brian777999 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I thought that I would be able to answer this question by doing a google search but I have had no luck. Which livery was used on brake vans during the BR early crest period ? Was this the grey colour ? (I realise that many brake vans during this period would still be carrying the LMS, GWR, LNER and Southern markings.) Which livery was used during the BR later crest period ? Was this the bauxite colour or did grey and bauxite have nothing to do with time periods ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted July 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 8, 2011 Grey livery was used on non-fitted Brake Vans and Bauxite was used on Vac fitted Brake Vans. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 As with other freight stock BR livery dictated unfitted brake vans were painted grey, fitted were painted bauxite. . Obviously there will be the odd exception to the rule (as in most lerge organisations). . Brian R 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnforth Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Mornin' I think that through Vac-piped i.e.not fitted but able to brake a vac-braked train were also bauxite. Steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Mornin' I think that through Vac-piped i.e.not fitted but able to brake a vac-braked train were also bauxite. Steve Correct (usually). A lot of BR vans (most ?) were in fact piped only. That way the guard could still apply the brake via the brake valve in the van, but the added complication (and expense) of vac cylinders on the van was avoided. On a proper fitted van the vac pipe upstand (or part of it) should be red, on a piped van it was white (I think I've got those the right way round). See numerous earlier threads by PennineMC and others for more details on this particular peculiarity. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnforth Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Correct (usually). A lot of BR vans (most ?) were in fact piped only. That way the guard could still apply the brake via the brake valve in the van, but the added complication (and expense) of vac cylinders on the van was avoided. On a proper fitted van the vac pipe upstand (or part of it) should be red, on a piped van it was white (I think I've got those the right way round). See numerous earlier threads by PennineMC and others for more details on this particular peculiarity. Yep, you're right about red for fitted , white for piped only. I think this may also be linked to the empty XP box seen on a lot of post '64 brake van branding. Was it that only fully fitted brake vans actually had XP in the box, whilst those left empty were piped only? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yep, you're right about red for fitted , white for piped only. I think this may also be linked to the empty XP box seen on a lot of post '64 brake van branding. Was it that only fully fitted brake vans actually had XP in the box, whilst those left empty were piped only? If you mean the square box to the right of the left hand number box then these were rarely used - they seem to have been for some sort of route information; they occasionally had a number in them. It was not for XP which was used for all piped vans as well as the rare vacuum braked ones. Do not overlook all freight stock was freight stock red for a few years after the introduction of the corporate image in 1964. Paul Bartlett 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Freight Stock red? Help me out Paul, that's not Bauxite, not BR freight brown, or Gulf red, no? Fixated as I am with my own warped vision of Doctor B's Modern Image, this is fundamental. EDIT: GSW expertise of the era to my rescue: see post below Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Freight Stock red? Help me out Paul, that's not Bauxite, not BR freight brown, or Gulf red, no? Fixated as I am with my own warped vision of Doctor B's Modern Image, this is fundamental. from some time back, save Paul's fingers Unfortunately except for a period which began in January 1963 and ended ??? when everything was to be painted freight stock red (BR never referred to the colour as Bauxite, presumably because it was not purely made from Bauxite ore). But yes, before and after that period grey unfitted, FSR for piped and power braked wagons. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 As Stuart says, there are many existing posts/threads going into the 'ifs and buts', such as vans becoming 'de-fitted' but not reliveried. I'm also fairly sure there's a pic in Eric Gent's book showing a brand new unfitted van in bauxite If you mean the square box to the right of the left hand number box then these were rarely used - they seem to have been for some sort of route information; they occasionally had a number in them. It was not for XP which was used for all piped vans as well as the rare vacuum braked ones. I havent time to dig it out now but I have a copy of a BR doc from the NRM suggesting that a new system of speed classification was to be introduced with the post-'64 lettering; photographs of the period obviously suggest it wasnt widely adopted, if at all, but it is possible to find pics of Vanwides and Palvans with '2' or '4' in the box at right of the number box. IIRC it doesnt mention the meaning of an empty box, but evidence of that on steel minerals and Plates might mean it was for the lowest speed classification, i.e. unfitted wagons I would hazard a guess that this system was intended to supersede the 'XP' marking, although there is of course plenty of evidence to show that 'XP' boxes were carried on all sorts of wagons with the post-'64 liveries 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Going back to the livery question. What colour did they paint the roofs of brake vans? Was it white and soon weathered to a dirty grey/black or were they painted grey in the first place? Cheers, Willy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Going back to the livery question. What colour did they paint the roofs of brake vans? Was it white and soon weathered to a dirty grey/black or were they painted grey in the first place? This was covered in the forum's last incarnation if you want to try searching. Photos I posted at the time appear to show basic 'roofing felt' colour (i.e. not quite black) with a bit of added dirt. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I havent time to dig it out now but I have a copy of a BR doc from the NRM suggesting that a new system of speed classification was to be introduced with the post-'64 lettering; photographs of the period obviously suggest it wasnt widely adopted, if at all, but it is possible to find pics of Vanwides and Palvans with '2' or '4' in the box at right of the number box. IIRC it doesnt mention the meaning of an empty box, but evidence of that on steel minerals and Plates might mean it was for the lowest speed classification, i.e. unfitted wagons I would hazard a guess that this system was intended to supersede the 'XP' marking, although there is of course plenty of evidence to show that 'XP' boxes were carried on all sorts of wagons with the post-'64 liveries Thanks, that is an interesting and very plausible explanation. I cannot recollect ever hearing any explanation for these boxes, which do not appear on the colour plate in the Corporate identity manual. Do you have a reference to where this was found in the NRM as I would be interested to see it - and only live 10 minutes walk from their library? As you say Gent E (1999) British Railways Brake vans and ballast ploughs. Pub. By HMRS 92pp. ISBN 0 – 902835 – 16 –5. should be referred to for brake van liveries. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted July 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2011 As Stuart says, there are many existing posts/threads going into the 'ifs and buts', such as vans becoming 'de-fitted' but not reliveried. I'm also fairly sure there's a pic in Eric Gent's book showing a brand new unfitted van in bauxite Quite often (but by no means universal) the ends of van were painted grey when de-fitted. The book Paul Bartlett mentions is invaluable and well worth investing in. Cheers Griff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Do you have a reference to where this was found in the NRM as I would be interested to see it - and only live 10 minutes walk from their library? It's in the Minutes of the Wagon Standards Subcommittee Paul, minute 5821 dated 28.2.63, and now I have it here it specifically says 'This code figure would supersede existing "XP" and "Star" markings. It goes on to list specific vehicle types/classes. It has a handwritten note, 'Amended - See Minute 5851', which I dont think I have any notes of, but as it's clearly only a proposal, that might refer to its non-adoption. If you need anything more, get one of my friends to let you have my email addy (as you can't PM me), or if you find it it, would you report back on whether 5851 adds anything? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 What about engineering department brake vans ? Were they black ? Does anybody have any photos of such a van either as a model or the prototype so I can see the numbering and lettering ? I am building the Dapol BR brake van at the moment and I am think of finishing it as an engineering department van if I can get the correct transfers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) What about engineering department brake vans ? Were they black ? ...I am building the Dapol BR brake van at the moment and I am think of finishing it as an engineering department van Not BR builds, because they werent built for that use and wouldnt have passed into it whilst that livery was current. The earliest to do so would probably have been in the late 60s, they'd have either kept their traffic livery or possibly received olive green if on the SR Edited September 23, 2011 by Pennine MC 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Some good info here. I have been wondering about the colour of brake stands and also the van colour for through piped vehicles - bauxite makes sense. I shouldn't worry about the exact shade of colours if you plan to weather. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 What about engineering department brake vans ? Were they black ? Does anybody have any photos of such a van either as a model or the prototype so I can see the numbering and lettering ? I am building the Dapol BR brake van at the moment and I am think of finishing it as an engineering department van if I can get the correct transfers. Hundreds on my zenfolio site - http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakevan As others have said none were built for the engineers, so all were later transfers. Paul Bartlett 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 When would the Railfreight red and grey have started to appear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 When would the Railfreight red and grey have started to appear? Covered in the other thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/10645-when-did-railfreight-redgrey-first-appear/&do=findComment&comment=93113 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Sorry Should hAve been more specific What I meant wAs would red grey have been used regardless of if they were fitted or unfitted? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Should hAve been more specific What I meant wAs would red grey have been used regardless of if they were fitted or unfitted? So should I, looking back at that post. Red/grey was 'the Speedlink livery' and thus only applicable to stock fitted with air brakes - vac fitted, piped or unfitted wagons should have retained existing liveries or, if repainted, been done in bauxite/brown. I do STR though that a few CAP (vac piped) brakes incorrectly got the red/grey. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Cheers Pennine MC. Just been reading your page about brake vans. Most excellent. Edited May 9, 2012 by ess1uk 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shed Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Cheers Pennine MC. Just been reading your page about brake vans. Most excellent. I can't find that page 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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