Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

As it happens, I've spent much of today with the latter type of iron, despite my intention of getting on with some etched and whitemetal kits...

[richard i]

You are all missing the point. It is not women who statistically have a higher pain threshold, but gingers...and there is medical research data to prove it!

Edited November 13, 2017 by richard i

[rowanj]

The attached photo shows my completed Dave Alexander Q7 on the first corner of Little Benton Sidings to get some scenic work. The bridge is an adapted Scalescenes, and the 3rd rail is prototypically correct. Fitting this makes loco building childs play.

 

The embankment is hanging basket liner - another idea stolen from Tony. I don't have hairdressing clippers to shave it, so long it shall be. If I was modelling the scene today, I would need hundreds of gorse and buddleia bushes.

 

Incidentally, the kit is a combination of etched brass and white metal and was soldered with a combination of low melt and 140' solder. Over the last few years I have taught myself, by reading hints and tips and watching videos, how to do it, after a fashion. That didn't stop me melting a piece of N5 backplate yesterday, but hey, that's what car filler is for...

 

John

Edited November 13, 2017 by rowanj

[Lecorbusier]

 It's definitely not for me because I'm not a skilled enough modeller. This is not false-modesty, just fact. 

Tony,

 

What particular aspect makes you say this?

 

I can fully understand the sentiment if the goal is to run express trains in excess of scale 60mph on a large layout ... particularly if the aim is to exhibit. St Merryn if I recall is a small terminus station where everything is slow moving?

[Headstock]

The attached photo shows my completed Dave Alexander Q7 on the first corner of Little Benton Sidings to get some scenic work. The bridge is an adapted Scalescenes, and the 3rd rail is prototypically correct. Fitting this makes loco building childs play.

 

The embankment, incidentally, is hanging basket liner - another idea stolen from Tony. I don't have hairdressing clippers to shave it, so long it shall be. If I was modelling the scene today, I would need hundreds of gorse and buddleia bushes.

 

Incidentally, the kit is a combination of etched brass and white metal. Over the last few years I have taught myself, by reading hints and tips and watching videos, how to do it, after a fashion. That didn't stop me melting a piece of N5 backplate yesterday, but hey, that's what car filler is for...

 

John

 

Very atmospheric.

[rowanj]

Very atmospheric.

Thanks,Andrew. Atmospheric? Up in the loft today, to quote Red Dwarf, it was cold outside with no kind of atmosphere...

[KieranH]

I see the soldering issue has reared its head again.

I too was also very hesitant when it came to soldering. A few tips from Tony and some scrap to practise with at the Wigan show, then attending the show at Peterborough and getting some practise in on a brass wagon with Geoff Haynes (coupled with watching Tony's right tracks DVD on youtube) showed me that alll it takes is a bit of practise and it'll improve (if only the same could be said of my trombone playing..). now just to wait for the man in a red suit to come so I can get my hands on that London Road Models N1!

 

Would my layout currently on the go live up to the standards of the layouts I see at shows or the likes of Little Bytham or Retford... for now, no, but with more practise as time goes by who knows.... I do feel in the minority though, I see many a younger modeller these days with the inprovements in r-t-r stay in the out the box and plonk it on world.... not wanting to bring that one up again!

[Anglian]

I find this conversation about people not soldering a wee bit upsetting. A question to Tony, did all the children you taught art have the ability to draw a human hand which I understand to be one of the hardest parts of the human body recreate on paper?

 

 

 

Drawing a human hand is a much harder task than soldering two pieces of metal together. Assuming a modest degree of manual dexterity the latter can be taught to anybody. The former is a cerebral activity – learning to draw is mostly training your brain to register what the eyes are really seeing. The brain is generally lazy and it looks for the easy way out by telling the hands that it already knows how to represent x, y or z. The hands take over and approximate what is in front of them. If you force the brain to take control of the process then you spend more time looking and less time making erroneous marks. The looking bit is hard as you have to make the eyes answer tricky questions then the brain has to remember the answer, without lapsing into cheating mode. The problem is the questions are never consistent unlike in soldering. The best at drawing have finally tuned minds but not necessarily finely tuned hands.

 

We were actually taught to solder at art college, in sculpture class. Nobody had any problems learning and there weren't great yelps of pain from self-inflicted burns. Some went on to learn welding. There was no discernible difference in the skills between the male and female students in soldering or welding class, in fact one of the most proficient welders was a young lady. Nobody gave up or gave in, that was simply not an accepted option and would have resulted in failing that part of the course.

 

I do however think there is a very real fear that soldering is some mystical dark art that requires a talent. It is this fear that convinces some that they can't possibly learn how to solder – defeated before they've even started. If you can cook a meal from scratch without cutting yourself then I think you have enough dexterity to learn how to solder. Isn't part of the interest of the hobby about learning and developing a set of skills? 

 

As for being chumps – well I'd say that anybody who tries to paint a model assembled from metal is a chump for not cleaning and degreasing it, before applying a primer. Neither task is onerous and at least then you are priming metal rather than laying it over a film of grease, yet there are lots of folks who consider it an unnecessary bother.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Anglian

[t-b-g]

I do know people who have been soldering for years and can still just about manage to get two bits of metal to stay approximately together with a big blob of solder, which is attached to neither bit of metal firmly.

 

The truth is, soldering is much easier than many people think it is. Get the metal in the right place and hot, some good flux, the right amount of solder and you are away.

 

If anybody spent 5 minutes watching somebody like Tony Wright, or several others on here, they would soon wonder what they were worrying about. It is certainly much easier than drawing part of the human body well!

 

Those of us who can't understand why people struggle all learned it sometime and were once novices, probably scared of getting burnt. Some are self taught, some learned from watching others.

 

I have personally taught quite a few beginners how to solder. All can now solder to a reasonable standard and some of them quickly became very good indeed at it, having previously thought it next to impossible.

[gr.king]

I started learning to solder in my early 'teens when I went to the local model railway club and somebody stuck a soldering iron in front of me, after I'd watched him for a few minutes, and invited me to get on with making yard lengths of pcb-sleepered half-track. There was no need to point out the fact that the iron was hot, that much was obvious, and since he'd just been doing the job without burning himself why would I have had any worries about such things? Thinking before you act is a more than adequate way to avoid burning yourself with the iron.

[LNER4479]

I put my hand fairly and squarely on one (a soldering iron, that is!) when I was 14. Didn't put me off soldering but I have a healthy respect for the hazards involved

[johnarcher]

If women of all ages could solder all day in Ferrantis for a living, why do men think they are different?

True. When I was at school (long ago) the mother of a friend of mine got such a job. I don't think she had ever used any utensils other than the culinary, a bit of instruction and practice and she was away.

If someone doesn't want to solder that's fine, up to them, but the idea sometimes implied that it's an esoteric art that needs great talent and long training is ridiculous.

[Tony Wright]

Good afternoon Tony, in respect of the lack of bits and pieces of interest at the Spalding show, I fear that will also be the case at  Warley, with certain notable exceptions . in any event I will be attending on the Sunday, not least hoping to see Mike Edge's Fell loco going through its paces on the Leeds MRS Layout.

 

I will if I may speak with you, if you are free to do so ( last year there seemed a never ending queue in front of you)

 

best wishes Brian

Brian,

 

I'd love to chat to you at Warley.

 

I always seem to have a crowd around my stand, particularly if I'm trying to fix an ailing loco or (you've guessed it!) demonstrating soldering. Are they hoping I'll fail? 

[davefrk]

There is the problem of course that some people try to solder a kit with electrical solder and they think they don't need flux as the flux is in the cored solder, what a mess they make of a simple job and so they give up and say they can't solder. 

When I had the trade stand and sold the Carrs range of fluxes and solders I would try to help these people with advice and by showing them the right materials for the job, okay they may have thought I was just trying to sell stuff but some of the ones that did buy came back and thanked me for putting them right, they could now solder! I know of at least two of these people who now scratchbuild locos in brass and nickel silver and another who builds beautiful signals.

A little bit of investment in the right iron, solders and fluxes and you'll be wondering what you were buxxering about with multicore solder for.  Keep the multicore for the wiring.

 

Dave Franks

Who was taught to solder with a dirty great 75 watt iron by his Da.

[Clive Mortimore]

My most used tool when I worked at Marconi's as an assembly inspector.

 

Drawing a human hand is a much harder task than soldering two pieces of metal together. Assuming a modest degree of manual dexterity the latter can be taught to anybody. The former is a cerebral activity – learning to draw is mostly training your brain to register what the eyes are really seeing. The brain is generally lazy and it looks for the easy way out by telling the hands that it already knows how to represent x, y or z. The hands take over and approximate what is in front of them. If you force the brain to take control of the process then you spend more time looking and less time making erroneous marks. The looking bit is hard as you have to make the eyes answer tricky questions then the brain has to remember the answer, without lapsing into cheating mode. The problem is the questions are never consistent unlike in soldering. The best at drawing have finally tuned minds but not necessarily finely tuned hands.

 

We were actually taught to solder at art college, in sculpture class. Nobody had any problems learning and there weren't great yelps of pain from self-inflicted burns. Some went on to learn welding. There was no discernible difference in the skills between the male and female students in soldering or welding class, in fact one of the most proficient welders was a young lady. Nobody gave up or gave in, that was simply not an accepted option and would have resulted in failing that part of the course.

 

I do however think there is a very real fear that soldering is some mystical dark art that requires a talent. It is this fear that convinces some that they can't possibly learn how to solder – defeated before they've even started. If you can cook a meal from scratch without cutting yourself then I think you have enough dexterity to learn how to solder. Isn't part of the interest of the hobby about learning and developing a set of skills? 

 

As for being chumps – well I'd say that anybody who tries to paint a model assembled from metal is a chump for not cleaning and degreasing it, before applying a primer. Neither task is onerous and at least then you are priming metal rather than laying it over a film of grease, yet there are lots of folks who consider it an unnecessary bother.

I beg to differ.

 

First I can solder so I am not shouting about me, my post previous to the one you quoted referred to a job I had before I became a nurse where I would switch on my iron before taking my coat off. I am just a realist not everyone can do every thing despite how good the teacher is.

 

An example of this is my mate who cannot cut plastic card straight. I have shown him, and I have watched him and cannot see what he does wrong but it ain't straight.  I even taught myself how to do it left handed so he could mirror what I was doing...mine was straight, his well? He is a good model maker but this one thing he cannot do.

 

Here is something I find quite easy modelling wise. Can everyone else do this? 

[Tony Wright]

I find this conversation about people not soldering a wee bit upsetting. A question to Tony, did all the children you taught art have the ability to draw a human hand which I understand to be one of the hardest parts of the human body recreate on paper?

 

I know from my experiences in life I cannot do everything that people have tried to teach me. I remember my PE teachers face when he was trying to teach me how to throw the discus. He asked were all my family blessed with my inability to co-ordinate my mind and body, and I replied I don't think so as my dad's two brothers are PE teachers.

 

I have tried to teach people nursing procedures, simple ones like doing an aseptic dressing, and before losing it I remembered my PE teacher's face. Some people cannot master certain skills no matter how easy you or I think that task is.

Clive,

 

I think you've rather missed my point. If I may clarify it please? 

 

Regarding your question as to whether any kids I taught could draw the human hand, there were those I knew who'd master such a difficult task (or at least have a decent go at it) as they got older because they had innate ability - that and the desire to learn. Some (most) would never get anywhere near excellence in such matters (why do you think life drawing is the most important discipline at art school?). In the same way, one could tell who'd be excellent at sport or more cerebral subjects at an early age because they showed innate ability. That's not to say those good at sport aren't blessed with good brains (though some of the PE Mains at my teacher training college had to be physically turned round at half time in a rugby match!), and the very best sporting types have agile minds as well as agile bodies. 

 

Whatever the subject being taught, those who teach it should always show best practice. It's the same with building metal kits. The best way (undisputed, surely?) is to solder them together (or bolt together, as appropriate). Glue is nowhere near as good. That being the case, we should be deeply suspicious of those who recommend otherwise. So, as John Isherwood has so eruditely explained, learn how to solder. If you (the generic 'you') can't learn (or in many cases won't), then don't tackle building locomotive kits. It's that simple. This has nothing to do with putting people down or upsetting them a wee bit, but where is it enshrined that we can all master whatever tasks we set ourselves? 

 

Jol Wilkinson exhorts us (very rightly) to build kits for the prototypes we wish to represent (in metal or any other material). Then, of course, those who bleat just moan that they can't (or won't) build kits. Tough, that's life. Why not try learning how to? I've said time and time again that there is far greater merit in a model made by someone rather than an RTR equivalent, even though the latter might be better. You're an excellent example of of someone making things for themselves - good on you!

 

Today, I've had huge fun (as I hope you will next week) operating LB with a couple of chums (one of whom has not been before). Thanks David and thanks Simon. We ran the sequence, using (almost exclusively) locos I've made. At the end, David West put two of his Hornby A4s on to two of my trains. The first was 14 bogies long, mainly made up from kits (with about six plastic carriages in the set). The first A4 hauled it, but with bouts of slipping. The next tried its hand at 13 all-metal carriages. No chance, just much slipping. My kit-built W1 just ambled away with the rake. I have to say both of his A4s looked beautifully-weathered (as befits 52A streamliners).

 

The point of this story in context with the above? I learned how to make locos which will pull house bricks by having a go, learning by asking the right questions of the right people at the right time, cocking up umpteen times but with perseverance, belligerence and being bloody-minded (and by soldering), I 'succeeded'.

 

The opposite to this (in my case) is golf. I tried it, got better, but eventually gave it up because of deep frustration (and a lack of the right mentality). Now over 30 years ago, I didn't moan about not being able to play it well, but just accepted that it wasn't for me, and I've never played it since. The analogy (though poor) with those who can't (or won't) solder is they give up trying to build metal loco kits, and take up golf instead! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

What particular aspect makes you say this?

 

I can fully understand the sentiment if the goal is to run express trains in excess of scale 60mph on a large layout ... particularly if the aim is to exhibit. St Merryn if I recall is a small terminus station where everything is slow moving?

Tim,

 

Though I've tried to make sprung/compensated chassis, I've never succeeded in getting them to run anything like as well as my rigid ones. Since the perceived wisdom (at least with regard to steam-outline models) in P4 is that all locos must be sprung/compensated, then that counts me out. 

 

Another reason is my innate impatience. Unless I can build a full-blown OO Pacific in under 40 hours (not in one go), then I run out of interest with it. Has anyone completed (as I've just done in OO) an A2 in P4 in 32 hours? If they have, they have my absolute admiration. 

 

I know what I can do, and stick (or should I say solder?) with it.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Clive Mortimore]

Hello Tony

 

I disagree about those who cannot solder should not carry on making kits. I do agree that soldering is the best means of keeping the bits together. But if you do not have the ability, skill, courage or what ever to solder then the modeller is surely allowed to continue her/his want to build even if they use an adhesive?

 

I cannot do woodwork but if someone told me because I glue and screw butt ended joints I wasn't allowed to make baseboards until I could do proper mortise and tenon joints I would walk away from the hobby.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I'm learning how to solder underwater, so I don't burn my fingers, coming along, just find it a bit distracting when I get electrocuted. !!

 

manna 

[thegreenhowards]

Tony,

 

Can I just say that I think there's a world of difference between trying to glue together a brass chassis or the motion, which is surely doomed to failure, and glueing together a white metal body. The latter I have done several times (before I saw the light!), and I think it's possible to produce quite acceptable results using epoxy to glue white metal.

 

Can I change the subject to ask you a question about banjo domes/ steam collectors on A3s. I'm aware that there were round domes and two different sorts of more streamlined domes. One that looked like a banjo, and another that was more streamlined but still sometimes seems to be called a banjo dome. I have acquired a ready built Wills kit with the 'true' banjo style dome. My question is did these still exist in the 1950s? And, if so, how do I found out which engines had them and when they were carried. Photos are very difficult as most are from too low an angle to tell the difference.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Willie Whizz]

I can just about solder reasonably-sized lumps of white metal or brass together, but little tiny bits seem to be beyond me without making a heck of a mess.  Yet I'm a reasonably proficient builder of plastic kits.  That probably explains why, having tried both, I've tended to prefer Kirk and Ratio kits for my carriage models rather than waste a lot of money on etched brass that needs soldered overlays which I won't get to a better standard.

 

However, there is, of course, an argument that if a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing ... badly!  So I do it when I must, and yes there are times there's not much alternative if you want something enough.

 

So I'm intrigued by the idea of short soldering courses at reasonable cost that was mentioned a couple of dozen posts back.  Where might something like that be advertised, please?

Edited November 13, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[Jesse Sim]

Well, after a year since visiting England, staying with you Tony and talking about kit building, I finally have two GNR tender kits on their way from London Road models. Old GNR tenders were used by the LNER  to cart the white sludge that was left over from the water softening plants, as this is my first attempt at kit bashing, it thought what a brilliant idea. Even if they turn out horrible, i could still use them. John from London Road models helped me out and found some extra buffer beams and happily gave them to me for nothing. 

 

Do i need to get a jig of some sort? Or is that only for locomotives? 

 

Wish me luck. 

[Headstock]

Tony,

 

Can I just say that I think there's a world of difference between trying to glue together a brass chassis or the motion, which is surely doomed to failure, and glueing together a white metal body. The latter I have done several times (before I saw the light!), and I think it's possible to produce quite acceptable results using epoxy to glue white metal.

 

Can I change the subject to ask you a question about banjo domes/ steam collectors on A3s. I'm aware that there were round domes and two different sorts of more streamlined domes. One that looked like a banjo, and another that was more streamlined but still sometimes seems to be called a banjo dome. I have acquired a ready built Wills kit with the 'true' banjo style dome. My question is did these still exist in the 1950s? And, if so, how do I found out which engines had them and when they were carried. Photos are very difficult as most are from too low an angle to tell the difference.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

All the 'banjo' domes had gone by the 1950's.

[RThompson]

So I'm intrigued by the idea of short soldering courses at reasonable cost that was mentioned a couple of dozen posts back.  Where might something like that be advertised, please?

Missenden abbey run modelling courses including soldering but looks like the first part of 2018 is fully booked.

 

http://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/#

 

Tbh, at exhibitions some demonstrators may let you have a go on some scrap brass left over from kits?

[chrisf]

So I'm intrigued by the idea of short soldering courses at reasonable cost that was mentioned a couple of dozen posts back.  Where might something like that be advertised, please?

 

Roger Sawyer has a basic soldering demo stall at several shows in the course of the year.  There are also such things as skills days from time to time.  IIRC the EM Gauge Society is holding one at Kidderminster in March 2018.

 

Chris