synthnut Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Hi all, OK, I'm collating info and parts for both colliery and powerstation ends of an MGR flow set in the late Seventies for my next project. It's going to be 00/4mm and I already have workings of an automated prototype rapid loading bunker (RLB) under way using the guts of a Koi feeder of all things, but am looking at the signalling now. I started doing some scale (ish) drawings with an eye to etching a pcb to make some and then realised they are rather on the small side to be an easy job!!! Has anyone modelled these signals them selves or know of any off the shelf units at all? They seem to be rather an under documented device frankly and even David Monk-Steel's fascinating Merry Go ROund On The Rails didn't shed much more light, with a only a few images. I'd planned to use 1.8mm LEDs but the bodies of these are too large to fit sensibly, so it looks like SMT LEDs are needed. I've failed so far to find a suitable round, domed lens type available in white and red so far though... Any leads or suggestions much appreciated on this most mysterious avenue of signalling! TTFN, Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davyjcrow Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Ben, try using fibre optics for the lenses. When I make my own signals I melt the end of a FO strand ever so slightly with a flame and it retreats into a dome shape. The technique needs a little practice but FO is cheap so you can make a few mistakes. I get mine from the fibre optic store (search on google and it will come up). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 Ben, try using fibre optics for the lenses. When I make my own signals I melt the end of a FO strand ever so slightly with a flame and it retreats into a dome shape. The technique needs a little practice but FO is cheap so you can make a few mistakes. I get mine from the fibre optic store (search on google and it will come up). Holding FO close to a soldering iron will also cause it to dome nicely.. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthnut Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Hi, Cheers for the heads-up on using fibre optics. I had vaguely considered this, having made some streelights using it in the past. I've not had much luck trying to get the relativly tight curves needed to make signals though. My last f/o project was lights for a class 08 but though it worked fine for a month or two all of a sudden they all cracked at the bends where I'd heated them. The really tricky part so far is that the Toton indicators need to have 5 circuits to get the combination of states and are only about 10mm across. I don't think I could get that all down the column in fibre, let alone in the head, I'm not too nimble! I know some of you folks are super-skilled at micro engineering ;-) Thinking aloud, maybe surface mount LEDs with lenses made from 2mm fibre optic. I need to make about eight or ten of these by the way Not that buget will probably stretch to the quantity, but has anyone heard or seen of an off the shelf Toton indicator unit? TTFN, Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 You could always model them as per daw mill colliery, ie not working! Been looking through my photos but unfortunatly i didnt get any of the toton signals in ratcliffe that would be of any use to you, used to hate working by them rather than by radio, meant i had to stay awake while discharging the train!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthnut Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 "You could always model them as per daw mill colliery, ie not working!" Hehe Jim, yes, that's probably quite close to prototype, but not so interesting to watch ;-) I can understand that from a drivers point of view they would be a bit annoying when you could be leaving the unit on SSC and having a brew/sarnie/kip etc A squark on the old PMR would wake you up for sure... Is it me or are these about the least photgraphed signal? There seems to be so little out there with these in. Is it that they only appear in places most snappers can't reach? Or are they just loathed??? TTFN, Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2013 "You could always model them as per daw mill colliery, ie not working!" Hehe Jim, yes, that's probably quite close to prototype, but not so interesting to watch ;-) I can understand that from a drivers point of view they would be a bit annoying when you could be leaving the unit on SSC and having a brew/sarnie/kip etc A squark on the old PMR would wake you up for sure... Is it me or are these about the least photgraphed signal? There seems to be so little out there with these in. Is it that they only appear in places most snappers can't reach? Or are they just loathed??? TTFN, Ben Very often - like the ones below, which are in the latest head style, they are impossible to get at as they are in areas which are not accessible to most people Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 12, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2013 while looking for something else on photobucket i found this picture of the Toton signals in ratcliffe they have a red stop signal on the top too, can't remember if i ever saw one lit though as it happens i may be going back into ratcliffe with colas if i refresh it!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted February 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2013 The indicators in big jim's photos don't have the facility to show the diagonal options, so if you were to build some with the diagonals not working, would you be able to fit the fibres up the pole? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 You may find you don't need to worry about lenses, should be plenty bright enough if you put a SMD behind a hole in the faceplate. One trick I am thinking about for N gauge would be to wire the LED circuits in pairs with opposite polarity, each of which receives an AC signal down a single wire. Using diodes with relays or optoisolators should allow one half or the other of the AC to be "switched off", so that the five circuits could be done with three wires plus a common. Using enamel wire it ought to be possible to fit these into a post of scale thickness in 4mm. There is a more complex technique called "Charlieplexing" which I've never fully understood but might allow even fewer wires at the cost of more electronics under the board. I must stress I haven't tried this yet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Very often - like the ones below, which are in the latest head style, they are impossible to get at as they are in areas which are not accessible to most people DSCF2848crrd.jpg Found these elsewhere on this Forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2013 Found these elsewhere on this Forum Thank you Ivan - for some reason my post in this thread duplicated itself and when I deleted the duplicate the pic vanished from the post that was left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthnut Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 Cheers for the replies guys! My layout is intended to be mid to late seventies by the way. I've not found much in the way of historical info as yet. I'll keep looking for some suitable smd white LEDs and may do an etched brass head... Need to get the baseboard sorted really! Cheers, Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted January 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2014 Waking an old topic, did you do anything with these Ben? I need some for Ravesnclyffe... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted January 14, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2014 I've had a go at this myself, here is my first one part finished. It does work, you;ll have to take my word for it at the moment though. The main construction of the working parts is a piece of very thin PCB with the 9 holes drilled through it and 0603 surface mount LEDs mounted behind and poking into/through the holes. On the front of this will be the plasticard piece with the shrouds. This gets around the problem of lenses very simply, you can't tell if there is a lens or not under the shroud... Currently waiting for the paint to dry before I glue the front onto the PCB. The front will be filed to match the profile of the PCB once attached. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 What do you use to control this signal? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Why are they called Toton signals? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Because they were first used at Toton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2014 Because they were first used at Toton. the name was something i wondered about too, for once with the railway the most obvious answer is the correct one. i fully expected it to be an acronym of something or other like a "Towards Or Turn Otherway Now" signal!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted January 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2014 What do you use to control this signal? I think this one will probably be nothing more than a rotary switch and a flasher circuit for the 'set back' indication. It may end up with some electronics and a few different 'Stop' buttons located around the layout so that any operator can stop a loading operation in case of derailment but more likely for once I will stick to keeping it simple. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2014 for once I will stick to keeping it simple Quick, somebody call a doctor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthnut Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Hi Andi, You've beaten me to it! I'm massively behind my ideal schedule, so not even started making them in the flesh yet rather embarrassingly. Looking good by the way. I was thinking of using a double sided pcb of 0.5mm thickness, but hadn't got as far as routing the tracks for the four circuits. What type of surface mount LEDs did you use by the way, do they have any lens at all? I found some that looked quite nice, just not the right white without adding a filter or paint... TTFN Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Some of these Loading / Unloading Indicators look a bit like Pennsylvania Railroad position light signals which might provide some more routes to modelling them. What aspects do they display and what do they mean? Is there consensus? I get the impression that each installation has variations on what can be displayed and what it means. H0 scale PRR position lights can be made with 1.8mm LEDs on 0.1" pitch stripboard in conjunction with Oregon Rail Supply parts if you are keen which will represent 30" in 1/76 scale between centres of opposite outer lamps if that is the correct size. It should be possible to drive most if not all of the indications by something that can control a PRR signal. Typical indications for a PRR signal include vertical, horizontal, top right to bottom left both constant and flashing, top left to bottom right and in some cases 'X' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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