RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 9, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2013 I'm intrending to model a fictitious secondary through route in the old Caledonian Railway Northern Division in the BR period round about the end of the 1950s up to about 1960 or thereabouts. Although I never thought I'd find myself saying this, I'd like to include some diesel traction (DCC sound is irresistable!) but am having some difficulty in finding what types would realistically have run on such a route at that time (and for which, ideally, there are RTR models available). Unfportunately, such research as I've managed indicates that diesel traction came pretty late to that area and that the choice is very limited. Any help would be much appreciated. DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim49 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hi Torper, Firstly I'm not too sure of the extent of the Cally's Northern Division but would have to agree that you don't have a lot of choice for your time period. Classes might be 08, 20, the poor & much maligned 21s and possibly 101 DMUs. Classes 24/25 & 26/27 probably came along just too late for you. One loco you could use if you were very brave would be D5511, the Class 30 or 31 that was trialled in Scotland in the late 1950s. It was allocated to Inverness shed for a month or two in 1958 so might have made a trip down the Highland main line to Perth or Stirling if that helps. Finally I have a photo of a Class 28 passing Stirling shed in (I think) the late 50s. I will check it out later when I get home and let you know. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velopeur Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Wikepedia says this about the Class 26s "Locomotive D5303 was on loan to the Scottish Region from 1958, being operated briefly from Inverness TMD, and Eastfield TMD before moving to Leith Central TMD. This was the precursor to a further twenty seven locomotives of a slightly modified design (D5320-5346, Class 26/1) being delivered to the Scottish Region between April and October 1959. The first two of these locomotives were briefly allocated to Leith Central, but subsequently all of the Scottish batch were based at Haymarket TMD (although some went to Hornsey on loan for a time). By the middle of 1960, evaluation of the various Type 2 designs was complete and it was decided to concentrate all of the Class 26s in Scotland. As a result, the Class 26/0s were transferred to Haymarket, displacing the Class 26/1s to Inverness. Although some transferring of individual locomotives between the two depots occurred, the type was then allocated entirely to Haymarket and Inverness until 1987, apart from the brief allocation of a few locomotives to Kittybrewster TMD and Dundee TMD during 1960." Usual reservations about reliability of information, but looks like there might be hope for the odd class 26 appearing on long distance trains through your area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Several of the different versions of Railbus worked in Scotland, were any of the available kit/rtr versions allocated to CR areas of Scotland? On Flickr SC79973 is at Perth in May 1960. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velopeur Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Another possibility is prototype diesels on trial runs. Not sure what happened at NBL, but other British manufacturers like Cravens and BRCW ran new locos and railcars on trials on BR metals - even ones for overseas use - even narrow gauge ones with standard gauge bogies. Only ones that would fit within the loading gauge though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strathyre Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 NBL certainly ran test trains for new/repaired locos over the GSWR main line to Dumfries, I've seen a couple of shots of Class 22 Hydraulics there. They also ran some foreign locos, the most unusual ones that I'm aware of being a pair of 0-6-0s built for Mauritius that were tested between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 In 1959, the Metropolitan Vickers Type 2's (Co-Bos) being used on the 'Condor' were sometimes used by Polmadie on internal Scottish services during their layover in Glasgow. From the 'derbysulzers' website, during the week they sometimes worked passenger services on the Gourock (and Wemyss Bay) lines. They could also be used on a Bridgeton - Stirling freight, returning with a coal train from Plean to Shieldhall. Those laying over on the weekend sometimes took the Friday 10.20pm sleeper to Carlisle and 7.15am return, or worked the Saturday 5.30pm St Enoch - Carlisle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim49 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Following on from Peter's comments above, I was right about a Class 28 at Stirling. It was D5713 going south past Stirling shed on a passenger turn for Glasgow. The stock was 6/7 Staniers and the loco was in plain green, displaying express headcodes. The photo is in Diesel Days - Scotland by Brian J Dickson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 9, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks everyone for your help on this. Sadly, you've all basically confirmed what i'd feared - if I want a diesel doing regular workings on my line in about 1960, it's got to be a class 21 and Dapol, unfortunately, appear to dragging their heels a bit on the promised production of a model of this loco. (The CR Northern Division, incidentally, started at Greenhill, near Falkirk - I hope to model a small through station on a fictitious but plausible line somewhere between Perth and Aberdeen). Back in 1960 I wasn't really paying an awful lot of attention to trains, but I can remember Class 21s working (or not!) on the Strathmore line. My proposed station won't be big enough to warrant an 08, and i don't think that Class 20s ever got up here, or if they did it must have been very rare. I'm very tempted, though, by a Class 28 as i really like them - i've even got one of the old Hornby Dublo ones somewhere. However, although you can justify quite a lot on a fictitious line, I really don't think I could justify one of them (even to myself) for regular workings.. I did think of expanding my time slot up to, say, 1965, but I don't think that would help me much other than that I might be able to run a class 105 DMU. The same could possibly apply to a first generation railbus, a dozen or so of which worked in Scotland from about 1958, but I hate them and just couldn't bring myself to model one! DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Remember Rule No.1 in all this, and don't fret too much over it; after all it's meant to be enjoyable, and if you want a diesel or two, nobody here is going to criticise you for it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 My proposed station won't be big enough to warrant an 08 What about an 06? D2410-D2444 were built for ScR from 1958. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 10, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2013 What about an 06? D2410-D2444 were built for ScR from 1958. Hmmm.... for which there happens to be a Judith Edge kit (and a rather basic Hornby model, described in Model railway Express as "not a scale model"). I've always fancied trying one of the Judith Edge kits. And Ben Alder, I do appreciate what you say. The trouble is that my greatest critic is myself. Having said that, an LNER E4 is going to be seen from time to time, so if that can put in an appearance........ DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Alex TM Posted July 10, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2013 Hi DT, Sorry that this may be a bit late in the day but is the following worth looking at? Google brdatabase.info - down the left hand side of the homepage is a search box - enter in the name of a scottish depot (e.g. Haymarket) - when it brings up the possible results, click on the relevant one (the above search would also bring up a couple of locos) - when that page resolves, you'll see a range of tabs one of which is entitled 'snapshot'; click on it - what you'll then see are two drop-down menus - pick the year and month that seems to fit what you're looking for and off you go. This may only confirm what others have said, although it may throw up one or two surprises too. Hope it's of help. Regards, Alex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted July 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2013 Class 20s were based at Inverness, Kittybrewster and Leith from early 1960, with class 24s following soon after. There was also the NBL 0-4-0 shunters which appeared from 1958 at places like Dundee, Stirling and Dunfermline. Again these are available from Judith Edge. Actually I should get round to making one of these..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 18, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2013 There was a Brush type loaned to the ScR from Stratford in the late 50s, I think it was D5512 but without trawlling through my books I cannot be 100% of its number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim49 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 It was D5511 Clive which was allocated to Inverness shed for a couple of months in 1958. Photos of it at work in Scotland are rarer than hen's teeth, does anyone know of any? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I think one was published in the Highland Railway Journal some time back- I'll try and track it down.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velopeur Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I am fairly sure I have seen a photo of the Brush at Fort William - but can't remember where. Quite possibly Trains Illustrated Magazine around the time the loco was in Scotland. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strathyre Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I've seen a photo of D5511 at Fort William and one at Hawick, heading a passenger train southwards. It was definitely reported as having at least one run on the Callander & Oban too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Getting back to the start of the thread, by extending the operating period to early the 1960's the main options I would look at are; Class 17 (Clayton centre-cabs) - from around 1962. allocated to Eastfield (Glasgow) and Haymarket (Edinburgh). Worked out of Thornton, often on drag freights. Class 20 - Early allocation to Inverness and Kittybrewster (4 each). I have a photo of D8006 in October 1958 on the Buchan lines. D8028/9/31 & 32 all 60A (Kittybrewster) Class 21 - Ignominiously dumped in Scotland after an appalling start to their careers. By 1960 all were based in either Eastfield or Kittybrewster. Used on both freight and passenger (often with a steam engine shoving them!). Class 24/0 (no head code box [simplistic definition I know]) - from 1959, relatively small numbers, but I would count these in as they did wander about. Class 24/1 (headcode box) - these were a mainstay of Inverness shed. Class 26 - end 1959 from Hornsey. These would be a mainstay. Interchangeable with the the class 24's and very common. Class 27 - 1961/2 starting to make a show although less common in the east initially Class 29 - rebuilt class 21's (still didn't go very well) Conversion started in 1963. 4 Character headbox replaced disc's plus other details. Class 40 - 1960 7 allocated to 64B Haymarket and a further 12 in 1961. Not beyond Aberdeen Class 47 - from 1963 onwards. Not beyond Aberdeen John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Getting back to the start of the thread, by extending the operating period to early the 1960's the main options I would look at are; Class 17 (Clayton centre-cabs) - from around 1962. allocated to Eastfield (Glasgow) and Haymarket (Edinburgh). Worked out of Thornton, often on drag freights. John, Eastfield, at least initially, was spared the Claytons. D8500-D8553 were inflicted on Polmadie before Haymarket got its first one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I've seen a photo of D5511 at Fort William and one at Hawick, heading a passenger train southwards. It was definitely reported as having at least one run on the Callander & Oban too. Its northwards working was recorded here, entering Hawick: http://railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=24644 ...and here sat at the platform: http://railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=29078 The date was 26th July 1958. And fortunately none of the type ever blighted the route again. Allegedly, on its southbound run, it restarted on the 1:75 climb to Falahill and on arrival at Gala it is said you could have fried an egg on its bodyside panels! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 "Not sure if it was the 1950s but the Metro Vicks were used to work the overnight Condor service between London and Glasgow." In (I think) the summer of 1959, while spotting the WD 2-8-0's on the General Terminus ore trains at Langside Junction, I spotted ex LMS 10001 in black and silver on the up Condor freight. No camera, unfortunately, and I didn't take a lot of interest in diesels then; but I recognised that one! Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Going back to the OP, ... I hope to model a small through station on a fictitious but plausible line somewhere between Perth and Aberdeen ... I did think of expanding my time slot up to, say, 1965, but I don't think that would help me much other than that I might be able to run a class 105 DMU ... That's quite a limited brief geographically. The obvious one is to upgrade the Forfar-Brechin direct line into something grander and running on north of Brechin to the Laurencekirk area. There were several such schemes between the 1860s and 1890s: if you don't have it, try to find "The Railways of Brechin" (W Simms, published Angus District Libraries 1985). Now you need a reason for diesels! You could be bold and decide that the Class 21s were more successful when first introduced, the A4s' Indian summer on 1960s three-hour Glasgow-Aberdeen services never happened, and that expresses were handled by paired 21s or, by 1965-66, Class 40s or 47s, both of which worked the route between the A4s' withdrawal and its closure in 1967. George O'Hara's "BR Diesel Traction in Scotland" has a shot of a class 44 (D10) at Aberdeen Ferryhill shed in 1960. Stopping passenger services would continue to use Black 5s or other ex-LMS 4-6-0s, fish trains and parcels behind V2s... if you wanted a bit more variety, conjecture that when Forfar shed was demoted to a sub-shed of Perth in 1959, it was cost-justified to dieselise the Strathmore goods-only branches: as others have suggested the most likely choice would be the Barclay 204hp 0-4-0s which ended up as class 06: Kittybrewster and Keith got eleven of them in 1958 and there are photos of them handling shorter trip workings. Class 08s didn't get cascaded to this kind of work until later, but a class 12 - 15229 - was allocated to Kittybrewster for two years from 1958 and was tested on trips (there's a photo of it at Aberlour in the same O'Hara book). In the mid-1960s, Dundee got a couple of Thornton's class 05 Hunslet DMs and they seem to have been used on trips previously handled by Ivatt 2-6-0s. During the seed potato season you'd need something a bit faster to keep traffic moving, so borrow a class 17 or a class 20: there are photos of class 17s (D8604, D8616, same book) on trips on the Buchan branches in 1965 when they were supposedly allocated to English sheds, and Kittybrewster had four class 20s (D8028-31) for five years from 1960. So no shortage of plausible excuses... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWales Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Going back to the OP, That's quite a limited brief geographically. The obvious one is to upgrade the Forfar-Brechin direct line into something grander and running on north of Brechin to the Laurencekirk area. There were several such schemes between the 1860s and 1890s: if you don't have it, try to find "The Railways of Brechin" (W Simms, published Angus District Libraries 1985). If you can't find one, I may be able to lay my hands on a copy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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