mikeh Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 In late 1968 Powell Duffryn built 24 wagons for BRT for lease to the Imperial Smelting Corporation to carry Zinc ingots between Swansea, Avonmouth and Bloxwich. They were apparently used on a triangular flow between the three loactions over a 10 day period in special block trains of up to 760 tons. Payload was around 32 tons. This is a contempory publicity picture, sorry about the quality: The zinc was taken from Swansea to Avonmouth to be refined then to Bloxwich for conversion to Mazak (a well known die-casting alloy...). Does anybody know how long the wagons lasted or have any other information about the workings? Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I do not remember this flow or the wagons, I joined Bristol TOPS in October 1978. Do you have the wagon numbers, that might jog my memory? I seem to recall occasional traffic from Hallen Marsh to Bloxwich, but it was in Cov ABs, and went on ordinary service. I can not remember any block train workings from Swansea at that time. Sorry not a positive response, but it might narrow things down a bit, cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Two of the wagons lasted to be converted to PFA's that COBRA used out of Boulby for traffic to Middlesbrough Goods. Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Some further points:- There was an additional, prototype, wagon built on a 21t fitted mineral wagon chassis. Dia.No was 1/436, and wagon number B311047. I don't have a date for the conversion. The smelter at Llansamlet was adjacent to the GWR main line, but was served by the former Midland line from Swansea Docks. The plant closed in the early 1970s- by 1976, one of the former works engineers was working with me in another plant (not RTZ/ISC) in Avonmouth. Part of the branch survived as a preservation site, but was eventually abandoned due to vandalism relatively recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 the LTSV site at http://www.ltsv.com/w_ref_numbers_po4.php shows: BRT 95051-95074 1968 PFA Zinc Block Flat Wagon which looks about right from the description above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 A very interesting picture, albeit of limited use for modelling purposes, but (purely for my reference for the moment) it looks remarkably similar to the underframes used on contemporary 4 wheeled tanks (best known, if you insist, by the the fuel tanks TOPS reference TTA). Apparently air brake only with no through pipe for vacuum with large headed, long (2' 1/2") OLEOs, and hinged sides. Any ideas as to what those handwheels at each end were for? They can't be for the brakes as the lever is clearly visible. If anyone has any further pictures, a side view (of any quality) in particular, I'd be interested to see them since a conversion from a Bachmann TTA chassis is probably feasible. Not saying that I will, but interesting, none the less. Adam PS There's a weight diagram here: http://www.barrowmor...0Part1Issue.pdf the details attached to which would seem to confirm the above and "eastwestdivide's" notes since it shows a recognisably similar vehicle. Shows that four were still registered in 1984 (at the time the book was issued) and therefore possibly still in traffic. Perhaps these are the vehicles that Mark refers to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixie Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 If anyone has any further pictures, a side view (of any quality) in particular, I'd be interested to see them since a conversion from a Bachmann TTA chassis is probably feasible. Great minds Adam... great minds! I'll drop Hywel Thomas an email to see if he can help out, if anyone can it's likely to be him. Pix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Looking at those handwheels, I suspect they worked on a similar principle to the ends of the Palbricks. The ends would have been moved in until they were tight up against the load. If you look at the shaft across the wagon, there are circular 'boxes' at 1/3 and 2/3 across, which could be covering some sort of drive gear. I remember seeing at least one of the 'Cobra' examples at Tees Yard in 1987, when I went measuring wagons there with David Monk-Steel- I'd thought it was an ex-TTA underframe until David Corrected me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvdlcs Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hello. From looking at the picture, I would say that the handwheels would be used to move the end pieces so that the load could be clamped in place. Conjecture on my part though. (Had opened the topic before Fat Controller replied at 19:40). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 That photo shows up on this ebay item, of a press cutting, very much in the old Modern Railways/Railway Magazine style, where the accompanying write-up confirms the wheels are for adjusting the ends inwards/outwards to centre the load in order to equalise the load on each axle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymozza Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hi Guys, In the mid seventies the Avonmouth to Bloxwich zinc train using these wagons ran fortnightly on Thursdays as 6Z48 routed via Dudley, loaded one week, empties back the next, usually, but not always running in the same path as the "extra" wednesdays only china clay, due dudley around 10.30am northbound, 12.30 southbound. Always a class 47 job, never saw any other type on it. it always took the banker at Stourbridge northbound. However I do have query if anyone can help. I have a 1968 publicity photo kindly sent to me by Paul Bartlett when I enquired with him about any possible photos he might have, it shows a green 47 leaving Avonmouth with the full loaded rake. The load is of TWO seperate large flat ingots similar in size to the Alumimium ingots that travelled from Lynemouth to south wales in freightliner flats. But my memory of the loaded train was of rows of 6 X 3 smaller ingots, can anyone confirm that the size of ingots changed between 68 and 74/75? cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Ignore me - I'm just trying to follow this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks for the responses guys. The article was in Modern Railways for Feb 1969. The picture shows shows D1676 leaving Avonmouth with 24 wagons, heacode looks like 4Z82. The article states the loads as Swansea to Avonmouth 18 ingots to a wagon weighing 30.5 tons and Avonmouth-Bloxwich 40 blocks to a wagon weighing 31.75 tons. As the blocks were different sizes the wagons were fitted with moveable ends, adjustable over 10 inches by wheels and trunnions. Tare weight apparently 10.5 tons. The trains didnt generally appear in the WTT as far as I can tell, however, the Supplement No.2, Ist July 1974, for the 6 May- 6 Oct 1974 Conditional WTT shows a block working commencing 7-5-74 as:6M48 TuO 04.28 Avonmouth - Bloxwich via Dudley arriving 08.50 at Bloxwich, then LE to Bescot HS. Clearly, this was still running into July. The return working was as; ThO LE Bescot HS to Bloxwich, then 6V72 16.15 Bloxwich - Avonmouth via Dudley. it would seem to imply that the wagons were specific to the workings. That ties in with Andy's 6Z48 headcode. The above workings were not shown in the following 7 Oct 1974 - 4 May 1975 WTT. Any more on the fate of the wagons welcome! Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymozza Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hi Mike, thanks for that info regarding the size of the ingots bound for Bloxwich, memory must be better than I thought. those timings on the supplement must have been short lived, especially the early morning northbound, I only recall seeing it during school holiday time. Now has anybody got any photos of the train or wagons loaded from the 70's? cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hi Mike, thanks for that info regarding the size of the ingots bound for Bloxwich, memory must be better than I thought. those timings on the supplement must have been short lived, especially the early morning northbound, I only recall seeing it during school holiday time. Now has anybody got any photos of the train or wagons loaded from the 70's? cheers Andy Hi Andy I too would love to see any pics, especially in the Midlands, the MR article was the first I had seen of these I must admit Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium wagonbasher Posted September 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 20, 2012 JUst stumbled across this year old thread. very intresting traffic that seams to have escaped the members or anyones camera. Of great interest to the 'Black Country Blues' RM web project team. If anyone does have pictures or details of a reference please shout up Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium wagonbasher Posted September 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2012 As detailed in this thread there are general arrangement drawings showing wheel base. overall dimensionsd etc. A suitable underframe has been identified but would still require more details. Any one have or know of photo's of the 'milk round' zinc block train around Swansea, Avonmouth and Bloxwich. Not fussy just need a few more reference points. The Black Country Blues team have their work cut out making suitabe stock for Feb 2013 but very intrested for a post February show... Always nice to run something you cant buy. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 As detailed in this thread there are general arrangement drawings showing wheel base. overall dimensionsd etc. A suitable underframe has been identified but would still require more details. Any one have or know of photo's of the 'milk round' zinc block train around Swansea, Avonmouth and Bloxwich. Not fussy just need a few more reference points. The Black Country Blues team have their work cut out making suitabe stock for Feb 2013 but very intrested for a post February show... Always nice to run something you cant buy. Andy If you mean the Barrowmore download, you don't mean GA drawing, you mean diagram - the two are quite different animals. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Isn't it strange? There's actually a real wagon that looks a bit like the old Hornby R131 http://www.Hornby-railway-trains.co.uk/Rolling_Stock/Trucks_Wagons/R131_Girder_Flat_Wagon_4_Wheel_Load/R131_Girder_Flat_Wagon_4_Wheel_Load.htm Even the same sort of chassis! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Isn't it strange? There's actually a real wagon that looks a bit like the old Hornby R131 http://www.Hornby-ra..._Wheel_Load.htm Even the same sort of chassis! Well spotted. Seeing the mention of Mazak at the top of the thread, perhaps someone from Hornby visited Bloxwich and happened to see the wagons there. In light of more recent developments perhaps the wagons load could have been changed from wheels to replacement bogies.... cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I'd like to back up Andy's request for more details, I'm in the process of planning a layout of Bloxwich and these would make a very nice break from box vans in and out of the works sidings. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 This any use to you? For some reason I did not seem to have added it to my Flickr site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark Forrest Posted September 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 24, 2012 That's great - thanks. Looks like a TTA underframe would be a good base, with some alterations to the brake gear. Does anyone know what the floor of the wagons was like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium wagonbasher Posted October 7, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2012 This any use to you? For some reason I did not seem to have added it to my Flickr site. Brian Love the picture, can you date that - just roughly. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium wagonbasher Posted October 7, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2012 That's great - thanks. Looks like a TTA underframe would be a good base, with some alterations to the brake gear. Does anyone know what the floor of the wagons was like? I dont think the floor looks thick enough to be planked, You would say sheet steel.I dont think there are enoughh rivits in the sole bar for it to have been open framed - if that make sence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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