Pre-ordering is their any point to it?

[darren01]

I have had on pre-order Kernows BTW, which I put my order in the day after it was announced, last year my bank card ran out and I contacted Kernows about it.

Then I found out my order had been put to the date my card ran out, so instead of being high up on the list, I was back down at the bottom.

Then I got told that they where selling them over the counter, to anyone that wanted one!

Also the class 22 was preordered and I have not heard one word about my order, even through they have been sold at Warley this weekend.

Maybe I am having a bit of a rant about this, but what is the point of preordering, when you can just go into the shop and get one way ahead of preordering

[Tase]

It can be annoying but I think its all down to timing really. What I mean by this is that its unfortunate that these new models have been released just before a major exhibition. Naturally, traders want to display the latest models at such an event.

Speaking to a couple of traders at Warley with whom I have pre-orders for loco's that were on general sale over the weekend that was the impression I got. Added to the fact that staff who would normally pack any pre-orders back at the shop may be at the show as well mean things may get delayed back at the shop.

A couple of plus points about pre-ordering though are that one can always cancel a pre-order and maybe more importantly the pre-order price may be lower than the actual selling price at the time of release.

[Oldddudders]

We are only on the nursery slopes of pre-ordering. For some years in the US, pre-orders have been used by some manufacturers to justify the actual manufacture of a model - too few orders means no model made. Whatever, pre-ordering must mean you actually get the model, whereas those of us who haven't may be unlucky. The credit-card thing is hardly the retailer's fault - if your card's gone bing in the meantime, he cannot know that until the day arrives. The alternative is that we pay in full when we make the reservation, and as that can be years in advance, that would not be popular, either.

[mike tugsandsheds]

I have to be honest and say Yes, I've missed out by not pre-ordering, but like now I have had 4 Pre orders all arrive at once

 

So I have a bit of an expensive pre - christmas.

 

I do however think that if you commit to pre-order then you shouldn't then see a model sold at a show for less than the price you agreed to pay at point of pre-ordering.

[Kris]

I do however think that if you commit to pre-order then you shouldn't then see a model sold at a show for less than the price you agreed to pay at point of pre-ordering.

Why? If the price went up would you expect to pay more?

When you pre order unless there is a promise that if the price drops you will pay that, then you are taking a gamble that the price won't drop.

[Oldddudders]

Currencies are very volatile these days. Any price set months or years before the product arrives has to include a safety-factor for the entrepreneur offering the product. I seem to have seen prices at one box-shifter which I know to be higher than they had offered pre-orders for, so you win some, you lose some.

[Kenton]

Pre-ordering - yes there is a point to it.

 

Besides sometimes being able to lock in a lower price it can sometimes be the only way to ensure you get a particular kit. A kit manufacturer has difficulty in determining demand. Especially the real demand over the forum frothing wishlists that never materialise.

 

But it is dependent on how well the manufacturer communicates. Items that you have pre ordered months ago with no followup of when it will be ready are very bad. Also the example you gave where the card securing the order goes out of date needs to be managed. A simple email or telephone call whe the card is refused is all that is required. The item should not be sold-on or put back into the general sale stock until you have a chance to offer an alternative.

[spamcan61]

In terms of run of the mill items from box shifters then 'you win some, you lose some' seems reasonable enough to me, but I can understand people being a bit cheesed off when they've shown faith in a commissioning party by placing an order years in advance, only to find the item on sale for a lower price before they've even got theirs. That's hardly going to entice people to invest/gamble on ordering commissioned models in advance inthe future.

[The Stationmaster]

As I have always understood I the whole point of pre-ordering is to make sure you get one (of whatever it is) although it increasingly seem to come with a price advantage although that is largely down - I think - to currency volatility the ever shrinking £. But it works the other way too - a month or so after they appeared I had quite a lot of difficulty finding any Hornby horseboxes in BR livery as quite a few retailers had sold their entire stock against pre-orders and I hadn't bothered to put one in.

 

And there is another side to the story too as I found out when talking to someone at Warley on Saturday. It seems that a recognisable and fairly consistent percentage of pre-orders are never taken up, even when customers are contacted at regular intervals after the stock has arrived and should, for example their card details have changed or they have simply cancelled the order. And that of course potentially leaves the retailer with unsold investment on his hands.

 

As far as price is concerned there effectively seems to be a market and it is - as ever - a variable one. I don't know how many people were selling D6331 at Warley on Saturday but one well known retailer was selling them for £10 (=8%) less than another retailer (who was selling the locos at, I think, his pre-order price). For all we know someone else might have been selling them at yet another price and I don't know how any of these prices compared with Liverpudlian pre-order - that's today's retail market and the particular consequence of release coinciding with a large show. But, as usual, the choice lies with the consumer (I think).

[Ian Fisher]

Going back a few years I pre-ordered the then to be released Virgin Voyager from a major rtr shop (non-Liverpool) basically from day one, my card details remained the same. I amde an attempt to keep in touch with the shop once I knew delivery was underway and having been a long while from placing the order, I felt it gave them the chance to refresh their interest and the chance they may have missed any orders.

 

Well christmas came and went and next up my Birthday in March, much to my suprise my partner had noticed that I was after a voayger and cos I had not bought one todate she suprised me with one. Now the upshot of this is the one she bought one from the same same shop as a casual order, where my eighteen or so month was yet to see anything.

 

A call to shop left me further confused as they claimed to have had only a small batch to sell all going to customers ahead of me in the que! when I asked how my partner bought one their reply was well if you have one whats it matter..I cancelled the order and as yet eight or so year on I am yet to buy anything else from the shop!

 

Ian

[mike tugsandsheds]

Why? If the price went up would you expect to pay more?

When you pre order unless there is a promise that if the price drops you will pay that, then you are taking a gamble that the price won't drop.

 

 

I appreciate your point but when I haven't even received mine at the Mag Subscriber rate and people could get this particular Model at Warley for less than that then that's not really fair. Especially when those who did not have a Mag Sub commited to buy at over £15 more than they were being sold for!

[Guest dilbert]

It seems that a recognisable and fairly consistent percentage of pre-orders are never taken up, even when customers are contacted at regular intervals after the stock has arrived and should, for example their card details have changed or they have simply cancelled the order. And that of course potentially leaves the retailer with unsold investment on his hands.

 

I find the the notion of not taking up pre-orders rather strange. When you place a pre-order you are effectively making a commitment, the expectation from a retailer & customer is that commitment will be honoured.

 

Of course, circumstances change - you may wish to cancel a pre-order if for example, if it is not supplied within twelve months. It may also be for financial reasons, but if possible, at least give the vendor a reasonable period of time so that adjustments can be made on his side.

 

When the article(s) arrive in stock and if you believe is overpriced, then raise the point with your vendor. He could have made a mistake/misinterpretations etc... - if you are a regular punter, then he will know you and will make the effort to adjust the price. Vendors love regular customers, because they are dependable - customers approve of vendors because they are dependable.

 

The banks profile you, so do the supermarkets - vendors do the same... dilbert

[iL Dottore]

...but what is the point of preordering, when you can just go into the shop and get one way ahead of preordering

 

That's all very well and good IF you have a decent model railway shop, relatively nearby. If you are NOT close to such as shop, chances are high your wished for model (especially if highly anticipated and awaited) might be sold out. Which is not good news if you want something from, say, a Dapol limited production run.

 

Hattons (and their pre-ordering system) has been an absolute godsend for me.

 

F

[cary hill]

Pre-ordering has and is working fine for me. I have just received a phone call from Kernow asking me to confirm that I still wished to go ahead with my Class 22 pre-order, as the livery specification has been altered from that originally specified.

 

I think, from reading the various Class 22 threads on here, this morning was probably the earliest that Kernow could have realistically contacted me - so top marks to them as usual.

 

I will be taking delivery of the Class 22, as it will enable me to retire one of my Silver Fox examples. I believe I can wait for a few more days for it to arrive as patience is supposed(used?) to be a virtue.

[Guest baldrick25]

 

I can think of one retailer where theres frequently a significant price difference between a pre-order price and over the counter. Therefore with the P&P on top still makes it cheaper than walking through the door. Presumably if you pre-order and arrange to collect you're even better off.

 

Preorder price at Kernows - £124.95 + post - even at the very launch of pre-ordering.

Sale price on Kernows stand at Warley £124.95

Sale price at other stands at Warley - just less than £100- not naming names but I got one reserved for me to collect, and the seller had an order for about £300 worth more of other new releases- some in stock- some advance. My local model shop has them at the same price today- on the shelf.

Cancellation of Kernows order today - still without any contact to say they are in stock or whatever.

 

To me, pre-ordering was totally pointless , except to say that had the pre-orders not been good then the model may not have been made, we are told.

So doing the market research by offering pre-orders was to cost me 30% more ... err I don't somehow think so.

 

All of the supplies at Warley came by exactly the same route at exactly the same cost to those selling them in the hall, so there's no question of those being airfreighted to justify the extra cost.

 

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to feel agrieved that I could buy one off the shelf, when my pre-order is still boxed up somewhere.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to feel agrieved that I could buy one off the shelf, when my pre-order is still boxed up somewhere.

I really don't see what on earth that has to do with anything?

 

As was discussed on another thread 'pre-order' means exactly what it says and not that you are necessarily going to get yours first, especially if they go into retail on the same day as orders start to be sent out. In fact it seems you proved that yourself by going out and buying one at the show where they had appeared and by finding someone who was selling them at a lower price than the concern you had pre-ordered with; and no doubt getting an example before those folk who might have pre-ordered with the retailer you bought from - maybe some of their customers are also feeling aggrieved?

[Guest dilbert]

I have pre-ordered items, when the price has yet to be fixed.

 

The confirmation via email comes back and the value of the item on the order is set to a value of £0.00.

 

When the item is eventually in stock I get really p1ssed off (not) as whatever the monies requested for purchase are higher than that was confirmed with my order... dilbert

[Guest baldrick25]

I really don't see what on earth that has to do with anything?

 

As was discussed on another thread 'pre-order' means exactly what it says and not that you are necessarily going to get yours first,

So the thread title is "Preordering is their any point to it?", and the answer would appear to be a big 'NO'. Still, the lesson was learned by me, and if traders and especially manufacturers want a commitment off me, then I want something better than is on offer now. Some other manufacturer / dealer will get my dosh, the ones that do listen to their customers, and that's what they are in business for. Maybe that's why the country is down the pan, there's no 'can do-will do' attitude, just a "give us your money".

[Ozexpatriate]

I live in the US and tend to pre-order UK stock because I can't predict when stock will arrive and be sure that I will be fast enough to order it when it does.

 

I also pre-order most of my US items, because my local hobby shop can't afford to stock everything anyway and pre-ordering is becoming a requirement for some items to be manufactured.

 

I am usually very pleased with this approach. I was amazed how quickly the Hornby SR (not BR(SR) ) Maunsell stock sold - despite the large variety that was made availalble all at once and was glad to have pre-ordered some at least.

 

Sometimes I have been disappointed. I recently purchased a very nice model of a SP GS4. It wasn't the livery I was expecting. The shop would have let me out of my commitment but I still felt compelled to make the purchase. It is a lovely model, just not exactly what I wanted. If I had first looked at it on a shelf I would probably have left it there.

 

The lead times for stock really are getting to the point where they are neck and neck with credit card expirations. This is a challenge for retailers to manage and clearly can lead to disappointment.

 

The trend to pre-ordering is very strong in the US. I think it will get stronger in the UK. It is something that can really materially help the high street hobby shops. It gives them much more predictable business in advance. Then when the item comes in, you can go to the shop, open the box and run it to make sure everything is al right. So long as quality/value expectations are met, pre-ordering offers a lot of benefits to everyone:

1. the consumer gets items they want and doesn't have to worry about small production volumes being sold out
   
2. hobby shops get predictable business
   
3. it doesn't require a 'mail order' transaction - you can still pick it up at the shop
   
4. manufacturers get an up front indication of demand
   

[The Stationmaster]

 

The trend to pre-ordering is very strong in the US. I think it will get stronger in the UK. It is something that can really materially help the high street hobby shops. It gives them much more predictable business in advance. Then when the item comes in, you can go to the shop, open the box and run it to make sure everything is al right. So long as quality/value expectations are met, pre-ordering offers a lot of benefits to everyone:

 

I wonder? While it is a tiny sample this thread shows that there is some lack of confidence in and dissatisfaction with pre-ordering in Britain although it has to be noted that expectations of instant despatch etc are probably a bit optimistic when companies are devoting a lot of resource to a major show. The other problem is one of maintaining commitment when another retailer tempts with a lower price - a substantially lower price in the example quoted by Baldrick.

 

So perhaps - as cancelled pre-orders tend to suggest - we are not quite sophisticated enough as a market for it to really work here and I think we would take badly to the situation where we are going to be told that 'we'll go ahead if there are enough orders' because past experience of that often means no more is heard of the project. Equally while known sales, via pre-orders, are one thing that does not improve the retailers' cashflow and will a bank manager regard such orders as security for loans to cover the cash gap in a business?

 

And somehow I don't think ideas such as 'part payment on account' or as a deposit are ever going to sit easily in the UK market against, in particular, unknown quantities in terms of productions standards and timescales. As far as I'm concerned if a manufacturer doesn't think his product is worth his while investing in its development why the heck should I give him any of my money for that purpose? You might think that's a bit old-fashioned but I've seen enough firms and projects pass from the scene over the years to suggest my money is best kept in my pocket until the goods are there to be exchanged for it.

[Ozexpatriate]

And somehow I don't think ideas such as 'part payment on account' or as a deposit are ever going to sit easily in the UK market against, in particular, unknown quantities in terms of productions standards and timescales. As far as I'm concerned if a manufacturer doesn't think his product is worth his while investing in its development why the heck should I give him any of my money for that purpose?

I quite agree. Pre-ordering with some up-front committment by the consumer is fraught with problems. The pre-ordering I am talking about is that without an up-front financial committment.

 

(I experienced a situation where I pre-ordered something from a company in Australia. They charged a deposit on my card but nothing materialized. I foolishly did not make copies of the letters I sent them and still have to sort this out.)

 

My pre-ordering varies between what I do via mail-order (for UK items) where I am providing my credit card for them to charge when the item ships, and a verbal committment at my local hobby shop - which does have the downside for the retailer where people are no-shows when the item arrives.

 

How many of us are regular customers of a hobby shop where the proprietor knows whether or not he/she can trust us? That becomes part of the equation.

[Guest dilbert]

I quite agree. Pre-ordering with some up-front committment by the consumer is fraught with problems. The pre-ordering I am talking about is that without an up-front financial committment.

 

(I experienced a situation where I pre-ordered something from a company in Australia. They charged a deposit on my card but nothing materialized. I foolishly did not make copies of the letters I sent them and still have to sort this out.)

 

My pre-ordering varies between what I do via mail-order (for UK items) where I am providing my credit card for them to charge when the item ships, and a verbal committment at my local hobby shop - which does have the downside for the retailer where people are no-shows when the item arrives.

 

How many of us are regular customers of a hobby shop where the proprietor knows whether or not he/she can trust us? That becomes part of the equation.

 

Last point first - ask the proprietor the question - if you are a regular customer, the reply might determine on how you wish to continue in dealing with said vendor..

 

The upfront commitment is an interesting one - from customer and vendor perspectives. Maybe the 'art' of gazumping could be reduced with a more formalised view of the txn ? It's something that has plagued the UK housing market for several years, borne out of greed more than anything else... dilbert

[Black Sheep]

my experience of pre-ordering is when I know a model is coming out and I know I want it, I put an order in for it with the shop so that I know I'll be getting one.

 

I did think about pre-ordering the recent MR sentinel shunter, although I chose not to due to not having a 00 layout and having just sold off most of my stock except a couple of items, as I can't see when I'll next be working in that scale.

 

Had I been modelling in 00 still I would have pre-ordered as I like a variety of small shunters and to expand that, would have welcomed a sentinel, and that would have been a sure way of getting one.

 

as it happens, I've bought one for my dad for christmas, purely because it was available, had it not been, I'd have found something else.

[The Stationmaster]

How many of us are regular customers of a hobby shop where the proprietor knows whether or not he/she can trust us? That becomes part of the equation.

I know what several retailers do in the situation where trust is not honoured by the customer - one simply refuses to take any more pre-orders from the miscreant unless they can come up with a really good explanation (he also automatically pre-orders for some customers without them needing to say anything and they just go along at intervals to collect what's arrived, with no quibbles about taking it or not ). Another I understand operates a system where forgiveness is followed by forebearance and then if it happens again the shutter drops while the other plays it by ear varying between the methods of the other two. In all cases of course the retailers will have ordered stock against the pre-order and sometimes, e.g a continental item ordered specially, they can take a while to get shot of it if the pre-order isn't honoured.

 

Presumably you need to be a good judge of character if you are to survive in the model retail world.

[Guest baldrick25]

I know what several retailers do in the situation where trust is not honoured by the customer - one simply refuses to take any more pre-orders from the miscreant unless they can come up with a really good explanation (he also automatically pre-orders for some customers without them needing to say anything and they just go along at intervals to collect what's arrived, with no quibbles about taking it or not ). Another I understand operates a system where forgiveness is followed by forebearance and then if it happens again the shutter drops while the other plays it by ear varying between the methods of the other two. .

 

and what happens when the model is substantially different to the announced item against which a pre-order was made. eg the current Dapol class 22 D1000F - Its a different loco number and in a different livery? The retailers you know wiill now 'ban' the buyer because he no longer wants it.

That sort of policy is short sighted because quite simply the money will go elsewhere , and so will the trade for the other items needed - like track , accessories and a lot more than one loco sale.