Pre-ordering is their any point to it?

[Black Sheep]

I would expect that to be an exception where the retailer will do one of three things:

 

either accept that some people will decide it's not suitable for their layout,

or others may be persuaded with a slight reduction

or, in the example of commissioned models, the retailer made the decision for the livery change and presumably did assuming it would be a better seller as a result.

[The Stationmaster]

 

and what happens when the model is substantially different to the announced item against which a pre-order was made. eg the current Dapol class 22 D1000F - Its a different loco number and in a different livery? The retailers you know wiill now 'ban' the buyer because he no longer wants it.

That sort of policy is short sighted because quite simply the money will go elsewhere , and so will the trade for the other items needed - like track , accessories and a lot more than one loco sale.

If you read my post you would have noted my comment about an explanation and equally I'm sure the others would point out that what has arrived is different from the original order and ask if you still want it? Presumably you know of some who don't do that?

 

But this takes us back to the point made by Andy in the other thread about the situation which retailers are placed in. What if the unwanted pre-order is a £350 continental loco from a range the retailer doesn't normally carry - he still has to pay for it and he might not deal regularly in continental stuff (which was in fact the case), he still has to carry the debt if the wholesaler won't take it back or it might cost him even if the wholesaler is accommodating (which he wasn't). If I pre-order I regard it as a commitment to buy what I have ordered so if it is supplied I buy it; if it isn't supplied to the spec I ordered then I have never yet been expected to take it. I have been dealing with this particular person for over 40 years so there is clearly a mutual level of trust that has developed over that time, even if it makes me cough (as it did last year when almost all of the Hawksworth coaches, plus a loco, had arrived by the time I popped in to collect them).

[big jim]

 

 

I appreciate your point but when I haven't even received mine at the Mag Subscriber rate and people could get this particular Model at Warley for less than that then that's not really fair. Especially when those who did not have a Mag Sub commited to buy at over £15 more than they were being sold for!

 

that will be me then!!

 

the only reason i preordered the drs 37 was to guarenteed id get one, not bothered about getting it before everyone else, just wanted it so make sure i would get it, ok im a bit narked i could have got one on sunday off the shelf for cheaper but i didnt know 100% if i was going to warley, to annoy me more (as i pointed out in the other thread) i on the spur of the moment ordered 47501 too at £55, that was on sale for £50 at warley

 

kernow did look on their system to see if my loco order had been processed yet, which it had, had it not i would have simply walked across the isle to model rail and picked them up there and then

 

as pointed out in the other thread, the flipside to not preordering is not getting one, cue modelzone "experiment"

[newbryford]

my experience of pre-ordering is when I know a model is coming out and I know I want it, I put an order in for it with the shop so that I know I'll be getting one.

 

That's the advantage of the interweb these days. Information usually appears just before the actual release and that's often my cue to pre-order. recent examples have been Bachmann wagons at approximately £2 below the "normal" on-line price once the item is in stock. (Two wagons and I've saved the postage cost).

 

I have two items on pre-order at the moment for three reasons. I know they're imminent because a) the manufacturer posted photos here. B) yesterday, I've just seen the actual production model ahead of the main delivery. c) I want it and don't want to miss out (especially if I have a feeling that everyone else wants one and a good judge of that is by the froth here on RMWeb).

 

Cheers,

Mick

[darren01]

 

As far as price is concerned there effectively seems to be a market and it is - as ever - a variable one. I don't know how many people were selling D6331 at Warley on Saturday but one well known retailer was selling them for £10 (=8%) less than another retailer (who was selling the locos at, I think, his pre-order price). For all we know someone else might have been selling them at yet another price and I don't know how any of these prices compared with Liverpudlian pre-order - that's today's retail market and the particular consequence of release coinciding with a large show. But, as usual, the choice lies with the consumer (I think).

HI

 

And this bit;Sale price at other stands at Warley - just less than £100- not naming names but I got one reserved for me to collect, and the seller had an order for about £300 worth more of other new releases- some in stock- some advance. My local model shop has them at the same price today- on the shelf.

Cancellation of Kernows order today - still without any contact to say they are in stock or whatever.

 

Now that I have read this I am really the class 22 has been on order from day one and then they where selling them a Warley and cheaper than the pre order I placed for it!.

The other thing I do not understand is when my card ran out why was my detail not just adds to my original order instead of starting a new one?

Also as Kernow had only part order on 30587 and could only sort out a few of the per orders .why where they selling them a Warley?

I have still not heard a word about any of my orders!.

I may as well go up to Warley then I would have got my two locos, no fuse.

[PaulRhB]

As said by several the pre order is just to make sure you get one and none of them guarantee a better price by doing so. Some will do it as an expression of interest so you don't enter the contract on the price so they don't risk a loss if the curency has shot up.

I've had mixed results from pre-ordering, The Accucraft electric 16mm scale W&L Countess wouldn't exist if enough of us hadn't pre ordered to get the production to go ahead, I had regular updates when there was significant news or possible dates. In OO the Dapol weathered JNA's were a year late, no-one knew anything about dates until a couple of months before release and now they are £4 cheaper than when released. Didn't put me off Dapol because it was the first issue I'd had among several releases recently that were done perfectly on time.

You win some and you lose some but at the end of the day I ended up with the models I wanted and was happy with the product. Unfortunately with such a muddied supply chain on many commisions, Developer, factory and shop there are many possibilities for error or delay along the way. If you have an issue then the best first step is a polite letter or email to the shop the order is with to give them a chance to explain or follow up with the producer. Mistakes happen so getting dropped to the bottom of the list just because of card details changing could probably be sorted if the issue is highlighted politely to the manager.

I've rung a shop and changed details but subsequently found they hadn't changed it on the system after recieving a letter, I phoned up and after explaining recieved a very nice apology and found my goods were held for a limited period to give time for me to respond even by mail so I wasn't at risk of losing them.

[Guest jim s-w]

It's a gamble. You either pre order and have to wait and see if what you get is any good. Or you wait and see and risk them selling out.

 

It depends a bit on the manufacturer to some extent. Bachmann, yes. Heljan - not until the devil takes up ice skating!

 

There have been so many models that have been wide of the mark it's little wonder the Market confidence is somewhat low. It helps if you have been arround a bit too. Let me give you an example.

 

Currently there is a new class 33 arround for pre-order, made by Heljan and spec-ed by the person who approved the first 33. Along with all the early Heljan diesels that is until distribution of Heljan products was reportedly taken off them due to complaints about their dire customer service.

 

So we have someone asking for pre-orders on a model, with the same promises the production one had, from the same person with a history of getting things wrong and bad customer service - wonder why people are nervous?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Andy Y]

Chris Trerise has come back to me after reviewing the topic as follows:

 

I have read the pre-order thread with some concern today. We do have robust systems in place for pre-orders where cards are declined, with a two-stage process which has been outlined in our newsletter and on our website many times. On first receipt we go through all the pre-orders and process all the orders which can just be done instantly. Then we go through the orders for a second time and start phoning and emailing anyone where there was a problem on the first sweep.

 

The reason for the two stage process is to get as many orders straight out the door as possible to try and minimise the number of calls and emails we get saying "where is my order?". As you have mentioned in another thread there has been a huge number of models released in the last week or so and just this morning 47 people have emailed to ask "where is my order". Answering those questions inevitably delays how quickly we can actually get on with processing orders so we always try and process as many orders as possible to prevent the question arising to begin with.

 

With the Well Tanks we have actually been through all the orders for K2052 and K2053 at least twice now and left phone messages and emails. We are still working our way through the K2051 orders but I should point out many people do contact us as soon as they receive a new card and this avoids them having to wait. We did take all three of these Well Tanks to Warley and quite a few people collected them having had them on pre-order. There was no reason not to take them as they are not yet sold out, although there are not many left available for sale. All those with a pre-order remain held and we continue to work our way through them. We have been giving a regular update in our weekly newsletter about this.

 

The Class 22 is a slightly different situation in that information was posted that they all left Dapol and were delivered on Friday. In fact as of today we still do not have our delivery of these. We were given a small number on arrival at Warley. We had many of these pre-ordered but as the specification has changed since it was announced we have to contact every single person with a pre-order to establish if they still want this particular version. Given how many people ordered this version because they wanted a plain green model it is no surprise to us that many are not taking up their pre-order but we are still working our way through the list and have almost completed this.

 

A glance at our newsletter last week will show just how much new stock was received from the manufacturers, most of it Tuesday and Wednesday, and we have also had to deal with attending Warley exhibition, so I hope people will understand that it may take a day or two longer to clear any outstanding issues. All of our staff have been working extremely hard and long hours to achieve this and to maintain our high standard of packing and order processing.

I will investigate the two specific orders refered to by Darren01 and Baldrick if they give you their consent to share their identities so that I can find out the situation with their orders.

[Guest baldrick25]

My position was made clear in post #16 in this thread, and post #428 in this thread http://www.rmweb.co....2/page__st__425

 

I know what was said to me by Kernow on the 17th November- " the van was packed, ...... and there was absolutely no chance I could collect a pre-order at Warley for D1000F", DapolDave contradicted that by saying that he had personally contacted all dealers to take along some of the not-pre-sold ones for sale by dealers, but I know what was said to me by Kernow, and repeated several times as I queried it. I made a point at Warley of meeting DapolDave and having a chat, in case there was anything he might not want to say in a public forum, but left feeling it was a 'take it or leave it' situation.

Well sometime next week wasn't good enough for me!

I made a point of heading for Kernows stand as soon as the doors opened at 9am , as much to see what else was new as well as viewing the weathered samples. Imagine my surprise , when D1000F are on sale , on the stand right in front of me.

After the call to Kernow on thursday 17th Nov , I had telephoned another retailer who was at Warley , and asked if he would have them , and received an honest answer . They were expecting to recieve some on the day , and one would be reserved, together with other items that I had already pre-ordered with them behind the stand - and at a very good price.

..... and it was.........

Now that's service - a promise made - a promise kept.

To me pre-ordering comes with the tag 'priority customer' . It would appear that Dapol held onto the D1000F to try and gain as much publicity as possible presumably. There was no reason why , as far as I can see , Dapol would not have been able to despatch their 'commited' orders off to the dealers in plenty of time with the embargo that they not be postal despatched until the day before Warley, so the customer in most cases would have had them on the same day as Warley customers, the same day they became an off-the-shelf item. Dapol could have also insisted they not be on sale off the shelf until after Warley, after all it is Dapol's dealer network they are dealing with.

Lets do a comparison with subscription magazines- I take out a subscription so that I get it postal delivered either on the day of public release or in most cases , a couple of days before. Would I want a subscription to a mag and it be always 10 days after I could get it in WHS... There maybe others who find getting to a WHS difficult , and would want it in any case.

Lets do a comparison with booking in advance for Warley , I knew I was getting in at 9am , 30 minutes before the on-the-day tickets, and saving a few quid. Had the terms been the same , I would have waited to see I wanted to go anyway, and bought on the day.

I have used the pre-order system with quite a few dealers in the past , and the item has always been in the post , on the day it went on the shelf, and usually at an advantageous price. Witness the claytons, Bachmann Warships, Heljan Westerns, Lion, Falcon, modelzones Ltds, and a whole lot more. I have always been more than satisfied, with those deals , so pre-ordering is as much the norm for me , as window shopping.

There's always those that will disagree , but that's my stance. There has to be something in it for the customer if the manufacturers want my commitment, otherwise I'll wait till they are on the shelf.

 

Edited to correct spelling , grammar, clarity etc.

[Andy Y]

It would appear that Dapol held onto the D1000F to try and gain as much publicity as possible presumably. There was no reason why , as far as I can see , Dapol would not have been able to despatch their 'commited' orders off to the dealers in plenty of time with the embargo that they not be postal despatched until the day before Warley,

 

I'm afraid that's not correct. I spoke to Dave on Wednesday afternoon, just after the airfreighted batch had arrived. Dapol hurried proceedings along to get at least one batch in for the weekend as opposed to delaying anything. Therefore it would be exceptionally difficult for your suggested process to happen.

 

Can we please cut folk some slack here; last week was a very fast paced one for a lot of people with numerous businesses trying to please as many people as possible for as much of the time as possible and therefore the comparison to a magazine subscription is irrelevant. It's also relevant to add that few or none of the other products you mention coincided with a major event.

 

Chris has been spending time to talk to me and try and see if there have been any problems surrounding the problems brought up in this topic and it's fair to say that in the other case the misunderstanding is wholly upon the shoulders of the customer but I cannot state publicly why that is so.

[Guest baldrick25]

I trust that this is not aimed in my direction:-

Chris has been spending time to talk to me and try and see if there have been any problems surrounding the problems brought up in this topic and it's fair to say that in the other case the misunderstanding is wholly upon the shoulders of the customer but I cannot state publicly why that is so.

[Andy Y]

I did say "in the other case" didn't I?

[The Stationmaster]

It might be pertinent to report my experience. On Friday 18 November I spoke to Kernow by 'phone at approximately 09.35 and said that I understood they would have D6331 available for sale on their stand at Warley however the person I spoke to was clear that they had not received any and that none had been loaded in the van which had set off for the Warley show. I then explained what I had read on here (from Dapol Dave) and that I understood it to mean that some would be delivered to Kernow at the NEC and I would be obliged if a message could be got to their folk at the show asking them to keep one for me if it turned out that they did in fact receive some; and that is exactly what happened.

 

After eventually managing to find the Kernow stand I bought a loco which had been kept on one side for me - at that time I wasn't aware that another trader was selling them for £10 less but that would in any case have been irrelevant as someone at Kernow had gone to the trouble of passing on my message and another someone had acted on it so in my view service like that they deserved my business.

 

The only problem was that, due to other purchases at the show, I didn't have room to carry my pre-ordered but totally unexpected 'Cornish Riviera' coaches set so that will either have to come by post or I shall use it as an excuse to make a day trip to Cornwall to collect it (which, with punctual trains, will give me an enjoyable day out on the train, time to walk to the shop and back, and hopefully fit in a quick pasty lunch).

[beast66606]

Amazing devices those telephonery things ...

[Catkins]

I can see one or two issues with a pre-order system that its being used in it's most common form, that is -

Customer - "Hmm, I like that. Can I have one when they come out?"

Retailer - "Certainly, can we have your card details to hold one?"

Customer - "Yes, they are blah blah blah"

 

At no point has it been agreed that this is a contract to supply and purchase, at any price - If the traders and manufacturers could agree a price range, and then take a percentage of that price as a deposit, that would then focus peoples minds a bit, as it would then be governed by various trades acts, that would protect both the trader and the consumer.

 

In its common form of Pre-Order, there is no definite agreement that the model being pre-ordered is the specification that will be delivered in the time frame quoted, so it is not worth the paper it is not written on!

 

If I were to pre-order, then I would expect to pay a percentage up front, as a deposit - but I would also be expecting the model that was delivered to be to the specification that was ordered!!

Now where's the smaller manufacturer?

[NGT6 1315]

Well, this kind of discussion has also cropped up several times on German model rail forums over the past two or three years, in the light of some producers offering German models having taken to smaller production runs with the option of doing re-runs if required. These discussions also considered the fact that Roco in particular had eventually put releases which had not sold all that well originally on sale at a later date, for prices which often were vastly reduced - these sales then obviously attracting much larger numbers of buyers. Of course, the fact of Continental models mostly being significantly more highly priced than typical UK models was another contributing factor for many modellers asking themselves whether they might not be better off taking the chance of not pre-ordering at the original time of release, but then possibly obtaining their models of choice several months later at 30 to 40 bucks off.

[Guest jim s-w]

Strikes me some people are making assumptions here that are unreasonable.

 

Pre-ordering a model ensures you will get one. it does NOT ensure you will get one FIRST. If someone has pre-ordered something and then throws their toys out of the pram because others have got them before them thats their choice - if they choose to cancel its their loss too.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Guest baldrick25]

Pre-ordering a model ensures you will get one.

 

I think you will find it doesn't ensure that you get one - I've been caught in that trap with Modelzone, only to be told they didn't have enough delivered to fulfil orders- then found them on sale in other branches off-the-shelf.

So , as the thread title "Pre-ordering is their any point to it?"

...... Its not a guarantee that you will get the order

.......its no guarantee when you get the order

.......Its no guarantee that the price will be at the price agreed when ordered

........Its no guarantee that the item supplied will be the one specified at the time of ordering.

....... It just seems to have no purpose at all

[Talltim]

The only time I pre-ordered (an Atlas GP40(2W)) I had two children and the retailer retired before the model came out! I haven't bought one and i can't see myself pre-ordering again. The retailer themselves was professionalism itself, sending me a letter (from America) when my first card expired and again when they retired, although I woud have been quite happy with emails

[Ozexpatriate]

"Pre-ordering is their any point to it?"

...... Its no guarantee .... etc

• That you will get the order
  

Perhaps not ironclad, (only because the item might never appear or some kind of logistical gaffe with a credit card) but it's works pretty reliably for me.

• When you get the order
  

Or anybody else for that matter - this is mostly up to the manufacturer's release timeframe. Who cares if you don't get it first.

• That the price will be at the price agreed when ordered
  

Perhaps occasionally, but in my experience, irregularities in price are unusual. Excepting mail order, I do not usually pre-agree on a price. My local hobby shop gives me whatever discount he is able to give with the particular distributor.

• That the item supplied will be the one specified at the time of ordering
  

Sometimes that can happen. I've had it happen where a livery was not clearly defined by the manufacturer at the time of ordering. Yes, this happened recently with Kernow but they gave people the opportunity to opt out if they wanted to.

• It just seems to have no purpose at all
  

We're all entitled to an opinion. Mine's different.

[Will Vale]

I agree with several posters above, I pre-order things occasionally that I'm confident that I really want, and the online retailer I use means whatever it is will arrive over here shortly after the UK release date. Occasionally it works out very well in my favour, such as when the prices of some items at delivery are a bit higher than they were anticipated to be, and the retailer opts to honour the lower price.

 

If I'm not confident I really want it I wait to see what it looks like from other posters on here, or manufacturer's pics. I haven't been disappointed yet.

 

I wonder if we'll see pre-order incentives along the lines of those common in my industry (videogames) - pre-order customers often get extra stuff, soundtracks, or the option to pay more for "collectors' editions" of new titles. They would be more work to produce, but "limited edition has buffer-beam details factory-fitted, and comes with a booklet on the prototype" is at least conceivable.

 

Will

[NGT6 1315]

I agree with several posters above, I pre-order things occasionally that I'm confident that I really want, and the online retailer I use means whatever it is will arrive over here shortly after the UK release date. Occasionally it works out very well in my favour, such as when the prices of some items at delivery are a bit higher than they were anticipated to be, and the retailer opts to honour the lower price.

 

If I'm not confident I really want it I wait to see what it looks like from other posters on here, or manufacturer's pics. I haven't been disappointed yet.

 

I wonder if we'll see pre-order incentives along the lines of those common in my industry (videogames) - pre-order customers often get extra stuff, soundtracks, or the option to pay more for "collectors' editions" of new titles. They would be more work to produce, but "limited edition has buffer-beam details factory-fitted, and comes with a booklet on the prototype" is at least conceivable.

 

That also is basically my approach to pre-orders.

 

As for your last paragraph - I remember Roco have done several "platinum" releases in the past, where the model in question would, for example, represent an uncommon livery for the class in question, or a specific loco which stood out in some other way - such as a speed record. These specific models would usually feature a CD or DVD with things like prototype information, video clips and other extras.

[Black Sheep]

Although I didn't pre-order, and I know it's not an appraisal thread but I feel compelled to share my experience of Kernow's service

 

I bought one of the Model Rail sentinel shunters online on the thursday evening, putting my work address as it's not possible to get parcels delivered to my home address. On Friday I got a phone call as payment had failed (my fault for putting work's address which didn't match my card) the staff were friendly, polite, took my address, processed my payment and the parcel arrived on the saturday.

 

Quick, happy, friendly and efficient.

[NGT6 1315]

To expand on what I've been reading about the pros and cons of pre-ordering on German forums: There also is another dimension to this question, namely that of various manufacturers having produced a number of models which many modellers were positively looking forward to, but then turned out to be inaccurate to a degree which cannot be explained by compromises which may have been technically necessary while creating the toolings. One recent example which appears to be causing much disappointment would be Fleischmann's DR class 41 "Reko" which is reported to have a number of issues which I personally do agree make it questionable whether a SRP of about 350 € (302 GBP) can be justified. These issues include the slope of the frontside skirt being too shallow, cylinder steam pipes having a square cross section rather than a round one, the cab being welded rather than riveted, wrong headlights having been installed, and the tender apparently lacking the upper white light which should be present on a post-war 41.

 

This, of course, means that to obtain an accurate model, a significant amount of surgery and add-on part purchases will be required, pushing the total investment even higher. I could imagine that if the model's initial price was that of a typical UK steam loco, there would be much less objection as the margin for post-purchase surgery would be larger. So in any case, the uncertainty whether or not a new release will be reasonably accurate for the prices which are commonly asked over here is, in a nutshell, another important contributing factor for German modellers often being unwilling to place any new pre-orders.

[royaloak]

To me pre-ordering comes with the tag 'priority customer' .

Why?

A pre-order is just that, it is NOT a priority order.

If there are 30 pre-orders and only 30 models arrive then you will get one, if on the other hand 35 models arrive then 30 will be put back and the other 5 will be put in the shop for general sale straight away, if you then walk in the shop you will be able to buy 1 immediately and before the pre-orders are processed.

What you are suggesting is that the 5 spare models should sit in the back of the shop out of sight until all the pre-orders are dispatched (and possibly given time to arrive at the customers) before going on general sale, keeping stock back like that is not good business sense and how would you feel if you walked in the shop to buy a new model to be told "yes we have them in stock but cannot sell you one until all the pre-orders are sent out", or how would you feel if you had pre-ordered one (late on) and went to collect it (knowing its in stock) to be told "sorry you cant have it yet as there are people who ordered before you that take priority and when theirs have been dispatched you can have yours", if that happened (which in a round about way is what you are suggesting with your "priority" status) I dont think you would be very happy.

 

Kernow got more models than had been pre-ordered, the surplus were taken to Warley for general sale (which is the whole point of them going to shows in the first place) while the rest are in the shop (or on the way there) ready to be sent out as quickly as is possible after all they dont want stock taking up room if they can help it.