Great Western Railway Toplight Carriages

[Neal Ball]

There have often been calls for Great Western Toplight carriages to be produced as ready to run models. The carriages saw many adjustments over the years, the primary reason for raising this now is to gauge opinion and see if we can influence the GWR carriage voting ahead of the MRE / RMWeb Poll which will launch shortly! Basically a concerted effort to focus GWR attention onto these carriages....

A rake of carriages to this standard: http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/5842118385/in/photostream/ and the same carriage here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/7944918322/

These were taken at the Severn Valley Railway. http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/3930.html

But in 1930's shirtbutton livery, hauled be a Great Western Castle, to my mind would be terrific. Which of course is not to everyone's taste, so clearly I am talking about models of carriages as they would have run in the 1930's, through to the 1940's.

Now obviously, Cooper-Craft have recently taken over the production of the Slaters GWR Toplights, which make up into very nice models: http://shop.cooper-craft.co.uk/index.php?cPath=7_20&osCsid=rusua8dmsud0vkshf2m33phtb5



GWR 57ft all Third and the Brake Third seen on my layout "Wharncliffe Junction"

There were three* different sizes of Toplights: 56ft; 57ft and 70ft, with a multitude of changes and differences, with typically the 56ft having 8ft fishbelly or American bogies, these were probably 56ft. 57ft and 70ft tended to have 9ft bogies. The earliest built carriages had gas lighting, later being replaced by electric. A lot of the 56 and 57ft were used as Ambulance trains during WW1 and those that came back into GWR stock were plated over with steel, losing all or some of the Toplights.

Historical details can be seen on Page 18 of the Wild Swan GWR coaches plans book by John Lewis. Opposite which are details of the Toplight single ended slip carriage to Dia F14 Lot 1150 and 'photos of No's 7101 and 7102 built in Sept 1908, it was a similar Toplight that was downgraded from Slip work to act as part of the branch train on the Henley on Thames line.

Michael Harris in GW Coaches from 1890 (on Page 64) states that the distinguishing feature is the oblong hammered glass toplight above the quarter and full-size window, with full panelling above the waist. Carriages built towards the end of the period , lacked either or both features. 56 & 57ft Toplights built 1907 to 1920.

There are 4 basic types:

• Bars 1: 56ft & 57ft with American 8ft bogies Built 1907-1911
• Bars 1: 56ft Churchward 9ft bogie Built 1911 all with electric lights from new.
• Bars 2: 57ft Churchward 9ft bogies Built 1912-1913
• Multi-bar and Steel panelled with Toplights, but no mouldings above the waist. 8ft 11 1/4in wide; Churchward 9ft bogies, built 1914-1920

Note: The term Bars1 etc. refers to the type of underframe bracing.

The 56 & 57ft stock were built for lines where 70ft was not practical, with 70ft being built for the most part for workings out of Paddington.

My suggestions for R-T-R models (although more Slaters kits, for different carriage diagrams would be a great compromise!):

• Corridor 3rd Diagram C32 to Lot 1234, (57ft Multibar) 12 carriages were built in 1914. Page 82 OPC Pictoral record of GW Coaches part 2 1903 - 1948
• Brake 3rd to Dia D56 lot 1235 (57ft Multibar) built 1919 onwards (Page 83 & 89) - Left and Right handed brakes please!
• 48ft suburban carriages - now I think these could be a real winner in R-T-R (Page 97) Planned to be built in 1913, but delayed until 1921-1922
• All 3rd to DiaC37
• Brake 3rd to Dia D62 (Page 81 of Vol 1 appendix) Lot 1263 / 1275 - 12 carriages
• Composite to Dia E101 (Page 132 appendix) Lot 1261 / 1273 - 11 carriages
• Trains were made up of 6 carriages; usually 2 x 3rd; 2 x compos; with a Brake 3rd at each end, with the Van outermost. With close coupling in the fixed formations (easy enough to do with NEM couplings)
• Given there is a clamouring (or at least in previous discussions on here); for non-corridor stock, these small carriages could provide that missing gap. I would not be put off by the fixed formation, as long as we are able to run with NEM couplings to change the formation as we wanted. There were short buffers in between the stock, but again, I would not have thought that would be an issue.

The field of Toplights can be a bit of a nightmare, I have only given a snap-shot above with so many differences. I have gone through my GWR Carriages books and chosen ones that COULD be built by a R-T-R manufacturer (good quality 'photos and plans in the books). Plus *there are so many comments about either 56/57/70ft; or there are 4 types..... only to find out later that there are also 48ft carriages. Seemingly we have lot's of choice with main-line stock, hence why I fancy the 48ft stock.

e & oe !!!! - Note the topic title "GWR" I have purposely omitted options for BR liveries.... By which stage a basic 1920's built carriage could look very different.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Neal Ball

[Garethp8873]

Neal,

 

If GWR Toplights were ever to surface as a RTR model, I would most certainly be interested in purchasing several examples. Having seen the carriages we have on the SVR, I always enjoy seeing them. They rarely come out of the Carriage Shed unless it is for a shunt or Galas due to their age. I reckon with the companies now starting to look at what the customer wants, the Toplight may soon be something we'll see appear.

 

Garethp8873.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Garethp8873

[Neal Ball]

Thank

 

Neal,

 

If GWR Toplights were ever to surface as a RTR model, I would most certainly be interested in purchasing several examples. Having seen the carriages we have on the SVR, I always enjoy seeing them. They rarely come out of the Carriage Shed unless it is for a shunt or Galas due to their age. I reckon with the companies now starting to look at what the customer wants, the Toplight may soon be something we'll see appear.

 

Garethp8873.

 

Thanks very much for that Gareth.

 

Gareth has some underframe shots in this set here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/sets/72157629861659569/with/7096991433/

[Coach bogie]

I gave up waiting years ago and taught myself to build coach kits. I now have assembled more than enough Blacksmith, David Geen, Hammond, Frogmore and Trevor Charlton toplights and it is highly unlikely I would buy any. Sadly I am not alone in this situation. I have been corresponding with others in a similar position recently, regarding non produced gaps for the toplight  sides/complete coaches, and there is only a small number of diagrams not covered. Even the sleepers and whitewash coaches have been available.

 

Interesting that there was no mention of brake compos in your list but the single ended slip coaches are. The brake compos were built in large numbers as through coaches. E82, E83, E95,etc. The E95 would be a commercially good choice as by replacing one corridor end only with a slip end you get an F20 single ended slip coach. (Blacksmith used to offer this by request,by including the ends etch from the F16 with their E95 kit, though it never appeared in their lists). In my opinion a double ended slip would be popular as they were far more widely used.

 

With the likes of Worsley works already producing alternative steel sided toplight sides only and others considering the panelled sides, the conversion possibilities to any rtr toplight stock will be well covered.

 

I will amend my opening statement. If the non corridor stock was produced, I would be tempted. Being too intoxicated with mainline stock over the years, I failed to buy enough suburban toplights when available, having to rely on steel stock. There is a brass kit run of 4 coach toplight non corridor sets being developed at the moment but an rtr set would be most welcome.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited March 28, 2013 by Coach bogie

[Neal Ball]

I have added brake compo and double slips.

 

I would love to be able to have the time to make up a load of kits, but I already seem to have loads of unfinished projects !

 

Thanks for the comments

[coachmann]

Bars I and Bars II referred to the raised panelling configuation. Bars I had an eaves panel running through the design. Bars II took the panelling from waist through to roof with no eaves panel. Multibar was steel clad and had no raised beading. I think this originated with GWR coaching expert Michael Longridge.

 

Editted to make clearer..

Edited March 28, 2013 by coachmann

[Miss Prism]

CPL Products (the late Carl Legg, now continued on by his wife, Pat) did, and maybe still does, some etched sides for a few 57' steel-sided non-corridors. Can't remember the diagram numbers offhand.

[Karhedron]

You forgot to ask which scale. If you are asking about 00 then my answers to the above will be 0.

 

Now if you are talking about N gauge then suddenly things become a lot more interesting.

[richbrummitt]

The brake composite and the double slip only appeared after I hit the submit button? I'd rather have brake composites and all 3rds. I'd like them in N gauge too but that's not available as an option ;-)

[Coach bogie]

 

I would love to be able to have the time to make up a load of kits

 

 

So would I !. Work, domestic responsibilities, Single parent to two demanding children 5 days a week, Wife back and expecting full family activity weekends, time is a very precious commodity, but I am determined to run the variety of coaches in my wish list. Once the children are in bed, then I model for an hour or so nearly every night. My window sills look like a carriage works with fifteen built but unpainted/half painted carraiges awaiting the warm weather when I can go outside with the car sprays. I do have the odd 'MAD' night. Last Sunday I drove back from London, arriving home at 2am. I was wide awake and eventually stayed up all night and soldered up a Frogmore K19. Wheels were turning by 7am when I awoke the boys for school. Needless to say Monday was a modellimg free/early to bed evening.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

I'd want them in multiple liveries (not allowed in the poll). I'd also want 'handed' compos where appropriate. As the 57' Colletts had handed compos I would assume that the toplights did for the same reasons. In later liveries they'd have to come with some of the panels replaced with smooth (plywood) replacements...

 

Adrian

Edited March 28, 2013 by Adrian Wintle

[newport_rod]

Since the toplights continued in service until the '50s you could add Blood and Custard to the livery menu.

Rod

[Il Grifone]

I would not be particularly bothered over the actual diagrams, but certainly a range should include Brake/3rd, 1st/3rd, 3rd and Bk/1st/3rd, at the very least.

 

70 foot coaches would be welcome, but were rather restricted in their movements.

 

I have a P.C.models Bk/1st/3rd (E95 IIRC) and a King's Cross 70 ft. 1st/3rd in 1920s panelled livery, which are crying out for replacement plus some etched sides acquired recently........

[57xx]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim, but... 
 
What's the difference between "Brake 3rd (Left or Right handed)" and  "Brake 3rd (Makes no difference which handed, one type is ok)" ? To me, that looks like two different ways of saying the same thing?

 

I'd also like to vote for more than one livery. 

 

cheers

[Kris]

Having built several toplight models I realise what a gap this is, but I would be wanting them in n gauge and as I suspect that this is for 00 I will refrain from entering the poll. I would also want them in a BR livery. 

[Neal Ball]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim, but... 

 

What's the difference between "Brake 3rd (Left or Right handed)" and  "Brake 3rd (Makes no difference which handed, one type is ok)" ? To me, that looks like two different ways of saying the same thing?

 

I'd also like to vote for more than one livery. 

 

cheers

 

The Great Western built many Brake 3rds / Brake compos "handed" so the corridor always remained on the same side of the train! So you would have (say) a left hand van at the front (van outermost) with a right hand van at the rear. This practice continued through to the late 30's / early 40's.

 

Not being dim at all ! - As far as I know, they were the only railway to do it.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Neal Ball

[Neal Ball]

I gave up waiting years ago and taught myself to build coach kits. I now have assembled more than enough Blacksmith, David Geen, Hammond, Frogmore and Trevor Charlton toplights and it is highly unlikely I would buy any. Sadly I am not alone in this situation. I have been corresponding with others in a similar position recently, regarding non produced gaps for the toplight  sides/complete coaches, and there is only a small number of diagrams not covered. Even the sleepers and whitewash coaches have been available.

 

Interesting that there was no mention of brake compos in your list but the single ended slip coaches are. The brake compos were built in large numbers as through coaches. E82, E83, E95,etc. The E95 would be a commercially good choice as by replacing one corridor end only with a slip end you get an F20 single ended slip coach. (Blacksmith used to offer this by request,by including the ends etch from the F16 with their E95 kit, though it never appeared in their lists). In my opinion a double ended slip would be popular as they were far more widely used.

 

With the likes of Worsley works already producing alternative steel sided toplight sides only and others considering the panelled sides, the conversion possibilities to any rtr toplight stock will be well covered.

 

I will amend my opening statement. If the non corridor stock was produced, I would be tempted. Being too intoxicated with mainline stock over the years, I failed to buy enough suburban toplights when available, having to rely on steel stock. There is a brass kit run of 4 coach toplight non corridor sets being developed at the moment but an rtr set would be most welcome.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hi Mike - Are the 48ft non corridor available as kits? Thanks.

[57xx]

The Great Western built many Brake 3rds / Brake compos "handed" so the corridor always remained on the same side of the train! So you would have (say) a left hand van at the front (van outermost) with a right hand van at the rear. This practice continued through to the late 30's / early 40's.

 

Not being dim at all ! - As far as I know, they were the only railway to do it.

 

It's not what the left and right handed brakes are that confusing me, it is the "left or right" and "makes no difference, one type is ok", to me that is essentially the same. Did you mean "Left and Right" e.g. make both types available? This would be in contrast to "one type is ok" e.g only make a left or right but not both.

[Neal Ball]

It's not what the left and right handed brakes are that confusing me, it is the "left or right" and "makes no difference, one type is ok", to me that is essentially the same. Did you mean "Left and Right" e.g. make both types available? This would be in contrast to "one type is ok" e.g only make a left or right but not both.

 

Sorry!

I meant that manufacturers have traditionaly only made one van, rather than a Right and a Left.

 

The question then becomes,

1. do you want a Left AND a Right.

OR

2. One handed brake is fine, not fussed if L or R

 

I have clarified the question, hoping me meaning becomes clearer.

 

***If you would like to change your votes, just take the option to delete, then vote again****

Edited March 28, 2013 by Neal Ball

[Il Grifone]

I would assume that left and right handed would be preferred (a complete rake would need both), but that either would be better than none.

 

The idea was to keep the same side of the train presented to passengers on Platform 1 at Paddington (principally). I can never remember, whether corridor or compartment side however.

[Neal Ball]

I'd want them in multiple liveries (not allowed in the poll). I'd also want 'handed' compos where appropriate. As the 57' Colletts had handed compos I would assume that the toplights did for the same reasons. In later liveries they'd have to come with some of the panels replaced with smooth (plywood) replacements...

 

Adrian

 

Looking through my books last night, I found no evidence of handed composites. 

 

Admittedly, there were so many different diagrams and changes, but to add in replacement panels, I doubt we would be able to get an R-T-R to manage that!

 

Since the toplights continued in service until the '50s you could add Blood and Custard to the livery menu.

Rod

 

 

Yes! - But by that stage they had started to evolve with different panels etc. as above. Therefore, in my opinion, it will cloud any manufacturers view about the possible models.

 

On that basis all BR livery versions were excluded from the Poll. Obviously my interest is 1930's ......

 

I would assume that left and right handed would be preferred (a complete rake would need both), but that either would be better than none.

 

The idea was to keep the same side of the train presented to passengers on Platform 1 at Paddington (principally). I can never remember, whether corridor or compartment side however.

 

Corridor side I think.

[Ozexpatriate]

Looking through my books last night, I found no evidence of handed composites.

My guess would be that the brake composites were formed only at the end of trains and deposited through the journey - not requiring 'handed' versions.

 

Excluding the slipped portions, the 1935 down Cornish Riviera carried four brake composite coaches (for St. Ives, Falmouth, Newquay and Kingsbridge).  The core portion of the train to Penzance had brake 3rds at the front and rear. Presumably these were 'handed'.

 

My assumption is that similar configurations were used for earlier formations using toplights.

[Adrian Wintle]

My guess would be that the brake composites were formed only at the end of trains and deposited through the journey - not requiring 'handed' versions.

 

Excluding the slipped portions, the 1935 down Cornish Riviera carried four brake composite coaches (for St. Ives, Falmouth, Newquay and Kingsbridge).  The core portion of the train to Penzance had brake 3rds at the front and rear. Presumably these were 'handed'.

 

Brake compos don't appear to have been handed, but the main Centenary set was built so that the corridor would be on the south side of the train. The D120 Van Thirds were handed.

 

Adrian

[Adrian Wintle]

Looking through my books last night, I found no evidence of handed composites. 

 

Russell's Appendix One has photos of left- and right-handed E88 compos, both from Lot 1193 (page 120)

 

Adrian

[Il Grifone]

Since the composition leaving Paddington would be loco, Penzance Portion LH and RH Bk/3rds and then various 'through' sections, each with a Bk/compo* these would need to all be the same handing.

 

* possibly a composite and brake/third, depending on required capacity.

 

This assumes the coaches were kept in sets, which wasn't generally GWR practice.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Il Grifone