LMS 6 Wheel Insulated Milk Van

[brossard]

The scope of the project was to create a credible model of the subject van.  Starting point was the Hornby model.

 

 

 

The body is generally acknowledged to be accurate.  The less said about the underframe the better and indeed, it was totally discarded.

 

Besides the picture (of 38550) shown in LMS Coaches by Essery and Jenkinson, there is one other picture (of 38551) in an article by Essery in LMS Journal 31.  This article also contains a works drawing of the brake rigging. 

 

I went down several dead ends and my sanity was severely tested on this build.  I won't bore you with that and simply cut to the chase.

 

Body:

 

Generally accurate but Hornby used their generic Palethorpes mould.  The ladder, platforms and ice hatch have to be removed and the roof filled and smoothed over.

 

Underframe:

 

I did a complete scratch build using Evergreen sheet and strip.

 

 

 

 

The heart of the underframe is a Slater's Cleminson chassis:

 

 

 

Not the most ideal choice, being designed for 00 and for their six wheeled MR coaches.  A better choice would have been a universal chassis such as Brassmasters (next time).  In the event, the only mod I had to make for EM was to detach the W irons and stick them to the solebars.  The wheelbase was, fortunately correct.

 

Wheels:

 

I thinned some Bachmann coach wheels to 2.2 - 2.3 mm.

 

I spent rather a long time detailing the underframe. The strategy for painting and assembling all the bits took a fair bit of thought.

 

So, here we are:

 

 

 

Here's a shot of the underside:

 

 

 

John

Edited July 11, 2022 by brossard

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi John

 

Very nicely done.

 

I was looking at a Flickr collection the other night and there was what I first thought to be white painted LMS six wheeled fish van, behind a Jubilee or Black five at Bedford, Midland Road. They were not insulated so was a bit confused. Now seeing your model it must have been one of these milk vans in BR liverly.

 

Sorry cannot remember whos collection it came from, and I was more interested in the 127 DMU next to it.

[brossard]

Interesting Clive. The story of these vans is murky and even Essery doesn't know how they ended up except that they were withdrawn in 1958 and 1966. I would have expected them to be in maroon livery while under BR ownership but they could have been reassigned to other traffic. If you come across the picture again perhaps a closer look is in order.

 

LMS did produce a 6 wheeled fish van in 1947 which, as far as I know, was in maroon livery.

 

John

[Fat Controller]

Interesting Clive. The story of these vans is murky and even Essery doesn't know how they ended up except that they were withdrawn in 1958 and 1966. I would have expected them to be in maroon livery while under BR ownership but they could have been reassigned to other traffic. If you come across the picture again perhaps a closer look is in order.

 

LMS did produce a 6 wheeled fish van in 1947 which, as far as I know, was in maroon livery.

 

John

White would have been correct for an insulated van in BR days.

[Clive Mortimore]

Found the photo, http://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/7984846451/sizes/o/ note the white van behind the loco it appears to have two sets of doors. I cannot think of any other insulated vans with two sets of doors except the ex-GWR Insul-X-Fish and this one does not appear to be one of them. It is also in a class A passenger train so must conform to NPCCS standards, and I cannot think of any insulated vans that would apply to except the LMS milk vans.

 

Doesn't the 127 next to Jellicoe look great......and viewed from where I done most my early trainspotting Platform 4 (later Platform 2) Bedford, Midland Road.

[brossard]

Thanks for the picture Clive.  It is difficult to make out, but I think I agree that it does look like the Insul Fish.  Not sure about it being white though, it could be badly faded maroon.

 

Yes, despite being a steamie at heart, I do have a soft spot for the old DMUs especially those with the whiskers.

 

John

[hmrspaul]

 It is difficult to make out, but I think I agree that it does look like the Insul Fish.  Not sure about it being white though, it could be badly faded maroon.

 

 

 

John

or crimson, which is the colour it should be.

 

I thought we were talking about the recent photo discussed on RMWeb that had at least one white 6wheeler.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Paul

[Nelson Jackson]

That is absolutely beautiful, the weathering is just superb and the underframe is stunning, well done.

[31A]

That's very nicely done!  I've had one (a white one) stashed away for years with a view to doing something similar.  If it were possible to get hold of the underframe parts for the Chivers 6-w fish van separately, they might simplify the job; sadly I don't think it is possible.  Could I ask what parts you used for the axleguards / springs etc., or did you make them yourself?

[brossard]

Thanks for the kind words Nelson and Steve.

 

I doubt that you'd get much joy from the Chivers kit, as delivered the underframe is quite simple.  It even has a pair of plastic wheels with a flat - the intention of which is to make the center wheels cosmetic.  I did one for a friend and used Bill Bedford sprung W irons.

 

 

 

 

This was in 00 and it works just by having the center axle slide back and forth (the axle box reinforcing bars prevent doing anything with the outer axles).  I've since learnt a better way to do the center axle which involves mounting the wheels on a suitable OD tube and making a pinpoint axle that matches the ID of the tube:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks to Bill Bedford for the idea.  It didn't work in this case for a variety of reasons too lengthy and painful to go into.  This should work in 00 because the clearances are greater than EM.

 

I originally used Comet axleboxes and springs but by the time I had progressed the model the springs were looking really naff.  I decided to have a go at making my own by gluing plasic strips together:

 

 

 

When dry, chop off your springs like slices of bread, and add a strap:

 

 

Thin and shape as required.

 

I hope this helps.

 

John

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by brossard

[brossard]

or crimson, which is the colour it should be.

 

I thought we were talking about the recent photo discussed on RMWeb that had at least one white 6wheeler.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Paul

 

As you say Paul, crimson.

 

Clive mentioned the "white" van in post #2 and then provided a link to the picture in post #6.  This has a similar colour to my eye:  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsfish/h158ecb1#h158ecb1

 

I would be interested in learning what happened to the milk vans before they were withdrawn.

 

John

[Enterprisingwestern]

LMS did produce a 6 wheeled fish van in 1947 which, as far as I know, was in maroon livery.

 

John

 

According to The Model Railway Constructor article of June 1947 they were painted "L.M.S. standard stock colours".

 

Mike.

[brossard]

Agree Mike, that would have been Crimson Lake or Maroon, in keeping with other NPCS vehicles.  What BR did with these later on is something of a mystery to me, but crimson seems possible.

 

I have the Chivers Fish Van kit to make but only recently realised that the prototype was built in 1947, which is out of my era - oh well. 

 

Most 6 wheeled vehicles tended to have unbraked center wheels but there were exceptions.  The Milk Van, Fish Van and the Stove R spring to mind.  It is likely that the brake rigging would have been same or very similar for these.

 

John

[31A]

Thanks for the kind words Nelson and Steve.

 

I doubt that you'd get much joy from the Chivers kit, as delivered the underframe is quite simple.  It even has a pair of plastic wheels with a flat - the intention of which is to make the center wheels cosmetic.  I did one for a friend and used Bill Bedford sprung W irons.

 

 

 

 

 

This was in 00 and it works just by having the center axle slide back and forth (the axle box reinforcing bars prevent doing anything with the outer axles).  I've since learnt a better way to do the center axle which involves mounting the wheels on a suitable OD tube and making a pinpoint axle that matches the ID of the tube:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks to Bill Bedford for the idea.  It didn't work in this case for a variety of reasons too lengthy and painful to go into.  This should work in 00 because the clearances are greater than EM.

 

I originally used Comet axleboxes and springs but by the time I had progressed the model the springs were looking really naff.  I decided to have a go at making my own by gluing plasic strips together:

 

 

 

When dry, chop off your springs like slices of bread, and add a strap:

 

 

 

Thin and shape as required.

 

I hope this helps.

 

John

Thanks John, very interesting.  Perhaps you've read Peter Denny's articles about fabricating axleguards?  I think he used a similar method for producing springs.  Once upon a time, I had some Kenline axleguards which were roughly suitable for such vehicles, but sadly not available for a long time.  I just thought, if available separately the Chivers solebar mouldings (with axleguards), brake gear and buffers would be equally applicable to this milk van (and with addition of battery boxes and dynamo, and deletion of hand brakes, to a Stove R).

 

I used a version of suspension from my 6-w Fish that I learned from D&S kits for GN 6-w stock, it always produces reliable runners for me (in OO admittedly), using in this case an MJT inside bearing compensation unit for the middle axle, suspended from and free to swivel around a long flexible wire, and weighted with some lead to help keep it down.  Hope this isn't too much of a post hijack, and apologies for the couplings!

 

 

[brossard]

 

 Thanks for sharing your experience Steve.  If I read your picture correctly the guide wire is fixed by the plastic strip on either side.  The outer axles appear to be fixed.  It's a good looking model.

 

I'm a bit obsessive about brake gear and rigging.

 

The spring thing is something I saw somewhere which was lurking in my memory banks.

 

I have 2 Stove R's, one in BR and one in LMS livery.  For the BR vehicle I used Comet W irons with 14mm wheels.  The outer axles were pivoted and the center axle slides from side to side:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/cdqmnhc
 

I think for the LMS version, I'll use a Cleminson chassis.  Sadly, the van body is incorrectly lined so I'll have to do a total repaint as well.

 

 

There's definitely more than one way to do these.

 

John

[Arthur]

Interesting thread this, I've one of those Hornby vans myself awaiting attention.

 

Steve, that's an interesting arrangement, could I just clarify how it's set up.

 

The wire is fixed at either end, on the centre line. There are two squares of plasticard under the centre compensation unit, the wire runs freely between them, and they act as bearing pads between the wagon floor and the compensation unit?

 

How is the compensation unit fixed to the wire? You mention that it swivels.

 

Thanks

[brossard]

For the benefit of Steve, here's a picture of the Chivers Fish Van kit:

 

 

 

The parts are very well moulded and there is a pack of whitemetal parts (buffers and vac cylinder & actuator) and etched coupling hooks.

 

As I said, the underframe detail is sparse, but the enterprising modeller can fix that.

 

Note the pair of cosmetic wheels with a flat.  A nice touch I think, because it gives the less experienced modeller a way to get the model running without all the faff other fusspots make.

 

Arthur, glad you find the thread of interest.  I daresay there's simpler ways to do it than mine.

 

John

Edited July 11, 2022 by brossard

[31A]

Hi both, thanks for the kind comments.

 

Yes, the suspension wire for the middle axle is anchored between two brackets made from sandwiches of plasticard of suitable thicknesses, located on the vehicle longitudinal centreline towards the outer axles.  The MJT inside bearing compensation unit for the middle axle is free to swivel around the axis of this piece of wire (the etch incorporates holes for the wire to pass through), and can slide from side to side between the squares of plasticard fixed to the floor on either side of the etch (these just act as guides, the etch isn't attached to them); in other words I suppose you could say the compensation unit 'dangles' from the wire and is free to rotate around it and slide from side to side; it is also free to rise and fall.  When you put it like that it sounds quite crude, but in practice it gives very reliable running.  As mentioned previously, I glued small pieces of lead into the compensation unit (either side of the central wire)  to help keep the middle axle down, but otherwise there's no springing involved.  On the D&S kits that I copied, one of the outer axles runs in a rocking axleguard and the other is fixed giving a 3-point suspension, but that isn't normally necessary in OO.  I suppose the fact that the middle axle runs in inside bearings rather than between pinpoints possibly imparts slightly more friction to the finished vehicle, but this axle doesn't carry any of the vehicle's weight and any additional drag seems minimal.

 

My effort is quite lacking in terms of brake rigging, and yokes could be fitted between the pairs of brake shoes, but I'm afraid I tend to simplify such details and restrict them to what you can easily see (normal viewing angle is more or less as per my second photo) - after all, with couplings like that, how far do you take underframe detail anyway?  Although I have the greatest respect for those who do incorporate full detail!

 

As you say John, there's more than one way to do it, the above is just what works for me and seems reasonably simple to arrange.  I did make a Slaters 6-w MR clerestory full brake years ago for a friend, with the Cleminson arrangement that they incorporate, and that worked reliably as well.

[brossard]

Reading your description, that is basically how the Cleminson chassis suspension works.  One outer axle is free to rock, the center axle floats, constrained by the tabs of the two outer axle units.  The last axle can't rock.  The big difference of course is that the outer axles swing.

 

It seems to me that for 00, one can get away with simply allowing the center axle to slide from side to side - I've done it a couple of times.  For EM though, given the smaller clearance (granted, wheels are thinner and radii are larger), I think you need something more sophisticated.  Anyone with a differing opinion?

 

John

[SirNigelGresley4498]

I've a couple of D&S 6w GNR stock with pretty much that arrangement. With a little bit of weight the chassis' hold the track like mountain-goats.

[brossard]

Thread updated to delete Photobucket pictures and replace them with better ones.

 

John

[cypherman]

Hi all,

While we are on the topic of 6 wheel wagons. Can any one tell me who made these wagons I bought from the well known auction site. Got both of the for £8.99 so not complaining. They both had the flanges cut off the wheels at the bottom to let them get round corners similar to what has been mentioned here. They were advertised as cattle wagons, But I believe they were milk wagons used for carrying milk churns. They needed some finishing off to get them to run properly. But easily sorted.

Edited November 13, 2019 by cypherman

[Fat Controller]

You're right about the milk traffic; they're Siphons to Diagram 01, which entered service at the end of the C19th, and were withdrawn from the mid 1930s onwards. Though intended as Milk  Vans, they also carried fish and fresh produce, such as strawberries.

[BernardTPM]

They're K's/Keyser kits (the lower one in the top picture has the 1970s 'K' branding moulded in). That wagon was made in both whitemetal and plastic versions. Those two must be plastic; the whitemetal ones wouldn't need any extra weight!

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Thanks for the info. Yes Bernard you are correct they are both plastic. One of the jobs to do was remove the weights used and replace them with less intrusive ones.  would like at some point to make it so that I could put fully flanged wheels on the middle axels. But that would probably cost more than I paid for them. Still a project for the future.