GWR post-1942 Cornish Riviera stock

[BenL]

Hi there,

 

I model the post-WWII GWR and I understand that the Centenary stock was no longer used on the Cornish Riviera Limited post-1942. However, I have been unable to find out what stock replaced the Centenary stock on this service post-1942.

 

I would be very grateful for any information or pointers anyone can offer.

 

Many thanks,

 

Ben

[Adrian Wintle]

I model the post-WWII GWR and I understand that the Centenary stock was no longer used on the Cornish Riviera Limited post-1942. However, I have been unable to find out what stock replaced the Centenary stock on this service post-1942.

 

It would likely have been later Collett diagrams. The Centenary stock came off the Riviera during the war primarily because of tis width (it was too wide to be diveted onto other lines), so I expect that the train was made up of quite recent general coaching stock. I doubt it it was a homogeneous rake, though. I'd have to look into my library to get closer than that.

 

I expect it would have initially had a similar formation to the 1938 diagrammed set:

- Penzance Portion*

Van Third

Third

Third Dining

Restaurant First

Compo

Van Third

- St. Ives Portion*

(Third)

Brake Compo

- Falmouth + other Portions

3+ Brake Compos

 

* The destinations of these portions would likely be swapped on summer saturdays.

 

Adrian

[chrisf]

It was traditional, though not guaranteed, for the Riviera to have the latest stock. In BR days although it was not the first ex-GW train to get Mk 1s it was the first to receive the chocolate and cream liveried vehicles in 1956 and the first to get a new maroon liveried set when the decision was taken to abandon chocolate and cream in 1962.

 

If it is any help, Michael Harris lists the following formation for the Riviera in November 1947 (note that two sets were required and only one is given):

 

Brake third 838 [Hawksworth]

Third 792 [Hawksworth]

Third 1490 [Collett 1936 standard]

Composite 7327 [Collett 1938 standard]

Composite 6136 [Collett 1936 standard]

Dining car 9571 [70 ft, 1923 type]

First 8100 [Collett 1938 standard]

Third 800 [Hawksworth]

Brake Third 837 [Hawksworth]

 

That was the main train. The following were detached at Plymouth:

 

Third 805 [Hawksworth]

First 8044 [Collett 1936 standard]

Brake Third 844 [Hawksworth]

 

What we [well I] don't know is what was in the set before the Hawksworths were built but it gives the general idea.

 

Chris

[Adrian Wintle]

What we [well I] don't know is what was in the set before the Hawksworths were built but it gives the general idea.

 

I'd guess that they were Collett 1936-41 stock.

 

Adrian

[BenL]

Adrian and Chris, thank you very much for your extremely helpful replies, especially the formation details - I really appreciate it.

 

I wonder why the GWR decided not to restore the Centenary stock once the war-time diversions ended?

 

Thanks again,

 

Ben

[coachmann]

It is quite likely named trains such as the one mentioned were withdrawn during the conflict. For a few years after the war, trains were a right proper mixed bag and there is evidence of elderly GWR clerestory coaches in mainline expresses. The term"express" was in name only due to the postwar backlog of track maintenance and speed restrictions in the later 1940's.

 

Coaches that could not be used as common user were put into store. These included Pullman cars, dining cars, sleeping cars, GWR, LNER and LMS supplementary-fare train sets and so on. Not sure how the railway authority dealt with the GWR red restriction 9' 7" wide stock but it might have been stored for safety rather than risk it accidently wandering off route.

[Adrian Wintle]

Not sure how the railway authority dealt with the GWR red restriction 9' 7" wide stock but it might have been stored for safety rather than risk it accidently wandering off route.

 

It was stored - at least the Centenary and Super Saloon stock was.

 

The Riviera probably didn't return to using the Centenary stock post-war because it was 10 years old by that point (7 years from the window rebuild), and as such was ready to be cascaded onto lesser services (within the route limitations).

 

Had the war not intervened I would have expected the GWR to have built another set of Riviera coaches in the 1940-42 timeframe since they seemed to have been doing so every 5 or so years.

 

Adrian

[gwrrob]

It was traditional, though not guaranteed, for the Riviera to have the latest stock. In BR days although it was not the first ex-GW train to get Mk 1s it was the first to receive the chocolate and cream liveried vehicles in 1956 and the first to get a new maroon liveried set when the decision was taken to abandon chocolate and cream in 1962.

 

If it is any help, Michael Harris lists the following formation for the Riviera in November 1947 (note that two sets were required and only one is given):

 

Brake third 838 [Hawksworth]

Third 792 [Hawksworth]

Third 1490 [Collett 1936 standard]

Composite 7327 [Collett 1938 standard]

Composite 6136 [Collett 1936 standard]

Dining car 9571 [70 ft, 1923 type]

First 8100 [Collett 1938 standard]

Third 800 [Hawksworth]

Brake Third 837 [Hawksworth]

 

That was the main train. The following were detached at Plymouth:

 

Third 805 [Hawksworth]

First 8044 [Collett 1936 standard]

Brake Third 844 [Hawksworth]

 

What we [well I] don't know is what was in the set before the Hawksworths were built but it gives the general idea.

 

Chris

 

 

What an excellent question Ben.Thanks for this info Chris as I might need it one day. I assume these are the Hawksworths that were turned out in choc/cream or is it the livery they carried.

[BenL]

That's a very good point Adrian about the Centenary stock being a bit past it in terms of top express work, especially as there was more modern stock available.

 

Talking of which, I wasn't sure that the new Hawksworth coaches saw service on the GWR so it's good to know that they did. I'm assuming that these would have been the same design as the ones Hornby are due to bring out in GWR livery this year? Hornby seem to be listing them as '1949' which made me wonder if the prototypes they are modelling were outshopped only after the GWR had passed on.

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[coachmann]

The Centenaries weren't past it. They worked the 'Cornish Riviera Express' until 1941 when the possibility of diversions over emergency routes unable to take these 9' 7" wide vehuicles saw their removal.

 

The Centenary Restaurant Cars were stored during the war and put back into trafiic after renovation in 1947. They recieved the 'Hampton Interior Scheme Mk.2' with buff leather upholstery for first-cloass and brown in third-class. They could be found running in trains behind the original Warships.

 

The Centenary stock was not restored to the 'Cornish Riviera' in post-war days, which was then composed of a variety of coaches including Hawksworth's. A 1938 rake of sotck was given experimental plum & split milk livery for the 'Roviera'.

 

In the early 1950's one set of Centenaries was used between Wester-super-Mare and Paddington while the di=ner pairs were working between Paddinton and Shrewsbury. From then on they were used in all sorts of workings and ended their days in reliefs and slow trains. In 1961 the Centenary Diners were still at work on Weston-super-Mare, Wolverhampton and Plymouth trains, being based at Old Oak Common and used at weekends on Newbury Racecourse Specials. No. 9636 is reputed to be the final GWR restaurant car on a regular daily duty until the autumn of 1962. All became extinct in 1964.

[Adrian Wintle]

That's a very good point Adrian about the Centenary stock being a bit past it in terms of top express work, especially as there was more modern stock available.

 

Talking of which, I wasn't sure that the new Hawksworth coaches saw service on the GWR so it's good to know that they did. I'm assuming that these would have been the same design as the ones Hornby are due to bring out in GWR livery this year? Hornby seem to be listing them as '1949' which made me wonder if the prototypes they are modelling were outshopped only after the GWR had passed on.

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

 

It wasn't so much that they were 'past it', but that they weren't the newest/greatest thing, and so were perhaps no longer appropriate for the GWR's premiere express. As coachmann points out, they saw a lot of use in the post-war days. The Centenary formation was already somewhat less than homogeneous by the time they were taken out of service in 1941, partly due to replacements while the windows were being redone.

 

The Hawksworth coaches would have been very new in the Nov '47 consist quoted above. It is still questionable whether they actually received the GWR crests and lettering. I'd think it likely that at least the ones used on the Limited did receive the full treatment (for pride if nothing else). These are the same as the Hornby coaches, and yes, I believe only some of the thirds and van thirds made it into service before nationalization.

 

Adrian

[chrisf]

As Coachmann has mentioned the experimental plum and spilt milk livery of 1948 - and before anyone asks it was NOT the same as blood and custard - it might be helpful to inmates if I quote the formation of the Riviera set that carried it, starting with the Penzance portion:

 

Brake third 1634

Third 535

Third 553

Composite 7001

Composite 7028

Dining car 9572

First 8110

Third 544

Brake third 659

 

Alll these were 1938 standard vehicles except for the dining car which was a 70 footer of 1923.

 

Plymouth portion:

 

First 8094

Brake third 1645

 

Spares: Composite 7007, Third 567

 

In addition Third 545 is recorded as carrying the livery though whether it was part of the main train or the Plymouth portion is not clear from Harris. FWIW I suspect the latter.

 

Note that the absence of Hawksworth stock is a rare exception to the rule that the "best" train had the newest stock. The other WR set to carry plum and spilt milk worked the Bristolian and that had no Hawksworth stock either.

 

It is always advisable to remember that nothing was straightforward on the Western!

 

Chris

[melmerby]

 

Talking of which, I wasn't sure that the new Hawksworth coaches saw service on the GWR so it's good to know that they did. I'm assuming that these would have been the same design as the ones Hornby are due to bring out in GWR livery this year? Hornby seem to be listing them as '1949' which made me wonder if the prototypes they are modelling were outshopped only after the GWR had passed on.

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

 

This has been discussed quite a bit before. If you take Michael Harris's lists then some Hawksworth stock was delivered and presumably ran on the GWR. e.g. lot 1714 Bk Thirds were delivered from 1946 and completed in Nov '48

The majority were built after BR took over although some early post 1948 deliveries would have been in GWR livery but without GWR insignia before a BR livery was decided upon.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

 

The Hawksworth coaches would have been very new in the Nov '47 consist quoted above. It is still questionable whether they actually received the GWR crests and lettering.

 

Adrian

 

Michael Harris has a picture of Third No. 855 in full GWR livery (Great [crest] Western)in 1946 and Russell - Lot 1691 Third No. 796 in full GWR livery ('GWR' above crest) and 783 with just "Great Western" no crest, interesting variations.

IMHO it is not questionable whether the early deliveries wore full GWR livery. As many lots were not completed until a few years after the GWR ceased to be the actual quantities are probably limited.

 

EDIT: Added reference to Russell.

Keith

[Adrian Wintle]

Michael Harris has a picture of Third No. 855 in full GWR livery (Great [crest] Western)in 1946 and Russell - Lot 1691 Third No. 796 in full GWR livery ('GWR' above crest) and 783 with just "Great Western" no crest, interesting variations.

IMHO it is not questionable whether the early deliveries wore full GWR livery. As many lots were not completed until a few years after the GWR ceased to be the actual quantities are probably limited.

 

EDIT: Added reference to Russell.

Keith

 

The only photos I've seen (including the referenced ones) are ex-works official photos. There doesn't appear to be any photographic evidence of these coaches in service in full livery. That being said, I'd assume the early ones, especially if used on the Limited, would have carried full livery in service.

 

I had a quick look in some of the books I have last night.

 

In 'Titled Trains of the Western' there is a photo that claims to be the up Riviera in August 1949. It is not a particularly good reproduction of the photo, and the livery is indistinguishable - it could be GWR chocolate and cream or BR carmine and cream, or even the plum and spilt milk (LNWR) scheme.

It shows a Castle hauling the following:

- older Collett TK (possibly one of the 1930s Riviera coaches)

- Collett Sunshine BTK'

- Collett low waist TK (1936)

- 8 more coaches which appear to be late Collett designs

 

In 'Window on the Great Western' there is an undated shot that claims to be the up Riviera during the winter schedule.

It is almost certainly in GWR days and, I would guess, is probably early 1947.

It shows a King (KGV) hauling the following:

- Collett Sunshine BTK

- Toplight TK

- Hawksworth TK (those flat sides are very distinctive)

- Centenary BCK

- Centenary BCK

- the rest of the train is indistinguishable as it curves out of shot, but the caption claims that the core portion of the train was the Centenary set.

This seems to indicate that the Centenary coaches were used on the Riviera immediately post-war, probably until they went into the rebuilds that coachmann referred to.

 

Adrian

[melmerby]

The only photos I've seen (including the referenced ones) are ex-works official photos. There doesn't appear to be any photographic evidence of these coaches in service in full livery. That being said, I'd assume the early ones, especially if used on the Limited, would have carried full livery in service.

 

 

Adrian

 

It appears to me that if a coach was built and painted ready for service in 1946/47 when the operating department was crying out for new coaching stock, it seems inconceivable that they would have:

a ) been put into store and not used until later.

b ) had the insignia removed before being put into stock.

 

From this I am prepared to accept, photographic evidence lacking none the less, that the early deliveries entered service in full GWR livery.

 

Keith

[BenL]

Many thanks to all for more excellent information and insight.

 

It's very interesting that the Centenaries might have put in a reappearance on the post-war Limited after all. I assume that as they had been in store and were yet to be refurbished, they would have still been carrying the monogram livery? It seems that the post-war Limited could have been quite an interesting sight, with some Centenary stock, some late Colletts and some brand-new Hawksworths.

 

And apologies for describing the Centenaries as past it, Adrian has clarified what I was trying to say!

[Coach bogie]

Just been checking through my photos.

 

Maurice Early photographed the CRE in 1947 with 6012 up front. Sunshine Brake 3rd 3x Hawksworths, rest of train not visible.

 

May 27 1948 6002 hauled the CRE with the main train a complete train of Hawksworths apart from the usual 1930's diner. Detaching sections and strengthening coaches at the rear 1930's stock.

 

Most interesting shot, again one of Early's, is a complete centenary rake on a Weston Super Mare train hauled by 1000 County of Middlesex in 1946 to support Larry's post.

 

I have shots of single centenaries in trains but no complete trains apart from the county mentioned.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[coachmann]

Official company photos have a lot to answer for! Personally I think the Hawksworth coaches that appear in photos showing full GWR regalia were a merely last fling by the GWR to place on record their last coach design. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to put any company initials on coaches leaving the paintshops after Nationalization. Allowing for a runover period, Big Four markings would not be applied after around the second week of January 1948. In the complete abesence of anything else, company transfers had to be applied and so in the case of the Western Region of BR, the numbers continued to go at each end of the coach within the double lining but with a 'W' prefix. Over the next twelve months some modifications to the chocolate & cream style kicked in.

 

I can understand why people WANT to believe there were lots of Hawsworths running around in full GWR livery, but wanting it isn't the same as historical accuracy. This is where modellers licence comes in...

[Mallard60022]

Thanks BenL. Your thread has encouraged me to read (thoroughly, rather than browsing) the Mike Harris book Great Western Coaches from 1890! I've never really been that interested in really 'old' coaches but this read is fascinating and along with my recently acquired Russel volumes has helped fill in loads of gaps in my spotting memories from the late 50's onwards. (I never really took much notice of rolling stock back then; DOH )

For example I can remember seeing what was probably one of the last up Ocean Liner Express trains a Plymouth North Road circa 1959/60, with an absolutely spotless 5069 Isambard Kingdom Brunel up front, but ask me what the coaches were and .......?

Also the contributions of members to this thread is, as usual, full of interesting detail - thanks chaps.

P @ 36E

[Brake Compo]

There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to put any company initials on coaches leaving the paintshops after Nationalization. Allowing for a runover period, Big Four markings would not be applied after around the second week of January 1948. In the complete abesence of anything else, company transfers had to be applied and so in the case of the Western Region of BR, the numbers continued to go at each end of the coach within the double lining but with a 'W' prefix..

 

Can only speak for the Southern, which might have differed from Western practice, but according to King SR brandiing was still being applied in March 1948. Indeed the widely reproduced photos of Bullied 6 car set 300 show it in full Southern livery - this set was indeed outshopped in March 1948.

[melmerby]

Official company photos have a lot to answer for! Personally I think the Hawksworth coaches that appear in photos showing full GWR regalia were a merely last fling by the GWR to place on record their last coach design. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to put any company initials on coaches leaving the paintshops after Nationalization. Allowing for a runover period, Big Four markings would not be applied after around the second week of January 1948. In the complete abesence of anything else, company transfers had to be applied and so in the case of the Western Region of BR, the numbers continued to go at each end of the coach within the double lining but with a 'W' prefix. Over the next twelve months some modifications to the chocolate & cream style kicked in.

 

I can understand why people WANT to believe there were lots of Hawsworths running around in full GWR livery, but wanting it isn't the same as historical accuracy. This is where modellers licence comes in...

 

But some of these photographs were taken in 1946/7.

Nationalisation was 1/1/1948 therefore why shouldn't the coaches have full GWR livery?

 

Some batches of Hawksworths were either completed before nationalisation e.g. lot 1692 all 22 delivered by 27/12/47, or soon afterwards e.g. lots 1691 & 1705 by mid 1948 so early numbers would have been delivered to the GWR. The Hawksworth coaches were ordered in Oct 1944. The GWR expected at least one a week after first deliveries in 1946 but this couldn't be met due to material shortages etc. hence completion dates as late as 1951. (info from Harris)

Interpolating figures would suggest a number around 50-60 delivered before BR out of a total ordered of around 260.

 

Keith

[coachmann]

coachmann :

There was absolutely no reason whatsoever to put any company initials on coaches leaving the paintshops after Nationalization.

I'm suprised it needs some clarification Melmerby. Some Thirds and Brake Thirds were completed before the end of 1947, that we know. Lot 1693 Brake Third No.833, the very first of the batch, was released to traffic on 6th December 1947, and a further 20-odd Brake Thirds to No.854 were said to have been completed by 27th December of that year. When they actually entered traffic we don't know. Some of the Thirds were also completed in GWR days. But what of the Firsts, Composites, Brake Composites and Full Brakes?

 

The fact remains there was no reason to apply company markings after nationalization.

[BenL]

coachmann :

I'm suprised it needs some clarification Melmerby. Some Thirds and Brake Thirds were completed before the end of 1947, that we know. Lot 1693 Brake Third No.833, the very first of the batch, was released to traffic on 6th December 1947, and a further 20-odd Brake Thirds to No.854 were said to have been completed by 27th December of that year. When they actually entered traffic we don't know. Some of the Thirds were also completed in GWR days. But what of the Firsts, Composites, Brake Composites and Full Brakes?

 

The fact remains there was no reason to apply company markings after nationalization.

 

Many thanks to all for the further insights, although I must admit I'm getting rather confused now! If I've read his last post right, Coachman seems to be suggesting that no Hawksworths were in service before 6th December 1947 (and I would be interested to know the source for this), but the Micheal Harris list provided by chrisf shows 6 Hawksworths on the Limited in Nov 1947!

[Adrian Wintle]

In 'Window on the Great Western' there is an undated shot that claims to be the up Riviera during the winter schedule.

It is almost certainly in GWR days and, I would guess, is probably early 1947.

It shows a King (KGV) hauling the following:

- Collett Sunshine BTK

- Toplight TK

- Hawksworth TK (those flat sides are very distinctive)

- Centenary BCK

- Centenary BCK

- the rest of the train is indistinguishable as it curves out of shot, but the caption claims that the core portion of the train was the Centenary set.

 

Having had another look at this picture, it appears that the coach I initially identified as a Hawksworth is a late Collett. The lighting and the coaches beside it (both of which have pronounced tumblehome) made it look like there was no tumlehome on this coach. The giveaway is that it has roof board brackets above the gutters. The Hawksworth coaches had them below the gutters. This means that the train in question is actually probably in 1938 or 1939.

 

Adrian