with 9 ft wb bogies. The D98s worked in four coach sets with E131 composites, mostly in the Birmingham division, but in the 1950s the sets got broken up, reformed and dispersed so, as with all things GW, nothing is straighforward! I have a sneaking suspicion that the Birmingham Division referred to its 4-car sets as B-sets. The term 'B-set' (or any other letter-sets) often had different meanings in different Divisions, or even the same division at a different time. You'd think they did it deliberately to confuse us... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted March 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 20, 2011 At some point I need to look into the correct type of B Set for Padstow-Bodmin services. I must admit, not really knowing much about the WR, that I thought that there was a standard diagram of coach used. You can thank Airfix for that! Anyway it looks as though the subject is as complicated as the SR 2-set Ps. Thread bookmarked for future reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Chris, look no further than the Cornish Special issue of GWR Journal where the subject is covered in an article by John Lewis. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted March 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 20, 2011 There is some good information on B-Sets if you are a member of the GWR yahoo group link here most is in the files section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 As a mere 4mm modeller, all I know about JLTRT has been gained from following some quite outstanding build threads here on RMweb. Now, I can understand the simple error of putting the wrong photo on their web pages, but why would they describe a D98 as a B-set? Indeed, they claim to supply both a left and right hand van version which, as I understand it, has no meaning at all in a non-corridor coach. Is it possible that some pairs of D98s ran as a form of B-set, perhaps in the later 1950s or 60s? I have a sneaking suspicion that the Birmingham Division referred to its 4-car sets as B-sets. The term 'B-set' (or any other letter-sets) often had different meanings in different Divisions, or even the same division at a different time. You'd think they did it deliberately to confuse us... So what actually is a B-set? I've always understood, as chrisf has said, that they were usually pairs of brake composites built specifically to run in this form. However, I'm sure I have seen photos of other pairings labelled (perhaps incorectly) as B-sets and have seen three coach sets labelled as C-sets. I'd assumed that perhaps A,B,C,D might simply correspond to 1,2,3,4 as the number of vehicles in the set, but have never seen this stated. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2011 So what actually is a B-set? I've always understood, as chrisf has said, that they were usually pairs of brake composites built specifically to run in this form. However, I'm sure I have seen photos of other pairings labelled (perhaps incorectly) as B-sets and have seen three coach sets labelled as C-sets. I'd assumed that perhaps A,B,C,D might simply correspond to 1,2,3,4 as the number of vehicles in the set, but have never seen this stated. Nick To quote direct from the July 1937 London Division 'Working of Coaches .. etc and Gas Tanks' notice the following Stanarda Formations applied (unless shown otherwise all coaches are to be regarded as 8 wheeled) 4 Coach A Set Electric Lighting : Van 3rd (6 compts), First (8 compts), Third (9 compts), Van 3rd (6 compts). 5 coach A Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, First, Third, Van 3rd B Set Electric Lighting : Brk Compo, Brk Compo (Brake Compos to have one 1st and 5 x 3rd compartments in each coach) C Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, First, Lav Compo, Van 3rd D Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Compo, Compo, Van 3rd E Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, First, Third, Van 3rd G Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, Compo (3), Van. H Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Lav Compo, Van 3rd Note these are described as 'Standard Formations' but I'm not at all sure if they applied Company wide (I have an Exeter Division Notice tucked away somewhere but not able to check it at present). However further formations are shown in the London Division Notice which are different from the above with but with very similar names, for instance there was 'Six Coach Local "C" trains (8 wheeled stock)' which from their workings were obviously 'City' stock and they were formed - Van 3rd, Third, Compo, Compo, Third, Van 3rd. And 'London four-Coach Suburban Trains' (Electric Lighting) which were formed Van Third, Compo, Compo, Van Third. While 'London Foor-Coach "A" Sets' were formed as the A Sets shown above. Then there were the 'Short Branch Trains' - a Brake Compo + a Third for Windsor; 2 x Brake Compo + a '4 First Compts, 12 Third Compts' for Henley plus a single additional Van 3rd for use as required; and 2 x B sets for Fairford And here's hoping I've copied it all accurately! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks for that, Mike. It certainly clears up my confusion. So, it seems we now need evidence for Richard's suggestion that the D98-E131-E131-D98 sets in the Birmingham division might have been known locally as B-sets. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Evidence there is, in an article in GWJ issue 5: "Birmingham Division Suburban Trains" by John Lewis, which I have rediscovered this evening. The process of replacing four wheelers with bogie coaches began in 1911 when four "new local coupled trains" were introduced. By 1922 there were up to 12 such sets referred to as "D" sets. More stock was introduced in the 20s and 30s and by 1937 official documents began to differentiate between types of stock. The first four sets, formed of 70 ft toplight stock, were called A sets. The three five coach sets were designated C stock, leaving the other 48 sets which were called B sets. Now the really important bit: "In the West Country, the familiar pairs of non-corridor brake composites were, of course, known as 'B sets', but not in the Midlands, where they assumed the title of 'D sets'." Pete Waterman is modelling Leamington Spa and owns JLTRT. Ergo, he calls the 4-coach suburban sets B sets, which in that neck of the woods they were. We are all a lot wiser now and I can't help feeling that I owe Nigel GWRman an apology for sompounding the confusion. What I don't know is what description was given to the sets formed in the 1950s comprising third, brake third, composite and replacing the 4-coach sets. These were not entirely swept away by the arrival of the dmus in 1957. In London there were changes after the outbreak of war. The Local C sets [9 of them] remained but the other stock was formed into five coach sets known as 'Q sets'. During the war first class was abolished but after the end of hostilities the sets were formed brake third, third, composite, third, brake third, augmented as necessary by loose thirds. They lasted unti lafter the arrival of the dmus in 1960. Before the war some full firsts were in use in London but were declassified and dispersed. To judge by their appearance in photos taken in South Wales - look for the vehicles with only 8 compartments - by no means all had their first class status restored. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks for locating that, Chris. We're getting a real insight into this can of worms and I hope Nigel isn't finding this too much of a tangent to his OP Only thing I can't understand is the left/right hand distinction. As I said earlier, I can't understand what it means in a non-corridor vehicle. Could it perhaps be something like the window alongside the guards door on E140/145 that appears on one side only? However, none of the photos I've found of D98 shows such a window on either side. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted March 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2011 Chris, look no further than the Cornish Special issue of GWR Journal where the subject is covered in an article by John Lewis. Chris Thanks Chris - helpful as usual - all the best, Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 What did GWR mean by the term, 'ORDINARY STOCK'? [Thinking here about non-corridor versus corridor stock]. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 In topic #13, Mike said, "To quote direct from the July 1937 London Division 'Working of Coaches .. etc and Gas Tanks' notice the following Stanarda Formations applied (unless shown otherwise all coaches are to be regarded as 8 wheeled) 4 Coach A Set Electric Lighting : Van 3rd (6 compts), First (8 compts), Third (9 compts), Van 3rd (6 compts). 5 coach A Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, First, Third, Van 3rd B Set Electric Lighting : Brk Compo, Brk Compo (Brake Compos to have one 1st and 5 x 3rd compartments in each coach) C Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, First, Lav Compo, Van 3rd D Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Compo, Compo, Van 3rd E Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, First, Third, Van 3rd G Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, Compo (3), Van. H Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Lav Compo, Van 3rd" Question, Was there a GWR F-set and what was its formation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2012 I don't know if there was an F set but in the Exeter & Plymouth Divisions an E set was at one time (in 1938) Brk Compo, Lav 3rd, Van Third although this was amended in the notice I have to read '3rd, Brk 3rd, Compo. I can also add to the above list (again Exeter & Plymouth Divisions 1938). M Set : Van 3rd, Lav Compo, 3rd, Van 3rd, giving 12 1st Class seats and 160 3rd Class, and, U Set : Van 3rd, Compo, Van 3rd, giving 12 1st Class seats and 96 3rd Class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 To quote direct from the July 1937 London Division 'Working of Coaches .. etc and Gas Tanks' notice the following Stanarda Formations applied (unless shown otherwise all coaches are to be regarded as 8 wheeled) 4 Coach A Set Electric Lighting : Van 3rd (6 compts), First (8 compts), Third (9 compts), Van 3rd (6 compts). 5 coach A Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, First, Third, Van 3rd B Set Electric Lighting : Brk Compo, Brk Compo (Brake Compos to have one 1st and 5 x 3rd compartments in each coach) C Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, First, Lav Compo, Van 3rd D Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Compo, Compo, Van 3rd E Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, First, Third, Van 3rd G Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Third, Compo (3), Van. H Set Ordinary Stock : Van 3rd, Lav Compo, Van 3rd Note these are described as 'Standard Formations' but I'm not at all sure if they applied Company wide (I have an Exeter Division Notice tucked away somewhere but not able to check it at present). However further formations are shown in the London Division Notice which are different from the above with but with very similar names, for instance there was 'Six Coach Local "C" trains (8 wheeled stock)' which from their workings were obviously 'City' stock and they were formed - Van 3rd, Third, Compo, Compo, Third, Van 3rd. And 'London four-Coach Suburban Trains' (Electric Lighting) which were formed Van Third, Compo, Compo, Van Third. While 'London Foor-Coach "A" Sets' were formed as the A Sets shown above. Then there were the 'Short Branch Trains' - a Brake Compo + a Third for Windsor; 2 x Brake Compo + a '4 First Compts, 12 Third Compts' for Henley plus a single additional Van 3rd for use as required; and 2 x B sets for Fairford And here's hoping I've copied it all accurately! Was 'Ordinary Stock' corridor coaches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Possible red herring coming up! As Mike Stationmaster's list differentiates between "electric lighting" and "ordinary stock", might said "ordinary stock" have been gas lit? The two well-known Barry Railway coaches used on the Hemyock branch from 1950 to 1962 were built with electric lighting in 1921 but converted to gas lighting as the speed attained on that rather corrugated branch was insufficient to charge the batteries. Some of the carriage working programmes that I have seen seek to differentiate between gangwayed and non-gangwayed coaches by using the letter X, eg a corridor third would be described as 'Third X'. Some trains were formed of a mixture of types and it would have been necessary to make clear which vehicles should have gangways. However - and we are talking of the GWR and its successor! - the practice was not consistently applied. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Only thing I can't understand is the left/right hand distinction. As I said earlier, I can't understand what it means in a non-corridor vehicle. Left/right hand is meaningless on a non-corridor vehicle, since it is defined in terms of the positioning while looking at the corridor side of the vehicle. I did notice that the JLTRT description called the coach a corridor vehicle (which it isn't), which might be the source of the confusion. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Left/right hand is meaningless on a non-corridor vehicle, since it is defined in terms of the positioning while looking at the corridor side of the vehicle. My point exactly. I did notice that the JLTRT description called the coach a corridor vehicle (which it isn't), which might be the source of the confusion. I'm inclined to suspect an uncorrected cut and paste error. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Possible red herring coming up! As Mike Stationmaster's list differentiates between "electric lighting" and "ordinary stock", might said "ordinary stock" have been gas lit? I wonder if the ones not explicitly labelled could contain gas-lit vehicles (though by 1937 there likely weren't a lot of those), while the "electric lighting" stock may have potentially been used on routes where gas lighting was no longer acceptable? Certainly the C and H sets were non-corridor stock since they had Lav Compos in them. I think ordinary stock was primarily non-corridor. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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