RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hello all - I'm finally completing some basic revamps of Hornby 57' bow-ended stock which have been in and off the workbench for years. Can anyone shed any light on the placement of the roof handrails? All the prototype photos I have seen, in Russell and on the web, are side-on and make it a little difficult to tell what's going on. On both the brake and corridor coach, Hornby seem to have modelled a single handrail on or near the top of the roof but my guess is that they should be in pairs, equally offset down the sides, similar to the arrangement on the Bachmann Collett stock. Would that be correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 They had 4 roof handrails, similar to the Bachmann Collett stock but longer. If I was you I'd log onto the Comet web site and see if they make the same diagram that you are modelling. then download the pdf instructions and you will have a roof plan to work from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Taz, I must disagree. The Hornby 1925 stock, D95 Brake Third and E127 Compo only had two roof mounted grab rails placed central in the roof. I appreciate that the Comet plans show different but they are wrong. The four grabs common to the Bachmann stock did not become standard until the 1930's. RCTS and HMRS photo collections have photographic evidence as did measuring and crawling over the D95 at Bodmin and the E128 (Brake version of the compo) at Tyseley some years back. The position on the original Hornby model is correct. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Mike, Do you have the Russell books? If so take a look at Volume 1 of the coaches appendix. On p90 there is a picture of a D95 clearly showing that it has 4 grab handrails. On p139 there are pictures of E127 showing the same On p140 there are pictures of E128 showing the same. So the question is does this mean were they subject to modification throughout their lives or where different lots constructed with differing arrangements? EDIT: Or have I misunderstood you and the way I am looking at pictures? Re reading your post I now understand that you mean central to the roof you are talking at the high point of the roof. I was mistakenly thinking you meant the mid point of the coach, halfway between the ends. The pictures in the Russell tomes do show what you have said. I have just missenterprited them and seen what I was expecting to see. For that I apologise and didn't mean to give out any false information. I'm guessing Comet probably made the same mistake I did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Barry Ten, When you get to forming the handrails can you post how you did it please? Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted October 21, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Thanks all. Khris - I aim to form them using Gibson 0,45mm handrail wire; will post pics on my blog when done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Roof detail photos are rare to find as most views are side on or 3/4. Some of the best evidence available and used for research are the official GWR views taken at Old Oak from high up and from Paddigton footbridge which give excellent roof detail shots of carriages and as most GWR sets were not uniform, comparisons can be made between types and eras. Cover of the Great Western Echo for Summer 1983 has a supurb view of OOC carriage sidings in 1939 from above with lines of carriages varing from new to forty years old, showing grab handle variations over the different diagrams.. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I've looked at some of Peter Gray's photograph albums published by Ian Allan. On 24th August 1957 he photographed a train at Ivybridge of which the second vehicle is a C54 coridor second W5149W. This coach, a member iof the D95/E127 family, has two pairs of handles as per the Comet drawing. The photo is in "Steam in Devon" which has no page numbers. The image is the 24th in the book excluding that on the title page. On the back cover of "Steam in Cornwall" the illustration is of a Looe branch train comprising a 2xE140 B set and a C54 strengthener. Guess what: that C54 has one pair of handrails on the centre line of the roof as per Hornby. So much for standardisation on the GWR! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi BT Have a look on the Comet Models web site click on GWR coach kits & sides in the PDF views, the info' in them could be what you are looking for. Regards 81C The Comet site just adds to the confusion. The 1925 stock pdf diagrams has two pairs of short, off centre grab rails yet the assembled model photo of the same coach has been built with the two long grab rails in the centre line. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 For Collett corridor stock, Comet instructions show none (e.g. C46), two long pairs (e.g. C54) or two short pairs (e.g. C67). The rationale of the Comet instructions would seem to be: - 1923-5: none - 1925-34: two long pairs - 1934 onward: two short pairs although as Mike points out, the Comet builds for some of the early Colletts do not always reflect their instructions. The ubiqitous C54 certainly had a long build window (1925-29), the E127 less so. That would seem to indicate that there was a change (1926-1928?) from a single pair of long (between ribs) roof-centre grabs to the offset long two-pair arrangement, the latter at some subsequent time (1934?) becoming short, as per this D118, although preserved coaches are probably not a great historical guide, particularly for roofs: I cannot apply any logic to the Collett non-corridor stock situation at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted October 25, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2012 Bit of a work in progress, but thought some shots of my two bow-ended coaches might be of interest to anyone looking at a similar upgrade to the Hornby model: Basically, 1970s era Hornby with new chassis swapped from cheap models obtained 2nd hand/damaged, SEF glazing, MJT corridor connections, new roof vents and Dart Castings battery boxes, and Keen close-coupling systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Basically, 1970s era Hornby with new chassis swapped from cheap models obtained 2nd hand/damaged, SEF glazing, MJT corridor connections, new roof vents and Dart Castings battery boxes, and Keen close-coupling systems. As far as I can tell, the E127s lost the second ventilator per compartment very early in their lives, if they were built with them at all. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 ....with new chassis swapped from cheap models obtained 2nd hand/damaged, Barry Ten. What were the donor chassis from please? This is a worthwhile upgrade. Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted October 27, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 Barry Ten. What were the donor chassis from please? This is a worthwhile upgrade. Rod Hi Rod - They're from the current release of the Collett coaches, available in either the Railroad or Thomas ranges. Hornby were quite clever in that they kept the chassis as they were on the original models, but provided the correct style bogies with an offset mounting point. I bought my coaches in the 70s when they were fitted with Mk1 bogies. Adrian - thanks for the tip about the vents, not sure I have the heart to carve off the surplus ones now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Thanks for the info Barry Ten Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The correct pattern bogies were a late 1980s improvement (the Gresley coaches were given the correct pattern bogies a year or two before). They also lower the whole coach down compared to the BR1, which is another bonus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I have been checking into the grab rails and can shed some light. As built the 1925 style Collett stock (as Hornby) were all built with two long grab rails positioned centrally on the roof. The reason for this was the method of roof construction at the time, using wooden plank offcuts covered in canvas. This required a specific framework with the strengthening points being located at the top and the grab handles fitted to the main roof spars. This design continued with subsequent batches through to the artic sets and 1929 Cornish Riviera/Torbay stock, the later still having central grabs in the late 1930’s. It has been suggested to me that these sets were more likely to be kept under cover at Old Oak, extending the roof life. In the early 1930’s (1932 is the earliest accurate dated photograph I have), roof construction changed to a steel sheeted based roof with the strengthening spars being located in relation to standard size metal sheets as per the Bachmann Sunshine stock. The new style roof comprised three sheets over the arc riveted/screwed (dependent on the design) to the roof spars. Much of the older stock, now in general use, required major repairs by the mid 1930’s, equivalent to a modern ½ life overhaul. Dependent on the roof condition, some of the early Collett stock received new roofs. These are recognised by the two parallel seams running the full length of the coach were the steel sheets met. At the same time the two long central hand rails were replaced by the 1930’s style two sets of shorter pairs (as per the Bachmann coach style). In addition some new ventilators were fitted in a revised position, higher up, just off centre as the original position was too close to the butt joints of the metal sheets. Again looking at photographs of complete trains from above shows coaches with corridors positioned on the same side have ventilators do not all line up. I have looked at the coaching register and sadly, the roof modification details are not recorded. Photographic evidence shows that the original centre line two grab handles were still in regular use, well into BR days and the md 1950’s when scrapping of older coach designs began. Another reason for the ‘improved’ grab handle arrangement was a question of safety. The primary reason for the handles was for the placing and flipping of roof boards. (some set trains roof boards with return workings on the reverse) the shorter twin pairs were placed in a more sensible position for two members of staff to switch the boards with one hand and reach the board with the other. The early 1930’s was a period where the GWR encouraged staff to be safety conscious and welcomed suggestions that would benefit employees (and reduce sick days/injuries). The central mounted grabs were clearly not fit for this purpose. The new shorter twin pairs design would have been adopted as practical, but only when the previous design was life expired. Back to the Hornby and the original question. The Hornby bodies are correct as built, and possibly as withdrawn. Compared to other diagrams, they were built in larger numbers, so the will be variations. From the 1930’s, some had new metal roof replacements where the Bachmann style grabs were fitted, but there will also be butt joint lines, where the three sheets per arc, met. I hope this helps Now back to some modelling. I have a H39/40 twins body shells ready for detailing. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 3, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2012 An excellent and informative bit of research there, Mike - I bet I'm not the only one who'll find that useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Having re-acquainted myself with the Hornby mouldings, their grabs are not at the central apex of the roof. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Having re-acquainted myself with the Hornby mouldings, their grabs are not at the central apex of the roof. I admit I have not put an exact measure on the mouldings. I have just measured the brake which I have been using for my comments, it is approx 22mm from each cantrail - fairly central to me http://www.ehattons.com/36007/Hornby_Model_Railways_R4524_GWR_Brake_Coach_Railroad_Range/StockDetail.aspx However the current compo moulding only has one offset handrail, heavens knows where that came from. I have not come across that variation (yet) http://www.ehattons.com/36006/Hornby_Model_Railways_R4523_GWR_Composite_Coach_Railroad_Range/StockDetail.aspx The diner shell, I have, has the twin pairs. Diners are a whole different story due to alternate positioning of the roof spars due to the various roof tanks, gas flues etc.and usually have additional grabs for the drinking water fillers. On dining cars with a central kitchen, staff had to crawl along the roof top from the ends in order to reach the fillers, the idea of combining filler pipe/end handail to enable tanks to be topped up from rail height, not reaching Swindon unitl the 1940's. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2012 Hi Rod - They're from the current release of the Collett coaches, available in either the Railroad or Thomas ranges. Hornby were quite clever in that they kept the chassis as they were on the original models, but provided the correct style bogies with an offset mounting point. I bought my coaches in the 70s when they were fitted with Mk1 bogies. These look like a quick and straightforward upgrade project then.Can you change the couplings easily on the recent releases .How easy would it be to carve off those curly handles and fit Comet etched ones I wonder. I the assume the glazing is product SE58 on this list. http://www.sefinecas...ndows Table.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 These look like a quick and straightforward upgrade project then.Can you change the couplings easily on the recent releases .How easy would it be to carve off those curly handles and fit Comet etched ones I wonder. I the assume the glazing is product SE58 on this list. http://www.sefinecas...ndows Table.htm Another option is to replace sides with Comet to produce all the other variations (10 different coaches using the same length/profile from memory) Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2012 Another option is to replace sides with Comet to produce all the other variations (10 different coaches using the same length/profile from memory) Mike Wiltshire Yes any of the 57' ones would fit the Hornby body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Another option is to replace sides with Comet to produce all the other variations (10 different coaches using the same length/profile from memory) Mike Wiltshire Unfortunately, Comet doesn't make sides for all the variations: E127(left hand) compo - Comet and Hornby E127(right hand) compo - none E128 brake compo - Comet D95(right hand) van third - Comet and Hornby D95(left hand) van third - none D94 van third (I don't know whether there were handed versions of these) - none C54 third - Comet K38 brake van - Comet H33 restaurant compo - Comet and Hornby Did I miss any? The A19 van first (ex articulated stock) was also approximately the same length and can be made with Hammond sides on a Hornby coach. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Tony Hammond also produced the D94. Worsley Works original H33 (and the artics) BSL/Phoenix (they were happy to sell sides only as well as complete body kits) make all the missing items on Adrians list. Getting SRG to sell them is another story. Code Description Corr Diag WC3 Third C54 WC1 3 Compartment Van Third R/H D94 WC2 3 Compartment Van Third L/H D94 WC9 4 Compartment Van Third R/H D95 WC8 4 Compartment Van Third L/H D95 WC4 Composite L/H E127 WC5 Composite R/H E127 WC10 Brake Composite E128 WC7 Compo Restaurant Car H33 WC6 Passenger Brake Van "Ocean Mails" K38 Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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