RichardEyre Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Hi, Everyone, I've had the spark of an idea for a small shunting plank, with the possibility of exhibiting at some unknown future date. The size is 4'x1', split into two 2'x1' boards for storage. This is the plan I've come up with: Trains will enter from the fiddle yard, consisting of a shunter and 2 wagons. The fuel and parcels sidings fit 2 wagons each, and the warehouse fits 1. There will always be 3 wagons in place across the 5 spaces, 2 of which will be taken back out with the loco. The type of wagon will determine where it needs to be left. So, my questions are these: have I messed anything up that makes shunting impossible? can you see any improvements? and, perhaps most importantly, do you think it will be fun (and challenging) to operate? Thanks in advance, Richard P.S. I know that the point crosses the board join as drawn, that's my error in AnyRail and will be fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big James Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Such a blinding track plan. I find small layouts are more fun to operate then big ones Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 Thanks, James - I've got a slow day at work to blame for that. I have a permanent layout, but that's a passenger station so there's not much scope for shunting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I like it - the track design is very similar to that of my Yorkford, PA layout - see link below - which I find enjoyable to operate. The only thing I'd say is that you might find the single track fiddle yard restrictive - I ended up with an add-on fiddle yard, makiing it longer than 4ft overall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 Wow, Rod, that is very similar. Just the orientation of 1 siding difference. I had toyed with a traverser for the fiddle yard but moved away from it for simplicity of building. I plan to simply lift the wagons out and run the loco back to the front, before adding new wagons on the back. How do you find the operation with the traverser? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I don't think the FY matters as long as it holds loco+2 it works and could be cassette based. I think to operate it requires the run round loop to hold 2 wagons - there may be a clearance issue there? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sheep Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 would cassettes work for the fiddle yard, can turn the cassette round to send straight back in or swap out for another train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 do you think it will be fun (and challenging) to operate? In a word yes, they can be fun and quite absorbing. Personally I didn't worry to much about the fiddle yard on Drewry Lane http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/5331-drewry-lane/page__fromsearch__1 I kept it at a single track though did make a short 6" add on extension. In practice having a single track hasn't proved a problem when exhibiting. You don't mention era, stock, etc but assume it's going to be mainly short wheelbase stock. The loop looks OK for something like a couple of vans and the headshunt OK for an 08/Pannier sized loco. If you could squeeze another 3" extra on each board it would give you the chance to run a wider variety of stock. Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Thanks for the input guys. Kenton - yes, you need to block points and use the run around to operate. I've got a 100% print out that I've placed stock on and I think I can actually fit 3 wagons in the loop, but it was only designed for 2. Sheep - I had planned on only using 1 loco for this layout so I'm not sure about switching to another complete train. Also I wanted to randomise the sequence between the 3 industries, so I'd rather not send the exact same train straight back. Rather than rail for the fiddle, I think I'll use angle section or something to make placing stock really easy. Perhaps Kaddees to allow lifting them straight up vertically. Stu - Era is around 1956-60, before road traffic took over. I snapped up a green 03 on sale yesterday so that's going to be my main motive power. Stock is currently all 4 wheel box vans, conflats and tanks, but I'm open to suggestions. What stock do you have in mind for this extra 3"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Extend the line back through the warehouse through the backscene and into the fiddleyard itself so as to be able to have different wagons emerging from it? Personal comment: a decent selection of wagons will keep interest up for both operator and spectator. The same 6 or 7 wagons trundling in and out may get dull, whereas 15 or so adds variety. You could even throw in the googly of a longer wheelbase one that's equivalent to 2 smaller ones... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Great little plan, potential lots of shunting moves Im planning a random card based shunting system for my layout (see link below) which could work on this design. This should comprise a card for each wagon with the wagon type and livery marked on it, a card for each loco with the loco class, number and livery and a number of cards for each part of the layout (probably equally the max amount of wagons that the siding can hold), The cards will be randomly selected and the moves carried out. So for instance I could select a J50 loco, 2 brown vans, grey lowmac, brown van, grey plank open, ex LMS Brake. Siding cards could be parcels dock, 2 loading dock, warehouse, loading dock. Id then make up the train in the order drawn and shunt the wagons in the order the sidings cards were drawn. Returning stock to the fiddle yard would be by selecting random cards from the already drawn cards. I reckon that sending 2 trains of stock out on to the layout at first would start up good operating session running forwards on a 1 train in, 1 train out system Needs a good bit of work to fine tune but with a good selection of stock it could prove fun! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 HI Dave, I like the idea of extending through the warehouse, but I worry I'd use it as a cheat's way out and just push stock through instead of shunting it properly. I'd considered using longer stock, such as GUVs but it's a new era to me, so I don't know what stock would be appropriate. My big layout's set in the present day, so it's easier for me to find the right stock whereas this is entirely before my time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hi Richard, Just thought I'd add a few of my thoughts here most of which pretty much agree with other members comments... Yes, it's a nice plan I like small layouts, and I prefer shunting layouts - they're more fun It's surprising how much time passes when you're simply shuffling a few wagons about..... THe most important thing though, is that the layout is fun for you..... Re the fiddle yard, I can confirm the single track fiddle works well on Drewry Lane, as with several other layouts You could always consider using a couple of cassettes instead that will give you more flexibility. But don't forget the humble Peco Loco-Lift which essentially acts a bit like a cassette.... One thing struck me, looking at your plan You may be able to create a (slightly) longer siding on your fuel unloading road by substituting the two points at the back, with a slip? Just a thought...... Also, re the Warehouse road I would definately run that through to the fiddle yard you could make your single fiddle road into a sliding sector-plate, but that's not essential.... It doesn't matter if the warehouse road isn't connected directly to the rest of the fiddle again, you could employ cassettes, a loco-lift, or simply lift wagons on/off that road either way, it will give you greater flexibilty and added operational interest.... Hope you have something more to think about Cheers and keep us posted Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hi Marc, I've quickly swapped them for a slip in AnyRail and you actually only gain about an inch, but the run around gets tighter because of the shallower diverging angles. Those wye turnouts are deceptively short and steep (24 degrees). Given the (real world) cost of slips, I think 2 points would be more likely to be installed in this kind of location, but I'm sure others will let me know if I'm wrong. I like the warehouse extension idea, but I'm not sure about new wagons appearing through the warehouse the 'wrong' way (from the viewer's perspective) from the fiddle yard. Did you have anything in particular in mind for how that link would be used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hi Marc, I've quickly swapped them for a slip in AnyRail and you actually only gain about an inch, but the run around gets tighter because of the shallower diverging angles. Those wye turnouts are deceptively short and steep (24 degrees). Given the (real world) cost of slips, I think 2 points would be more likely to be installed in this kind of location, but I'm sure others will let me know if I'm wrong. I like the warehouse extension idea, but I'm not sure about new wagons appearing through the warehouse the 'wrong' way (from the viewer's perspective) from the fiddle yard. Did you have anything in particular in mind for how that link would be used? Hi Richard, Sometimes, on a small layout, it's worth trying out ideas that give you only a little extra siding space.. ... it can work for you, and add apparent operation, or even just the illusion that the whole thing is a bit more spacious but as you say, the cost of a slip is higher... Re the new wagon appearing from a warehouse you could also consider an unloaded wagon entering, and a fully loaded wagon emerging a short while later.... could be a nice touch.... I didn't have any further ideas re the link, but it's worth taking a look at some prototype pics, or even just pondering some more ideas for a while too... let us know what you decide... One good thing about rmweb, is that not only do others contribute ideas and info, but it does motivate you, when people like me pester you for progress too TTFN Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 I see what you mean about space, even if it doesn't increase capacity. Maybe there are tweaks to be had without switching to a slip... I had not thought of loaded/unloaded wagons, but like that idea a lot. I may increase that siding to allow 2 wagons (they'll fit even without the link to the fiddle) to balance the sidings so it doesn't matter what wagons enter. Currently I'll have to be careful to only send 1 destined for the warehouse at a time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I like the idea of this, I am attracted to this sort of layout at exhibitions. I'm with Dave and Marc on this regarding using the warehouse to add interest. If the whole layout appeared to be part of a larger works complex then swapping or adding a load to a wagon would give the impression of goods in or out. The loads could be sheeted or containerised if you wanted leave things a bit vague, which would let the viewers use their imagination as to what the factory produces, cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 I definitely think that swapping wagon loads is the way to go on the warehouse. I'm considering adding a working door to hide the hand of god. I imagine it would either sliding or roller shutter? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 . .....If the whole layout appeared to be part of a larger works complex then swapping or adding a load to a wagon would give the impression of goods in or out....... The loads could be sheeted or containerised if you wanted leave things a bit vague, which would let the viewers use their imagination as to what the factory produces.... cheers Yes indeed, A successful small layout usually "suggests" there is more railway beyond the confines of the visible area.. Tall buildings, which hide entry/ exit points which are additional to the "main" fiddle entrance / exit are useful in creating this illusion Although again, it can sometimes be a tad overdone..... One strength of this plan, is that should you choose to exhibit the layout, both fiddle exits are on the same side of the layout, meaning you don't have to keep running back & forth to fiddle yards at opposite ends..... You could easily extend that siding to be the same length as the main fiddle after all, no one is going to see it from the normal viewpoint... That will increase the amound of fiddle area, and trust me, at an exhibition, you need it...... One question for you too sir... Will you be using the electrofrog versions of the short peco points? Although they are a tad more fiddly to wire, smooth operation is much improved over the crossing vees..... TTFN Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Yep, all code 75 electrofrog. My main layout has Marcways copper clad points so I'm comfortable with wiring for a live frog. I don't think dead frogs are really an option on this one since the 03 is so short. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Richard, the easy way with changong stock on the fiddle track is double length loco lifts and a "fiddlestick" on which they sit - look on http://www.carendt.us for details. As a long time "Micro-layouteer" - although I use US srock- I lke the layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardEyre Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 The only issue I have with the loco lift is that it's too long for just the wagons but not quite long enough for the whole train. 2 together wouldn't fit within the board and I really want to keep it to a 4' footprint. I've never seen a loco lift in the flesh, can they be cut down to length, or would that ruin them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Wow, Rod, that is very similar. Just the orientation of 1 siding difference. I had toyed with a traverser for the fiddle yard but moved away from it for simplicity of building. I plan to simply lift the wagons out and run the loco back to the front, before adding new wagons on the back. How do you find the operation with the traverser? I llke using the traverser, mine is operated by hand and I align the tracks by eye. As you can see from the photo it's a simple job. The main problem was getting the horizontal track alignment with the main board. In my case, lifting stock on and off is easy because with Kadee couplers, you can just lift straight upwards without having to 'twist' as with the hook and bar type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 The only issue I have with the loco lift is that it's too long for just the wagons but not quite long enough for the whole train. 2 together wouldn't fit within the board and I really want to keep it to a 4' footprint. I've never seen a loco lift in the flesh, can they be cut down to length, or would that ruin them? Hi Richard, The loco lift is a pretty neat idea I use one on my "Wales, Rails, Rain & Steel" layout it's hardwired in to the layout (so sound locos don't suddenly cut out) and it works pretty successfully for me I glued a stop to one end (as I didn't need to reverse anything) and I found it was hard to glue plastic to... I used superglue, and rocket powder - which seems to have made a good joint... Soldering was also a bit trickier, and it really needed to get hot for a good bond I have seen folk using 2 of them joined together, but forgot to ask what their findings were regarding strength of joints... Joining one and a half of them together should be no more of a problem.... but it could be a pricey mistake if you ruin one...... Of course homemade cassettes would just cost you a length of track and offcuts of wood, for 2 cassettes...... Let us know what you opt for Cheers again PS. I'm enjoying this thread - it seems like all the contributors are joining in with the build Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Sorry to wander off topic a bit, but has anyone found an imaginitive way to incorporate some sort of passenger facilities into a layout a little bigger than this? I'm trying to come up with something that I can run all, or at least most, of my EM stock on, and it includes passenger stock. I've got a board 5ft x 1ft 6in that I could use as it is, or cut down, so would have room for something similar to this design, with maybe another line running along the back, but a loco and two bogie coaches would be half the length of the layout! I've got a mix of early 1900s and 1930s/40s GWR, a B Set, two Hornby clerestories, two auto-trailers and a Lima diesel railcar, so a one coach train, or some sort of carriage shed/sidings might be an option I suppose. It could be on a higher level, so sidings could disappear under it to save having to build lots of factories and warehouses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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