Was this common?

[The Stationmaster]

Just about everywhere had it's own shunting horse if you go back far enough. Before WW2 the Railways owned 20000 horses and probbaly more than that in pre-group days.

 

The vast majority of those horses would have been for road delivery vehicles and not shunting. At a small station all you needed was a few men and a pinchbar or two and you could move almost any 4-wheel wagon - especially the older types - empty or loaded. The Railways would not have bothered to keep expensive horses to do work which could easily be done by far cheaper manpower.

[asmay2002]

The vast majority of those horses would have been for road delivery vehicles and not shunting. At a small station all you needed was a few men and a pinchbar or two and you could move almost any 4-wheel wagon - especially the older types - empty or loaded. The Railways would not have bothered to keep expensive horses to do work which could easily be done by far cheaper manpower.

 

You are certainly right that the railways used their horses for Road delivery but I think that the same horses in many places were used for both tasks (I stand to be corrected on this).

 

Having said that the GWR owned 150 "shunting horses" in 1892 and hired many others from local contractors. There was even a joint LNWR/GWR horse at Hereford. Bath had 3 (2 goods and one passenger for moving slip coaches) . (Source Great Western Horsepower)

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Didn't Bath, on the GW, have its own shunting horse? Seem to remember seeing pictures of it. Also, in Ireland I recall that the Sinfona(?) branch was horse-worked into the '50s. All my reference books are in the UK, so I can't be more accurate than my memory, at present.

Yes, its stable was right next to the mainline.

 

There is a picture of it in a book on railways around Bath (probably one of Ivo Peters), where the caption delightfully states that the horse is "on shed".

[melmerby]

There was even a joint LNWR/GWR horse at Hereford.

Who owned which end?

 

Having said that the GWR owned 150 "shunting horses" in 1892 and hired many others from local contractors.

 

The 1936 General Appendix still describes how to couple to vehicles when using a shunting horse.

 

Keith

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The caption to the photo states that the loco is running through at 'line speed'. I wonder what that means as at the time I would think that this photo would be a plate camera and the emulsion speed would dictate a blurred loco.

[The Stationmaster]

 

The 1936 General Appendix still describes how to couple to vehicles when using a shunting horse.

Keith

Although it applies the same methodology to tractors and capstans of course - i.e. it's a common Instruction for all modes (and is basically the 1907 Instruction with a few alterations plus the addition of tractors). It appears to have survived unaltered until 1960 (when it vanished from Regional publication) by which time I would think the western was well out of using hrses for shunting; it would be interesting to learn when the last one was used by the Company/Region.

[AMJ]

IIRC there is one of the British Transport films that has some horse shunting on it. On the film I have seen the horse has a harness with a chain on the back which ends in a hook. This hook was attached to a chassis member at the side of the wagon and the shunter had his pole ready in the brake lever to add the extra umpfh to pin the brake down firmly.

 

A good brewery dray horse would probably be ideal motive power for a demonstration shunt. Shame that the stables closed a few years ago at one local brewery - but then they didn't have good ale. I think that there are owners of working horses that would be willing to do the shunting as it would be something different to what they normally get up to.

 

There are many photos and I think I have an old piece of film on a DVD of Elephant shunting in India. They tended to pushrather than pull wagons.

[Happy Hippo]

Although not railway related I know Horsetan will like this.

 

When we moved into our present house in 1994, there was (and still is) a 12 acres smallholding directly opposite.

 

The chap than ran it, cycled there every morning and then proceeded to do everything with horse power.

 

Over the years my son and I were taught how to prepare the 'oss' for work, to plough, roll and flail ground using horsepower.

 

In return, we'd make sure his fowl were let out in the morning and used to keep a general eye on the place. On many occasions we sorted the horses out as well.

 

We were also to help him on the agricultural engineering side of life and did quite a few repairs and replacements to his ageing fleet of machines.

 

His favourite horse, Jim, had had to be put down about 6 months prior to his death, and he'd paid for him to be cremated.

 

So when John died he too was cremated and we had their combined ashes scattered along the banks of the stream that ran through the middle of the smal holding.

 

Sorry to have gone totally off topic, but when he died, a little bit of historical working practice died with him.

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

PS all his 'stuff' was gifted to the Acton Scott Trust in Shropshire.

 

edit for spelling

[Bernard Lamb]

The caption to the photo states that the loco is running through at 'line speed'. I wonder what that means as at the time I would think that this photo would be a plate camera and the emulsion speed would dictate a blurred loco.

 

It is August 1938.

The 35mm camera and fp shutters were invented some time before this.

Looking at the wagon it looks to have a screw coupling so I take it to be vac fitted.

No such signs of the horse being so equiped.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

IIRC there is one of the British Transport films that has some horse shunting on it. On the film I have seen the horse has a harness with a chain on the back which ends in a hook. This hook was attached to a chassis member at the side of the wagon and the shunter had his pole ready in the brake lever to add the extra umpfh to pin the brake down firmly.

 

This is getting very close to what's involved. Firstly if a horse (or capstan) is used to move wagons the point of attachment is either to the solebar (if a hole is provided there) or to what some modellers call the 'W iron', the axleguard which in some cases also had a hole for a hook. The wagon coupling is not used because it would increase the angle between whatever is pulling and the wagon itself.

 

If a horse is used common sense dictates that it does not pull from the four foot but from alongside (hence my earlier comment about ground conditions) because that reduces the angularity of the rope between the horse (or capstan etc) and the wagon thus making it easier to get underway. The other - far more important - reason for keeping the horse out of the four foot is the matter of stopping; basically once you've got a wagon moving it is very easy to keep it moving, the whole principle of a pinchbar is simply to get the vehicle moving and not to keep it going. The problem in fact is stopping a moving wagon hence the need for someone to keep one hand on the brake lever and, usually, use a Brake Stick to properly apply it with sufficient force to stop the wagon(s) - only idiots would use a Shunting Pole for that but there were plenty of idiots about - some of whom were no doubt carted off to hospital in order to have large splinters of Shunting Pole removed from various parts of their anatomy after it had broken while trying to pin down a brake lever (the pieces tend to fly in all directions, at speed). So it would be rather daft to put the horse in the four foot except where no alternative was available.

 

And before anybody says anything some large yards had specially strengthened Shunting Poles which were not only suitable for use on brake levers but were strong enough for Wagon Chasers or Shunters to ride on them. As fas as I'm aware such poles were never on general issue.

[Ravenser]

It is August 1938.

The 35mm camera and fp shutters were invented some time before this.

Looking at the wagon it looks to have a screw coupling so I take it to be vac fitted.

No such signs of the horse being so equiped.

Bernard

 

I'd have thought it would probably be "medium format" 126 at that date? (Think press photographers with bellows cameras in any period drama)

[jamie92208]

This is getting very close to what's involved. Firstly if a horse (or capstan) is used to move wagons the point of attachment is either to the solebar (if a hole is provided there) or to what some modellers call the 'W iron', the axleguard which in some cases also had a hole for a hook. The wagon coupling is not used because it would increase the angle between whatever is pulling and the wagon itself.

 

If a horse is used common sense dictates that it does not pull from the four foot but from alongside (hence my earlier comment about ground conditions) because that reduces the angularity of the rope between the horse (or capstan etc) and the wagon thus making it easier to get underway. The other - far more important - reason for keeping the horse out of the four foot is the matter of stopping; basically once you've got a wagon moving it is very easy to keep it moving, the whole principle of a pinchbar is simply to get the vehicle moving and not to keep it going. The problem in fact is stopping a moving wagon hence the need for someone to keep one hand on the brake lever and, usually, use a Brake Stick to properly apply it with sufficient force to stop the wagon(s) - only idiots would use a Shunting Pole for that but there were plenty of idiots about - some of whom were no doubt carted off to hospital in order to have large splinters of Shunting Pole removed from various parts of their anatomy after it had broken while trying to pin down a brake lever (the pieces tend to fly in all directions, at speed). So it would be rather daft to put the horse in the four foot except where no alternative was available.

 

And before anybody says anything some large yards had specially strengthened Shunting Poles which were not only suitable for use on brake levers but were strong enough for Wagon Chasers or Shunters to ride on them. As fas as I'm aware such poles were never on general issue.

 

That's good to read. We ha ve just had a very amusing evening's talk at Wakefield by our club secretary who spent two summer holidays working at the Coalite plant in Grimethorpe. His job involved shunting internal user wagons, mainly by gravity, to unloading points for delivery onto conveyors to load lorries. He made the same point about brake sticks and shunting poles and had some very amusing tales to tell of moving very badly maintained wagons that didn't want to move. As an aside there was also the case of the obnstroculous lorry driver who insisted on parking his lorry where he was told not to and got the cab filled with coke when the conveyor started.

 

Jamie.

[N15class]

I would like to know how it could be done in model form.

 

A stunning film clip, I thought it had gone onto Indian ralways when the elephants appeared.

[coachmann]

Ravenser said :

I'd have thought it would probably be "medium format" 126 at that date?

Probably a typo on your part but just in case, medium format was 120 using negative sizes 6X9, 6X7, 6X6 AND 6x4.5. Format 126 was smaller and found in domestic cameras. Bellows and twin lens cameras were popular with pressmen.

 

I saw a DVD the other day where a sturdy horse was used for moving goods vans etc. It may have been on the East Lancs preserved line.

[coachmann]

I always thought they used hippos to do the shunting.

 

Kangaroos tried but wagons used to jump the points. Elephants used on some trunk routes. Male lions were used on some mane lines but they were hard to train. Gorrilas were not a success when they aped humans.....They were always on strike.

[N15class]

Kangaroos tried but wagons used to jump the points. Elephants used on some trunk routes. Male lions were used on some mane lines but they were hard to train. Gorrilas were not a success when they aped humans.....They were always on strike.

 

So how much modelling time did this take up? Brilliant!!

[Coach bogie]

Didn't Bath, on the GW, have its own shunting horse? Seem to remember seeing pictures of it.

 

Yes. It features in some of Ivo Peters photographs. It was used to shunt the wagons in the confined spaces at each end of Bath Spa Station. Locomotives could not easily do the job as there was only wagon turntables, not point,s to feed the unloading area. One of the duties was to shunt coal wagons to drop shutes, on the London bound side, which had a a small 50 cm-gauge wagon tramway system on the low level. The horse had it's own "shed" now demolished. The horse was retired in 1959.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[coachmann]

Was this common?One horse power

Aye, it were reet common. Posh yards used Camels (Welsh yards used Llamas)....

[ForestPines]

Ravenser said : Probably a typo on your part but just in case, medium format was 120 using negative sizes 6X9, 6X7, 6X6 AND 6x4.5. Format 126 was smaller and found in domestic cameras. Bellows and twin lens cameras were popular with pressmen.

 

Being something of a camera collector, I have to say that the original photo looks far too sharp to be a prewar 35mm camera. It's possibly a good 120 camera, but more likely to be a small sheet film camera.

 

(126 didn't arrive until the 1960s, for entry-level Kodaks)

[coachmann]

Claud 8787 was one of the Royal engines. The leading coach is of Great Northenr origin and appears to be a double ended brake. LNER modellers might care to note that white roofs didn't stay white (on the two leading coaches).

[Jub45565]

Just to nit-pick, but I believe (possibly incorrectly - usually the case when attempting to be a smart alec...) that the average horse is actually 2.5 horse power, as 1 horse power was defined around a shetland pony.

 

Therefore most shunting horses would be more tha 1HP.

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I'd have thought it would probably be "medium format" 126 at that date? (Think press photographers with bellows cameras in any period drama)

Probably, but 120 rather than 126 as others have pointed out.

I mentioned 35mm as that would give a faster shutter speed than a 6x6 at that time.

Re the wandering into the realms of other animals.

The Rothschild family tried Zebras at Tring for pulling carts. No record of them being used for shunting.

Snape Maltings is I presume a prime example of horse shunting as I do not see a way that a loco could have got through the arch and then over the wagon turntable with a 90 degree turn.

Bernard

[N15class]

LNER modellers might care to note that white roofs didn't stay white (on the two leading coaches).

SR ones didn't either.

[Grovenor]

The wagon coupling is not used because it would increase the angle between whatever is pulling and the wagon itself.

Trouble with railways, there's always an exception.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=391958&nseq=5

Regards

Keith

[Worsdell forever]

Looking at the wagon it looks to have a screw coupling so I take it to be vac fitted.

No such signs of the horse being so equiped.

 

Air braked surely, well, certainly a positive pressure rather than vacuum