Unbuilt railways

[the-gog]

All,

 

Does anyone have much interest in proposed railways that were never built? I have unearthed a pile of documents in Shropshire Archives for various extension proposals for the Bishop's Castle Railway, as well as plans to build a railway down the Rea Valley (Minsterley > Pontesbury > Worthen > Marton) and on to either Chirbury (for BC) and/or Montgomery. There were 10 proposals altogether, by a variety of companies, all surveyed in exquisite detail. I photographed the entire lot, and all come with a coarse-scale overview map as well as things like gradient profiles and cross-sections. How does a terminus at Montgomery sound? It was planned to have been built just below the castle, and was a spur off a Montgomery (Caerhowel) to Lydham Heath line. This spur was on a gradient of 1:43 or so. Another of the plans shows the original proposal to link Oswestry and Welshpool, but not by crossing the Severn near Buttington - indeed, not crossing the Severn at all until south of Welshpool, and again on a different alignment to what was eventually built. Other proposals showed a triangular junction at Chirbury; a triangular junction just south of Forden; triangular junction at Lydham Heath; and a triangular junction at Cheney Longville, where the BCR met the Shrewsbury & Hereford Railway.

 

This little lot would be ideal to be published in book form, EXCEPT that the original maps are around A2 size, and contain very small text and other details. It would be difficult to repro them in anything like a readable size. Perhaps they'd be of more use to individual modellers. I have the entire lot of photos in different sets on my Flickr account as well as the original files (obviously).

 

All the original plans date from the C19th, and as such are well out of copyright. I spent a great deal of time (and photography fees) in the archives, purely for my own personal curiosity. I might think about modelling Montgomery Town. The wealth of material is just jaw-dropping.

 

Richard W Jones

 

PS - it'll be difficult following this topic, as this board isn't sending me email notifications. I'll try to remember to keep an eye out for replies.

[Andy Y]

PS - it'll be difficult following this topic, as this board isn't sending me email notifications. I'll try to remember to keep an eye out for replies.

 

I've just checked and could see that no notification options had been set, I've set some basic ones for you so you should receive some emails.

 

Proposed railways and their possible alignments is a bit of a side interest of mine; always helps with 'what-ifs'.

[the-gog]

Thanks Andy. I'm subscribed to a few topics by "instant notification by email" but couldn't work out why I wasn't getting any email notifications.

 

RWJ

[the-gog]

What's interesting is how many proposals the BCR came up with. No wonder they lost so much money, what with spending £££ on surveyors' and lawyers' fees. f they had managed to build an extension from Lydham Heath to Caerhowel to join up with the Cambrian, they could've made much money from through traffic, sufficient to be able to survive for longer I'd have thought.

[TerryD1471]

A fascinating possibility that the BCR could have run through from Lydham Heath via Church Stoke and Montgomery to link up with the Cambrian north of Newtown. I traverse the Onny? valley on the A489 frequently and the BCR formation is still very visible from the road. The onward extension from Lydham Heath would have been through easy terrain.

 

A second interesting "might have been" was the onward extension of the line from Leominster via Titley Jct and Kington to New Radnor. It would not be a huge leap of imagination to see it climb up the valley beyond New Radnor (which never looked like a terminus) and meet up with or cross the Central Wales line at Penybont and thence through easy country as far as Rhayader to meet the Mid Wales railway. What it would do after that was another matter, however, as the Cambrian mountains stood in its path to Aberystwyth.

 

Which brings me onto the third "bee in my bonnet", the Manchester & Milford's gloriously failed scheme to cross the Cambrian mountains from Strata Florida (or Ystrad Meurig) to Llangurig. Here too, the formation of the line east of Llangurig down towards Llanidloes and onward to Moat Lane Jct is still very visible. An enduring pipe dream of mine is to model a projected Llangurig station, at which pilot locos were attached to trains for the stiff climb over the Cambrians via Cwm Ystwyth down to Ystrad Meurig and thence to Aberystwyth by a southerly route.

[the-gog]

If you head over to http://www.flickr.com/photos/welsh_snapper/sets you'll see all the plans I photographed. The BCR had four proposals for expansion. There are five sets for them because one of the proposals was spread across two archive documents.

 

Richard

[DavidB-AU]

Does anyone have much interest in proposed railways that were never built?

 

Absolutely! Two in particular:

• The Bristol and London and South Western Junction Railway, the proposed second route from London to Bristol to compete with the Great Western. It was the brainchild of Sir George White and backed by LSWR.
• The two proposals for alternative route to Inversess, the Glasgow & North Western Railway and the West Highland Railway Inverness Extension.

As well as the National Archives and the various county archives, there is a lot of information about proposed railways in other government publications. If a Bill went before Parliament, the debates are in Hansard. There would also be a detailed description (although in almost incomprehensible Victorian bureaucratese) of the line in the London Gazette for England and Wales or the Edinburgh Gazette for Scotland. These are freely available online back to 1665 and 1699 respectively.

 

In this case, the Bishops Castle Railway Act 1861 did pass Parliament. The Bishops Castle and Montgomery Railway Bill 1878 was also debated. So was the Bishops Castle and Montgomery Railway Bill 1884. As was the Bishops Castle and Montgomery Railway (Abandonment) Act 1887.

 

Here's an example of the description of the 1878 proposal from the London Gazette.

 

It is intended to apply to Parliament in the next session thereof for leave to bring in a Bill for the following, or some of the following, among other purposes :—

1. To incorporate a Company (herein referred to as " The Company "), and to enable them to make and maintain the railway hereinafter mentioned, or some part or parts thereof, with allneedful works, stations, approaches, and conveniences connected therewith respectively, that is to say: A railway commencing in the parish of Lydham, in the county of Salop, by a junction with the main line of the Bishop's Castle Railway at the termination thereof at Lydham Heath Station, thence passing through or into the following parishes and places, or some of them, that is to say: Bishop's Castle Borough, Bishop's Castle Parish, Lydham, More, Moreswood, Snead, Hyssington, Churchstoke, Brompton, Rhiston, Chirbury, Harrington, Dudston, Timberth, Winsbury, and Crankwell, in the county of Salop.; and Aston, Broughton, Castlewright, Hyssington, Snead, Churcbstoke, Hurdley, Mellington, Weston-Madoc, and Montgomery, in the said county of Montgomery, and terminating in the said parish of Montgomery, an the said county of Montgomery, by a junction with the main line of the Cambrian Railways, at or near a point where such railway crosses on a level the public highway leading from the iown of Montgomery to Bhydwhiman, -such point being 616 yards, or thereabout, on the north-east side of Montgomery Station.

 

As to publishing large scale plans as books, do they necessarily have to be on paper? They could be compiled into a PDF so you can zoom in.

 

Cheers

David

Edited February 26, 2013 by DavidB-AU

[the-gog]

As to publishing large scale plans as books, do they necessarily have to be on paper? They could be compiled into a PDF so you can zoom in.

 

Cheers

David

A PDF would be much easier to deal with. Some of the details are tiny, and posed a challenge to photograph well in the dark archives. Naturally, the archives service would professionally scan the whole lot for me - at a price. I can easily assemble the images into a PDF, with a brief overview for each set.

 

RWJ

[Xerces Fobe2]

Lord Ebury's Railway - which proposed an externsion from Watford Jctn via Rickmansworth (Church Street)  to Uxbridge to connect with the Great Western Railway's Uxbridge branch this was never realised.

 

http://everything.explained.at/Watford_and_Rickmansworth_Railway/

 

A journey from Watford Jct to Uxbridge albeit with a reversal at Harrow on the Hill will be possible when the Croxley Link is completed in 2016 -only a wait of 150 years!

 

XF

[Karhedron]

Indeed, unbuilt proposals are a rich seem of inspiration for "what if" layouts. They are great for modellers who want to model something based on reality without having to pick a single prototype.

 

My own BLT Chew Magna is based on a proposed line from Pensford on the B&NSR up the Chew Valley. The actual proposal would have had the line continue on to Blagdon but in my version of history it terminated at Chew Magna and United Dairies opened a new creamery complex to handle mendip milk.

 

Chew Magna

[the-gog]

All,

 

I've got round to building PDFs out of each archive set, and have created a web page for them:

 

http://rwj.me/railways/maps.html

 

RWJ

[class29returns]

Greenock to Largs line,it was to leave the W. Bay line at roughly where IBM halt is now,travel behind Inverkip with a station and viaduct at Skelmorlie and down to Largs,they might have even connected it to the rival Largs line after the grouping.If it had been built but closed in the 60,s it would have left a fantastic walk when used in connection with the Greenock cut.

[TheQ]

^{The MSWJR is my main interest, that had a previous proposal thet the stephensons were involved in and had it been built then instead of the 1880s it probably would have done a lot better. There were also other proposals for a branch to everleigh and another into Ludgershall.}

 ^{The other never built although some preparation work was done, that I have an interest in, is a line from Mundesley in Norfolk to Great Yarmouth Beach station. This would have passed  my house had it been built.  it's the line the Happisburgh layout was based on.}

^{Appologies for spelling and typos as this is written balancing the wife ancient laptop on my knee the main computer litteraly went bang as the psu went up in a cloud of smoke earlier!!}

^{the Q}

[DCB]

The MSWJ is interesting as I went to Wiltshire county records office at Trowbridge and Glos records office  maybe 30 years ago to check the parliamentary records for the "Swindon and Cheltenham Extension Railway" the north end of the MSWJR.

 

Apart from the "Ashchurch" extension which I didn't check  there were variations of the "East Gloucestershire Railway," down the Coln Valley past Yanworth and Fossebridge, in Chedworth Parish but not in the Chedworth Valley, which led towards Fairford and the "East Gloucestershire Railway,"  as constructed.

 

There was once an exhibition layout allegedly based on Fossebridge but it was completely unrealistic, as the railway would have passed within feet of the Fossebridge Hotel and crossed the Foss way at the bottom of a 1 in 6 hill almost certainly by level crossing as the line swung round the severe S bend in this narrow valley.   Great location for a Model in a  narrow steep sided valley 

 

This was one attempt at a Cheltenham to Oxford line, both GW and LNWR had this aspiration at times, One was actually authorised and started but abandoned after about 50 yards which was to run via Shipton and the north side of the Leach valley towards the ridge used by the A40 road past Burford to Witney and Oxford which could be a good "Might have been." possibly LNW/ LMS rather than GW.

 

The MSWJ itself was proposed to be half a mile west of the Foss Cross station passing near Chedworth Church between the Church and the houses on Church row and piercing the crest of Harts Hill in a cutting and not a Tunnel.  This would have required a viaduct at Withington to keep the 1 in 75 ruling grade and probably for this reason and to provide a "hub" for the Coln Valley at "Foss Cross" the alignment was changed.

 

The MSWJ itself was extensively relaid with concrete sleepers just before closure for the Eastleigh to Bromford Bridge oil trains but left hand right hand communication problems led to the Cheltenham end connection to the Midland line being taken out at the same time,  I think the traffic went first to the DNS then Basingstoke Reading Oxford and then to a pipeline.

 

MSWJ in wartime or the Cheltenham and Banbury extension just pre war would be excellent lines to model, Salperton and Notgrove on the Banbury line would make a superb setting for small GW locos and short trains, remembering the GW 6 coach express and balancing LNER one which passed daily

[pwr]

Have a search for the Ouse Valley Railway in Sussex planned to run from just south of the  Balcombe viaduct on the Brighton main line to Hailsham on the Cuckoo line via Uckfield. A lot of earthworks and a couple of bridges were built but the line was abandoned. It would be great to have it open today.

 

A number of models have been built representing this line. Buckham Hill and Thunders Hill are the two I recall

 

Paul R

[Simond]

I do wish IKB had managed to build his mooted terminus at Porth Dinllaen - a competitor to Holyhead for the Irish mails.

[Guest FairwayJunction]

There was once a proposal to connect Midhurst, a station in West Sussex to Haselmere which is located on the mainline going up to London from Portsmouth. This however was never followed through even though all the land owners between Midhurst and Haselmere that would be affected agreed that a railway was viable. This connection could have saved Midhurst from closing and today, would make a lot of money.

[russ p]

There were a few that sprung to mind in North Yorkshire

Glaisdale to Brotton,some earthworks and a bridge got built

LNWR Hartlepool extension ,from Leeds to Hartlepool running up Bilsdale where some earthworks allegedly existed and a tunnel to enter Teesside

A narrow gauge line from Rosedale abbey to lastingham and a link to the Helmsley line

[Nearholmer]

This is such a huge, and hugely interesting, topic, that it probabably needs a forum if it's own.

 

My personal favourites, based on where I've lived, are the multiple "fantasy railways" of East Sussex, some of them light railways, some earlier "heavy" lines, and the multiple attempts to get rails to link Newport Pagnell and Olney in North Bucks,

 

I caught the bug from my father, a diligent researcher of the local history of East Sussex, who came back from visits to the archives at Lewes with sketch-maps of all sorts of unlikely railways for me to pore over ...... he wasn't into railways, but I have been from a very early age.

 

Two that I recommend as being worthy of pursuit from a "nearly" layout perspective are: the Crowborough, Groombridge and Nutley LR, which was promoted by timber interests, with a view to tapping the mature hardwood along that fringe of Ashdown Forest; and, the Cuckmere Valley LR, which would have run down the valley from Berwick, then somehow clambered up to East Dean, and tunnelled through to Birling Gap, where a new town was intended. The latter would allow you to have the Long Man of Wilmington striding across the back-scene!

 

Kevin

[russ p]

There was also a proposal in Norfolk for a branch from High Kelling near to where the North Norfolk railway has a station called Holt to blakeney with a station at Cley next the sea which is where I've based my own model railway but I've justified it using a different set of circumstances which are in my layout thread

[corneliuslundie]

I have only just come across this thread thanks to a reference elsewhere on RMWeb.

In a new book about the South Wales valleys there is a reference to a Newtown and Montgomery Railway proposal early in the 20th century. It seems unlikely, but did you come across anything in your searching?

Jonathan

[webbcompound]

Not an unbuilt line, but an unachieved railway: my favourite is the Welsh Railways Union, Edward Watkin's scheme to link Swansea, Cardiff and Newport to Liverpool, Birkenhead, and Manchester largely using existing lines, but requiring a couple of links, such as the Ellesmere line which were actually bullt. Had the Union come to fruition the railways involved, led by the Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire, would have been the Mersey Railway, the Wirral Railway, the Wrexham Mold and Connah's Quay, the Cambrian, the Neath and Brecon, the Brecon and Myrthyr, the Barry, the Taff, and the Midland (through the Swansea Vale Railway). Although primarily for goods the passenger trains would have been a glorious assemblage of through carriages, and running rights would have meant just as varied a fleet of locos.

[runs as required]

I do wish IKB had managed to build his mooted terminus at Porth Dinllaen - a competitor to Holyhead for the Irish mails.

And what about IKB's projected broadgauge line through the Stephensons' Newcastle upon Tyne heartland, crossing the Tyne before tunnelling under the city centre en route to Edinburgh?

Commissioned by Earl Grey to challenge the Newcastle & Berwick, to avoid his coastal estates around Howick in Northumberland.

dh

[Chris116]

A journey from Watford Jct to Uxbridge albeit with a reversal at Harrow on the Hill will be possible when the Croxley Link is completed in 2016 -only a wait of 150 years!

 

XF

In the light of hindsight would you like to reconsider the date for going from Watford Junction to Uxbridge?

[sir douglas]

there were many proposals for lines around Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield,

 

Wakefield library holds a map folder for a line from wakefield Kirkgate to leeds (this was before Westgate was built) starting at a triangle junction just west of the station it tunneled under Westgate to the east of the current line and since it came off the Kirkgate line it would be a lot lower than the current westgate line

 

something like this

Edited February 23, 2017 by sir douglas