Southern Pacifics Mazak problem

[sandwich station]

I took my R2260 Battle of Britain Class loco Manston out of its box today to take some photos. Upon looking at the photos on my computer I noticed there wasn't something quite right with the front bogie. I examined it closely and it seems to have the same mazak problem that the Class 31 is suffering from. It seems to be self destructing. I took it off the loco and noticed the pivot bar that holds it to the loco, wouldn't move freely. Holding the bogie in one hand and pushing the bar with the thumb of my other hand resulted in me ending up with 3 bits as it snapped in half also leaving a small ring attached to the pivot bar. 

 

I examined my other Southern Pacifics and found them all except 1 to be ok. R2268 Port Line has the same problem. If I remember correctly these 2 locos would have been made around the same time 10 or 11 years ago.

 

I have Coronation pacifics from the same time as well but haven't checked yet to see if they are ok.

 

 

So my question is..... Has anyone else come across this problem of bogies corroding?

 

This is Manston below

 

[sandwich station]

This is Port Line

 

 

[Guest]

I'm all to familiar with this problem!

Our loco, 35027 Port Line, has suffered the exact same problem! Front bogie snapped in half!
I think it's something to do with the materials it's made from, and those it's exposed to! As one axle jammed, so we tryed using WD-40 to free it, and it actually made it worse!

Meanwhile, 34037 Clovelly, has not seen such problems, and runs fine!

[JSpencer]

Cold humid conditions accelerate the zinc pest process in Mazak. It is often miss called "Mazak fatigue" but is is actually corrosion not restricted to just the surface.

 

I purposely store my trains away from humid places sealed in plastic

[JSpencer]

I'm all to familiar with this problem!

Our loco, 35027 Port Line, has suffered the exact same problem! Front bogie snapped in half!

I think it's something to do with the materials it's made from, and those it's exposed to! As one axle jammed, so we tryed using WD-40 to free it, and it actually made it worse!

Meanwhile, 34027 Clovelly, has not seen such problems, and runs fine!

Thanks for advising about Portline. I just checked mine and there is no hint of zinc pest on mine.

[JSpencer]

When storing locos, avoid tissue paper around them, this absorbs humidity creating a damp cloth in permanent contact with the loco concerned. Seal the model in plastic, try to include one of those small packs of silica you get free with shoes then avoid storage in cold humid places.

 

The other which gives excellent protection is regular handling and running! I,ve preserved my ancient trip by doing that.

[toboldlygo]

I've encountered a few times (in well over 100 SR Pacifics - both MN and WC/BoB) most recently in a Brocklebank Line I was reworking for a client...

Fortunately I keep a few spares!!!

[andyman7]

At least this part is relatively easily replaced.

 

As has been extensively covered in the numerous threads about affected models, if the Mazak in a casting is not pure, it will deteriorate, and no amount of careful storage, handling etc will stop it. Conversely, as long as the casting material has been correctly prepared, it will last indefinitely as attested by the many 60 year old Hornby Dublo models with sound castings.

[JSpencer]

All Mazak castings will eventually become brittle and corrode. You certainly cannot stop the process, but you can slow it down. I have a 1950s Dublo 4MT starting to show minor corrosion. Wrenn chassis have been known to become stiff and stuck and need to be released.

 

It should be noted that the class 31 corrosion, Bachmann N class running plate, handrail knobs and buffers corrosion and now these bogies have all happened within the first 10 years of there lives so a major problem. Remember we are not supposed to have lead in anything these days especially toys yet it is lead that accelerates the rot.

[robmcg]

This reminds me of the issues I faced in keeping 1950s and 60s British cars on the road...! Minis and Jaguars mostly.

 

Must check some of my older 2000-2008 Hornby Bulleids, they are such prized models. They are all stored in factory boxes usually but not always with factory tissue paper around them, in a spare bedroom, dry climate, 10C-25C.

[Dunsignalling]

I haven't inspected my whole fleet yet but my oldest, (originally) Clan Line, Wilton and Tangmere are unblemished.

 

The fact that some newer versions are affected supports the OP's view that the issue relates to when the model was made rather than what it is (i.e. the quality of Mazak varies). 

 

The factory isn't likely to make up (or buy in) a separate batch of Mazak for each run of castings, so other locos produced around the same time as the affected Bulleids (probably with catalogue numbers close to them) are therefore likely to develop the same problem.

 

John

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

The factory isn't likely to make up (or buy in) a separate batch of Mazak for each run of castings, so other locos produced around the same time as the affected Bulleids (probably with catalogue numbers close to them) are therefore likely to develop the same problem.

 

John

That is probably not the case.

It is more likely how the metal was used on a particular run, rather than a problem with the original bought in metal itself.

A certain percentage of scrap metal is re-melted and used again during a run of die casting.

Too much scrap or contaminated scrap can lead to problems.

It would be of interest to get one of these pox ridden castings checked for faults and a chemical analysis done.

As I am retired I no longer have the facilities to do this.

Bernard

[bob hughes60]

The relevant service sheet is 249E and a replacement bogie is listed as X4018 for your model. A quick google shows stock with spares suppliers in the UK.

Don't know if Ged at Melbourne Model Raceway can help. I have got older Hornby spares from him sent back to UK, very obliging chap.

Hope this helps.

Bob Hughes

[roundhouse]

I have over 30 Bullied (mainly light) Pacific's  from various production runs and when checked last year they all appeared to be fine. Virtually all of them are stored in their original boxes in a centrally heated room.

 

I will try and check some of them again soon just in case anything has started to happen to them since the last check.

 

Ian

[Dunsignalling]

That is probably not the case.

It is more likely how the metal was used on a particular run, rather than a problem with the original bought in metal itself.

A certain percentage of scrap metal is re-melted and used again during a run of die casting.

Too much scrap or contaminated scrap can lead to problems.

It would be of interest to get one of these pox ridden castings checked for faults and a chemical analysis done.

As I am retired I no longer have the facilities to do this.

Bernard

So the problem could be completely random?

 

While I have the chance to ask someone who knows, is it possible for contamination to be localised within a mix, leading to an assortment of good and bad castings being produced?

 

The thought also occurs that, in anticipation of several runs of WCs, A4s or whatever, larger numbers of bogie castings might have been made "for the parts bin".

 

If either or both were the case the distribution of any dodgy ones could be fairly haphazard. 

 

John

[Jenny Emily]

So the problem could be completely random?

 

While I have the chance to ask someone who knows, is it possible for contamination to be localised within a mix, leading to an assortment of good and bad castings being produced?

 

 

 

I have a pre-war Hornby Dublo southern brake van that has three wheels that have crumbled because of Mazak rot, and a fourth that is still fine. This might suggest that it is possible for different castings from the same metal batch could be okay, depending on how well the molten metal got mixed before casting.

[dagrizz]

I have a pre-war Hornby Dublo southern brake van that has three wheels that have crumbled because of Mazak rot, and a fourth that is still fine. This might suggest that it is possible for different castings from the same metal batch could be okay, depending on how well the molten metal got mixed before casting.

 

It could depend on how parts are stored in the factory. If wheels were kept in, say, a lin-bin or similar, then wheels from different batches could get mixed up. 

 

Graham

[robmcg]

Can anyone give an update on the degree to which metal deterioration has occurred in the front bogies of Hornby Bulleid Pacifics?

 

Is it very common? And are there ways to store these models to reduce the chance of problems apart from preferably dry room temperature, as well perhaps as luck... ?

 

I am a bit nervous about buying second-hand models because of the likelihood of damage, even if spare bogies are available.

[Dunsignalling]

Can anyone give an update on the degree to which metal deterioration has occurred in the front bogies of Hornby Bulleid Pacifics?

 

Is it very common? And are there ways to store these models to reduce the chance of problems apart from preferably dry room temperature, as well perhaps as luck... ?

 

I am a bit nervous about buying second-hand models because of the likelihood of damage, even if spare bogies are available.

Post 14 from Roundhouse puts it into context and I have almost as many, with none showing any signs of deterioration so far. 

 

I wonder if the problem might be caused by inadequate mixing of the molten ingredients during a particular casting run. That would result in haphazard distribution of defective components within particular batches of models, with others unaffected. That seems to match the reported issues quite well. 

 

The chemical reaction that affects sub-standard mazak seems to be exacerbated (if not triggered) by damp and extreme temperature variation.

 

One has no idea how a pre-owned item has been stored but the proportion of affected models is evidently very small with replacement bogies available and easy to fit. It's not put me off second-hand purchases but I appreciate that your location means you are buying 'blind'.

 

I suggest buying a couple of spare bogies just in case. The corollary of Murphy's law states that If you have prepared to deal with a problem, it will not arise!

 

John  

[roundhouse]

I have checked a few of mine in the last few weeks but still plenty more to look at.

 

One of them that I have checked was stored in kitchen tissue for osem years  (bought secondhand so no box). This one is fine with no signs of deterioration along with the other few that werestored differently.

 

All mine are in a room in a centrally heated house.

 

Ian

[robmcg]

...

 

I suggest buying a couple of spare bogies just in case. The corollary of Murphy's law states that If you have prepared to deal with a problem, it will not arise!

 

John

Thanks, I may well do that, but don't expect any problems, as dry room storage seems to reduce if not eliminate the dangers.

Thankyou also Roundhouse.

[sandwich station]

An update from my end on the matter.

 

I've now checked every loco I have for any sort of Mazak fatigue or corrosion (some 400 odd loco's) and can report I have found no more than the two reported earlier here. This ranges from early 50's Triang Princess's, Jinty's etc, right up to locos bought  the earlier part of this year. I paid particular attention to locos I bought around the same time as the southern Pacifics.

 

I believe it has something to do with contamination of the molten liquid or the mix percentages not being right when casting and not a general deterioration of the metal over time, as if that was the case, I would have 30ish locos from the 50's alone (55-60 years old) which live wrapped in newspaper being just a pile of deteriorated scrap.

 

I was advised to send Simon Kohler an email letting him know, to which he thanked me and passed the information on to the appropriate department at Hornby. He also asked me for my address and promptly sent me 2 new bogies F.O.C. to Australia.

 

So for that Simon, thank you very much and I wish you all the best with your new project.

 

[Xerces Fobe2]

More proof that the Hornby empire is crumbling and the guy who was on top of these issues has gone.

 

XF

[jjb1970]

I dunno about that really, for all Hornby's problems mazak rot has affected all model manufacturers that use it (I had a Roco Re460 with a rotten chassis), not good for sure but I think if Hornby are to be condemned then so should all model manufacturers that have suffered from it.

[PanzerJohn]

Just found my blue Canadian Pacific has bogie rot too!