Uckfield branch

[Pete 75C]

2 questions:

 

When was the Uckfield branch singled?

When did the loco hauled morning and evening trains cease?

 

I used to be a driver at Norwood and prior to that as a young secondman, remember working down to Uckfield from London Bridge in the evening with a Crompton and Mk1 stock (I think). It was a rare treat for a Norwood driver to haul something other than freight! We used to detach and run round when the station was the far side of the road. If we were quick there was just time for a pint* before the return journey! I think the return journey was ecs to Selhurst. We would have propelled the stock from platform 1 or 3 at Norwood Junction into Selhurst yard (this was way before the construction of Selhurst New Shed) before detaching the loco and dropping it off outside the mess room at Norwood. Then, knowing us, probably time for another pint!* From memory this would have been around 1985.

 

I left Norwood in the late 80s and spent some time just across the yard at Selhurst. I remember the Cowden crash in October 94. Sadly the driver of the down train was a good friend of mine and I vaguely knew the driver and guard of the up train. All three were killed. Luckily the guard of the down train escaped unhurt.

 

Having left Norwood in 1989, I never again travelled the Uckfield branch either as train crew or as a passenger. By the time of the Cowden crash, I know the line had been singled and Uckfield station rebuilt London side of the road (hardly a station - more of a "halt"). Exact dates would be useful if anyone knows.

 

* I don't, by the way, condone drinking and driving in any form. I was young and stupid. Although commonplace at the time, today it would no doubt result in criminal charges and instant dismissal...

 

Thanks, Pete.

 

As a postscipt, I searched Google Images for some photos of Uckfield station before demolition, two are reproduced below. What I can't find are any 70s / 80s photos of loco hauled stock at Uckfield or indeed anywhere on the line. I'm just curious about the stock formation - there would have been some first class for the bowler hats from London, and I'm guessing maybe around 6 - 8 coaches in total? I can only remember the evening train or trains if there were more than one, but I'm guessing they must have run in the morning too. If anyone knows of any photos, I'd love to see them.

[Pete 75C]

With regard to the 1994 Cowden accident, I've just found and read through the official accident report. A fascinating, if rather sad, read:

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HSE_Cowden1994.pdf

[cromptonnut]

Some of these may be of interest.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/3466487558/

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/3466488946/

 

http://www.semgonline.com/diesel/class33_03.html bottom image

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/class33b.html Information for 1983

 

http://twitter.com/nbmillie/status/245555327490195456

 

http://wobblewinterwanderings.smugmug.com/Trains/Class-33/18710844_g2hwm8/1447477771_V49DSFm#!i=1447477771&k=V49DSFm

 

http://www.uckfield.co.uk/lewes_uckfield_network_rail_final_report.pdf Report on the feasibility of reopening the Lewes - Uckfield section.

 

Video from 1993 of Uckfield station showing the original

 

Uckfield station after closure

[Pete 75C]

Excellent! Many thanks... love the Class 50 at Eridge.

The videos and pics answer a lot of questions. Thanks again.

Pete.

[eastwestdivide]

and from this forum, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/50290-diesels-at-east-croydon/

with some Uckfield trains including my photo of the last loco-hauled one.

[Gwiwer]

The line was singled as a means of saving costs and keeping it open.  Failing that it might well have gone the way of Eridge - Tun. Wells and of the Uckfield - Lewes section.  With a base hourly service double track with full signalling was not required.  At the time a long-term decline in patronage had not reversed and the boom seen in the past few years was undreamt of.

 

The loco-and-coaches formations were retired again as a cost-saving measure and due to the age of the rolling stock.  The SR had some of the oldest Mk1s in the fleet at the time dating back to the mid 1950s and it was simply no longer economical to maintain several sets of elderly coaches for what amounted to one round trip (East Grinstead or Uckfield - London and back) each working day.  I realise there were balance workings to and from yards but only the with-flow peak trips generated any sort of revenue.  This also allowed the locos to be redeployed elsewhere and in some cases also withdrawn as the class 33 fleet wasn't getting any younger either.

 

It was then ironic that as no decision could be reached over the possible closure / retention with electrification / retention with new diesel stock that the Thumpers, themselves older still than most of the Mk1 stock they ran alongside, ended up service over half a century on the route while some of the Mk1 coaches were sent north to Inverness and worked another year or two on trains to the Far North and Kyle of Lochalsh due to the very late delivery of class 156 sets to replace the locos and coaches up there.  One or two other coaches were recorded on the West Highland line.  The appearance of Network SouthEast flashes on Mk1 stock at places such as Thurso caused a few raised eyebrows!

[Pete 75C]

and from this forum, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/50290-diesels-at-east-croydon/

with some Uckfield trains including my photo of the last loco-hauled one.

Again, excellent - many thanks. That's a useful thread. Regading the 09 at East Croydon, whilst at Norwood we had a night turn (0001 start) that was known as a "diesel changeover". Quite often, nothing happened. You may have had to take a loco from Norwood down to Redhill and bring something back. I remember one night as a secondman, we had to take a 09 from Norwood down to Lovers Walk and bring a different 09 back. All that way at 27mph! Should have been grateful it wasn't an 08. Longest night ever! Occasionally we used to get a 09 on an engineers train at the weekend, though thankfully not often. It was impossible to get comfortable during the long periods of inactivity. If we had a 33 or 73, the PW staff knew they'd have to walk up to the loco and give the cab side a good thump to wake us up!

Still doesn't explain what the 09 was doing at East Croydon in daylight. It couldn't have been going far - it would have slowed the service down.

Pete.

[Oldddudders]

Not a fun thing to read, I'm afraid. Rick's point about the risk of the Uckfield Line joining TWW-Eridge is a good one - after all, I was Project Manager for that closure, and then went on to write the Investment Submission for the Uckfield Line Rationalisation. A significant number of the witnesses in the report were known personally to me - not least the author, with whom I had spent a pleasant day inspecting level crossings on the Medway Valley Line a decade previously, using my MG Metro! At least the scheme itself was exonerated from any design flaws, but of course head-on collisions are far fewer on double-track railways. At the time of the Enquiry, David Burton had me on standby to be a witness, but I would have added nothing of any value to the expertise Major Holden assembled.

 

One point of fact - the NRN had been instigated at least a decade earlier, as I had a NRN mobile phone (size of a large brick!) in my office at Beckenham in 1982. The network coverage at that early stage was appalling.

[Pete 75C]

One point of fact - the NRN had been instigated at least a decade earlier, as I had a NRN mobile phone (size of a large brick!) in my office at Beckenham in 1982. The network coverage at that early stage was appalling.

 

As far as I remember, the Cellnet mobile should have been picked up by train crews at Oxted prior to heading south. Coverage was appalling. The universal attitude of train crews was "what's the point - it won't work"...

Pete.

[The Stationmaster]

Not a fun thing to read, I'm afraid. Rick's point about the risk of the Uckfield Line joining TWW-Eridge is a good one - after all, I was Project Manager for that closure, and then went on to write the Investment Submission for the Uckfield Line Rationalisation. A significant number of the witnesses in the report were known personally to me - not least the author, with whom I had spent a pleasant day inspecting level crossings on the Medway Valley Line a decade previously, using my MG Metro! At least the scheme itself was exonerated from any design flaws, but of course head-on collisions are far fewer on double-track railways. At the time of the Enquiry, David Burton had me on standby to be a witness, but I would have added nothing of any value to the expertise Major Holden assembled.

 

One point of fact - the NRN had been instigated at least a decade earlier, as I had a NRN mobile phone (size of a large brick!) in my office at Beckenham in 1982. The network coverage at that early stage was appalling.

 Although the 'Driver To Shore' element of NRN radio and fitting to locos and units etc did not come until the latter half of the 1980s and even then coverage was not universal (I'm not sure offhand when the scheme was completed but it arrived on the Western c1986/7ish - I wonder if Captain Kernow can remember when I was training him and his colleagues on the system?).  I had a portable version of a loco set for training and used to take it home at weekends for 'experience' purposes - it worked a treat by our french windows and we were a mile from the GWML but up a valley which no doubt helped a lot).

[Pete 75C]

One or two other coaches were recorded on the West Highland line.  The appearance of Network SouthEast flashes on Mk1 stock at places such as Thurso caused a few raised eyebrows!

 

Getting back to the stock formation - this really tickles me - I had no idea that some of the BR(S) (NSE)'s Mk1s ended up so far away!

[Gwiwer]

It's a very poor shot taken on a very cheap camera but dating from 1987 (probably in April) here's a case in point.

 

[Pete 75C]

Found this too - fascinating! Inverness was obviously the place to be to spot NSE stock...

It never ceases to amaze me how far my mind wanders the older I get... What began as a request for info about Uckfield ends with me posting a picture of Inverness...

[Oldddudders]

I found this in another thread. The caption says it was 1984, so that may be the date of the cessation of loco-hauled trains to Uckfield

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=147195

[Pete 75C]

I found this in another thread. The caption says it was 1984, so that may be the date of the cessation of loco-hauled trains to Uckfield

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=147195

There's a picture in one of cromptonnut's links (above) that shows the same train (at a different location) and the caption is:

 

"Carrying the "Uckfield Crompton Farewell" headboard, Nº33107 near Buxted with the last scheduled loco hauled passenger working, the 7:10 p.m. from Uckfield to East Croydon, which was the return working of the 5:20 p.m. London Bridge - Uckfield M-F only on Friday, 11th May 1984"

 

I didn't start as a driver's assistant at Norwood until pretty much around that date. The "Uckfield Crompton Farewell" may have been the last scheduled loco-hauled train, but something must have happened to extend loco haulage on the Uckfield line beyond that date. The trip that I remember making wasn't a one-off, I remember doing it on several occasions - it was a popular diagram for the secondmen at Norwood, being just a little different from everything else we did.

I can only draw 3 conclusions...

The date in the caption is wrong or loco-hauled morning and evening trains continued beyond that date for whatever reason or there's something seriously wrong with my memory!

 

Also, I was wrong about the return evening trip being ECS from Uckfield to Selhurst - thinking about it, that would have made no sense. The return working was a service train to East Croydon, then ECS to Selhurst.

 

Many thanks to all who have contributed so far - it's been one Hell of a nostalgia trip!

Pete.

[Thumper1315]

Hi,

 I took the liberty of forwarding this discussion to my father who worked in the Control of the Central Division (SR) during this time and we also lived in Uckfield up to 1984, and these are his recollections.

Re loco hauled

 

Monday to Friday only

1720 London Bridge – Uckfield due 1845 Class 33 + 8 set

After run round formed 1910 semi fast to East Croydon

At East Croydon formed  2022 ecs to New Cross Gate FX

FO went 2022 ecs to Clapham Yard (not sure what it did on the South Western division  (Fragglerail!) and stock returned to New Cross Gate Sunday night

There were 3 8 sets berthed at New Cross Gate for the Oxted line

Monday to Friday the 3 sets went ecs to East Grinstead and formed rush hours services to London Bridge at 0725 / 0801 and 0827

In the evening there were 2 to East Grinstead departing London Bridge at 1734 & 1750 both back to New Cross Gate except Friday night one set went to Clapham Yard for South West to play trains and came back to the “Gate” ecs from Portsmouth Harbour late Sunday night.

 

Re Oxted box and the Uckfield line being singled – the “new” Oxted” signal box took over the line from Hurst Green Junction to Uckfield line 8th January 1990 (Uckfield box remained as a crossing box until station moved to other side of the road) so, although line obviously had been singled before 8th January that date is the official date

 

Peter

[Fat Controller]

My old gaffer worked the Uckfield line as a guard when he came back to the railways in the late 1960s (he'd started as a cleaner at Tunbridge Wells West in the mid-1960s, but left when steam finished).

The berthing of the LHCS at New Cross Gate fits with one story he told; he worked this one drizzly day with a driver who wore a long 'despatch rider's' overcoat. As they passed over the third rail on the walk back to the station to travel back, it would issue-forth sparks as it touched the rail.

Amongst the other stories he used to tell was one of a driver who used to hurtle away once unloaded at Uckfield, before coming back over the crossover to the Up platform. Apparently there had been about a mile of track left in situ for ages after the through route was closed. However, one day, he discovered, just too late, that more track had been lifted, and there was now only enough room for a loco plus eight. He was in a three-car set doing 30+ when he noticed...

On another occasion, he went to fetch a brew whilst the unit changed from Down to Up platform; upon his return, he duly blew up to depart, the train started moving, and he discovered the Guard's door was held on its chain, and wouldn't open fully. He just managed to get in off the footboard as the train cleared the Up starter.

Later, he went, via Guards' Inspector at Tonbridge, to Central Division Control; that might have been when your father was there, Robert. Ask him if he remembers Tony Clevett.

[Pete 75C]

At East Croydon formed  2022 ecs to New Cross Gate FX

I knew it - memory's on the blink. OK - we didn't go ECS to Selhurst-  we went ECS to New Cross Gate!

There were extensive sidings there in the 80s, mostly overgrown in the 90s and now sadly long-gone.

The down side at New Cross Gate still has a busy feel thanks to London Overground.

I remember the huge footbridge linking the Up sidings to the Down sidings. Carried many a can of tea over that bridge!

We used to take a 09 from New Cross Gate up to London Bridge for the overnight London Bridge Pilot duty - there were still plenty of mail and parcels around in the 80s. Victoria had a similar 09 duty. We used to brew up in the shunters cabin on the Up side at New Cross Gate before going to London Bridge. They had a 12" Pye tv in there and one of the first microwave ovens I'd ever seen...

Pete.

[retbsignalman]

Hi!

 

A couple of years ago, I made an enquiry on here as to the formation of the sets and the following came back:

 

SO, SO, SO, BSK, FK, SO, SO, SO.

 

All were air braked and the FK was a Mk2, the rest being Mk1s. I wasn't able to find individual carriage numbers in the sets though, but a similar request on the BR Coaching stock Yahoo forum came back with 'any SR allocated AB Mk1s.

 

I believe there was an article in Rail Express to commemorate the end of the services a few years ago, but as to which issue I'm not sure...!

 

I remember shunting the Mk1s (although these were VB, as all services north, west and east of Inverness were VB) with NSE branding at Inverness and later VB NSE liveried Mk2s, the branding was slow to be removed from both, and eventually the Mk2s had the red replaced with a RR variant of blue striping with the NSE logos/branding painted over.

 

If anyone does have the individual carriage numbers for a set of Oxted line stock, I'd be very grateful!!

 

Ta muchly,

 

Graeme 

[Southernman46]

The berthing of the LHCS at New Cross Gate fits with one story he told; he worked this one drizzly day with a driver who wore a long 'despatch rider's' overcoat. As they passed over the third rail on the walk back to the station to travel back, it would issue-forth sparks as it touched the rail.

 

Oh yes - those rubber-ish long toshs were a nightmare in the wet............. had a "back of the neck" tickle at Selhurst many years ago just simply due to the volume of water flowing off the coat onto the conductor rail     

 

There was a Cable & Track Inspector at Lewisham Control Room who wore one ALL the time come winter / summer......

 

ISTR the NSE graphic for the Uckfield line showed Lewes castle (apparently) which fostered rumours that re-opening was on the cards

[eastwestdivide]

Well, it's a slow day in the office, so, from a manky notebook comes:

Oxted line train at London Bridge, 31 May 1979:

33052 with 3746 3738 3829 13388 34644 3837 3993 3845. and 73133 on the other end for the ECS.

All are shown in my 1978 RCTS coaching stock book as air braked, electric heat (except the Mk2, AB and dual heat). All Mk1 TSOs apart from in bold, 34644 Mk1 BSK and 13388 Mk2 FK.

 

Edit:

Same day, also London Bridge:

33039 with 4393 3991 13390 34990 4055 3844 3759. (only 7 coaches)

and

33056 with 4063 4065 3923 13404 35011 4376 4066 4381. 

(same remarks apply on air brake, EH etc)

[Gwiwer]

Those stock numbers certainly accord with my recollection (and long-lost notes) that the oldest Mk1 stock around was in use.  Note some of those TSOs go back to around 1955

[eastwestdivide]

Those stock numbers certainly accord with my recollection (and long-lost notes) that the oldest Mk1 stock around was in use.  Note some of those TSOs go back to around 1955

I wonder if it was that air-braking conversion that counted against getting them replaced earlier - air braked = modern! On the other hand, the Southern did have a habit of reuse and recycling long before it was fashionable. 

[retbsignalman]

Well, it's a slow day in the office, so, from a manky notebook comes:

Oxted line train at London Bridge, 31 May 1979:

33052 with 3746 3738 3829 13388 34644 3837 3993 3845. and 73133 on the other end for the ECS.

All are shown in my 1978 RCTS coaching stock book as air braked, electric heat (except the Mk2, AB and dual heat). All Mk1 TSOs apart from in bold, 34644 Mk1 BSK and 13388 Mk2 FK.

 

Edit:

Same day, also London Bridge:

33039 with 4393 3991 13390 34990 4055 3844 3759. (only 7 coaches)

and

33056 with 4063 4065 3923 13404 35011 4376 4066 4381. 

(same remarks apply on air brake, EH etc)

Thank you!! Thats just what i needed! Time to get renumbering the 7 set I have ready, good to see the Crompton du jour was 052 there, thats one I've renumbered too!

 

Cheers G 

[eastwestdivide]

We used to go up from Kent for days out, and would often get to London Bridge in time to see the last morning Oxted line loco-hauled ECS waiting to go back out. The "Crompton du jour", as you so nicely put it, was nearly always a Hither Green 33/0 (the set lunch), occasionally a 33/2 (the chef's special), and rarely an Eastleigh one. The 33/1 that I photographed on that last train was a bit of a gourmet surprise. And as noted above, the odd 73 on the ECS.