JeremyC Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 The topic description says it all really! I'm currently building the Comet Stove R kit, but have just noticed that neither the instructions or the drawing I have give a position on the roof for its signature feature's chimney! I'd be much obliged if someone could give me sizes to locate its position. Thanks Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Just saw your post - you've probably already found your answer. For the record (according to Jenkinson's LMS Coach book), when built the vehicles were equipped for steam heat and were apparently not fitted with stoves. During the war, for comfort when steam heat was not available, stoves were requested by the crews. These were fitted on the centerline of the vehicle at roughly the mid point. None of the pictures and drawings I have show the precise location and there is nothing sticking up so perhaps the chimney was flush. If your era is post 1939, your Stove R should have a stove. I have a question about vacuum cylinder placement. The Comet instructions show two side by side on the same shaft. The two battery boxes are on the opposite end. I have the Dapol model and it has just one vac cylinder with battery boxes diametrically oposed (OK OK I wouldn't necessarily trust Dapol either but they got their info from somewhere). My drawing in Peter Tatlow's NPCS book seems to confirm the Dapol configuration. My other source is the David Jenkinson LMS Coach book and the drawing there doesn't show the brake gear. Photos of the underframe are poor. It seems to me that if you were going to fit the Stove R with two cylinders you would put them on opposite ends. One cyl. to actuate the end and center axle brakes and the other cyl. to actuate the other end brakes. If fitted with just one cylinder, I can imagine the pull rod for the center brakes extending to the far axle brakes. Perhaps someone can enlighten. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Did the centre axle have brake-shoes? They were absent on 6-wheel milk tanks, and also the LMS 6-wheel Fish vans, which were also NPCCS, for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Many 6 wheel vehicles did not have brakes on the center wheels, like the milk tanks. It is clear however, that the Stove R had brakes there. The 6 wheeled express fish van, D2115 (eg. Chivers model which I just started) also had brakes on the center wheels. It is important to have a source of photos and drawings. John Edit: For more precision, the following LMS 6 wheelers did NOT have brakes on the center wheels: D1871, CCT D1874, Milk The Insulated Milk Van, D1936 had center wheel brakes. It's annoying that underframe details are so often glossed over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Not sure if anything of use is here..... http://www.rmweb.co....r-parcels-vans/ Scroll down to bottom of page for Comet Stove. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I did a search before posting and came up with your excellent article. I just finished improving my second Dapol Stove R (for a friend - it really is a diabolical runner out of the box) by the addition of Comet W irons and 14 mm wheels. My own first coach runs very well now, the second is awaiting some testing. I have a third (LMS) which I want to convert to EM and give the full underframe treatment. However, while you talk about both the Dapol and Comet models in your article the underframe details are scant. I am unclear on the location and quantity of the vacuum cylinders. The Dapol model and Comet instruction sheet are contradictory. If I knew the answer to this I could probably interpolate the pull rod linkages. Thanks John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I cannot access my Comet Stove just at the minute but rest assured I will find it and photograph the underside in the morning. I need to leave meself a reminder now................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 That's very good of you. I look forward to seeing the pics. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Many 6 wheel vehicles did not have brakes on the center wheels, like the milk tanks. It is clear however, that the Stove R had brakes there. The 6 wheeled express fish van, D2115 (eg. Chivers model which I just started) also had brakes on the center wheels. It is important to have a source of photos and drawings. How did they keep the brake aligned with the wheels and stop the blocks rubbing on the wheel flanges? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 How did they keep the brake aligned with the wheels and stop the blocks rubbing on the wheel flanges? I imagine the lateral displacement of the centre wheels on mainline track was minimal. Underside of my Comet Stove attached here.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 How did they keep the brake aligned with the wheels and stop the blocks rubbing on the wheel flanges? This vehicle appears to make use of bow girders, which fasten pairs of blocks together, allowing for a small amount of sideplay in the meanwhile. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46409-carraige-brake-assembly/ Because railway wheels have a slight taper inside to outside, and the back to back doesn't change, the brake blocks are effectively self centering on the wheelsets. Brake blocks are more likely to rub on the outer edge of the tyre surface, wearing away the outside edge and shortening the life of the wheelset. This is called flanging, where the brake blocks bite part on and part off the tyre, this leads to the tyre damage as already mentioned, a reduction in braking effectiveness and drastically shortens the life of the brake pad/shoe. Wagons often don't use bow girders, instead the shoes have a large clasp on the back that tucks behind the wheel flange and prevents the shoe walking off the tyre, ironically often these clasps wear out before the shoe does! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Thanks for the picture Coachman. Seems to confirm the Dapol configuration along with Peter Tatlow's (side view) drawing. Wonder where Comet got their info? Boris, I already nicked your pictures. Regarding the original purpose of this thread - the location of the chimney for the stove - the Dapol model has it. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan100 Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Wonder where Comet got their info? Lost in the mists of time, but always happy to update the instructions if shown to be incorrect. Geoff Comet Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 What someone needs to do is tip a real one on its side so we can see once and for all. I did a pretty thorough search of the web and couldn't find any photos of the underside. Perhaps the LMS Society has something more detailed. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'll try to post up some photos of the 6-wheel fish van at Peak Rail, not quite a Stove R but the principles are pretty similar. Im hoping the works drawings of the Stove R come up soon as the Wolverton archives are being indexed at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I just started the Chivers Fish Van using Bill Bedford W irons (for the first time so my learning curve is steep). The pictures will be most useful. Thanks John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 This vehicle appears to make use of bow girders, which fasten pairs of blocks together, allowing for a small amount of sideplay in the meanwhile. Yes I know that, but normal brake hangers are hinged so that they could only move in the plane of the wheel. So how were the brake shoes able to track the axial movement of wheels on the central axle? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I just started the Chivers Fish Van using Bill Bedford W irons (for the first time so my learning curve is steep). The pictures will be most useful. If you are using my w-irons you may like to look at my preferred way of dealing with the middle axle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I just started the Chivers Fish Van using Bill Bedford W irons (for the first time so my learning curve is steep). The pictures will be most useful. Thanks John Which w-irons did you use as the prototype ones are pretty unique? Note the much longer swing links and j hangars on the middle axle, something Dapol/Hornby mag didn't bother with for their Stove R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 You're right about the J hangars on the Dapol Stove R. For my first attempt to improve running, I used Comet W irons but simply glued the plastic axle boxes on, thinned slightly. The coach actually runs well around the club layout but I will go back and use the correct J hangers etc on it. For my EM gauge effort I plan to go all out which is why I've been making a nuisance of myself here. For the fish van, I haven't studied the Chivers molded W irons/axle boxes in detail but they look to be pretty good, so I thought I'd glue these to the BB W-irons. The J hangers appear to be correct. Many thanks for the pictures, I can confirm the accuracy of the Chivers kit and make a much more informed decision about how to proceed. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Correct 'J' hangers with longer ones on centre axlebox as supplied by Comet.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I did actually have a question about the bits in the J hanger/spring pack. Attached to the spring on either end (but very fragile) are what look like shock absorbers, similar to but larger than those on the J hangers. I haven't been able to work out what they are for. My speculation is that perhaps some vehicles had large shock absorbers and that the J hangers would need to be modified in that case. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan100 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I did actually have a question about the bits in the J hanger/spring pack. Attached to the spring on either end (but very fragile) are what look like shock absorbers, similar to but larger than those on the J hangers. I haven't been able to work out what they are for. My speculation is that perhaps some vehicles had large shock absorbers and that the J hangers would need to be modified in that case. John Hi John, The castings we supply with the J hangers are the same spring/axlebox castings that are used on the LMS six wheel bogie. When used for that they need the 'shock absorbers', but they're not needed when used with J hangers. As you rightly point out, the castings are quite fine and so when sorting them for packing the complete ones go in the six wheel bogie packs and any castings with a 'shock absorber' or two missing goes with the J hangers. Of course, if the current batch of castings is very good, then even the ones in the J hanger packs will have the extras, and you'll need to snip them off. HTH Geoff Comet Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Ding! Penny drops. Thanks Geoff. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Since the Chivers 6 Wheel Fish van came up in discussion, I thought I'd provide some pictures of my rendition: Bill Bedford sprung W irons (outer axles only); Comet J hangars, axle boxes and sprungs. Outer axles are fixed - didn't know how to do the reinforcing bar otherwise. The chassis was tested on the intended layout (A5 and Peco small points) before details were added and was OK. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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