51E Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Having picked up a 3 coach set of Mallard models SECR 51' Birdcage coaches I'm wondering if I could ask for some help. I'm having trouble finding any information on these sets. I'd like to know if they lasted like the longer 60' sets till BR times and what colour they should be? Were they green or did they become vermilion? I know of one set that was converted to a pull-push set 661 Thanks in advance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeandnel Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Hello 51E Only info I have is that PP set 661 was on the Bexhill West branch from 1942-1958 and was withdrawn in Oct 1961 I have painted my coaches in the vermillion livery but the livery you use is totally dependant on the period you are modelling I model pre-grouping. Michael dJS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
51E Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Have you quoted the correct length? I had been under the impression that the shorter-than-60ft coaches were 54ft long (as per IoW). These certainly went through the range of colours following nationalisation - SR Green, BR "Red", BR Green. Well it says 51' on the boxes... Saying that I've also read somewhere about 50' and 54' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
51E Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Hello 51E Only info I have is that PP set 661 was on the Bexhill West branch from 1942-1958 and was withdrawn in Oct 1961 I have painted my coaches in the vermillion livery but the livery you use is totally dependant on the period you are modelling I model pre-grouping. Michael dJS. Hi Michael Yes I'd read that set 661 was on the Bexhill West branch although I've not seen any pictures of the set. I have a model of set 660 and model late 40's to mid 50's Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeandnel Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Hello 51E Further in from Gould's book 'Carriage stock of the S.E.C.R. states that set 661 comprised of carriages 3433 and 5301 and were converted to push-pull mid 1942. Set 660 comprised carriages 3505 and 5473. All would have been S.R. green at the time Michael dJS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 You really need Bogie Carriages of the SECR by David Gould (Oakwood Press ISBN 0 85361 455 5) I'm quoting from it as I'm not an SECR expert. Trio A sets were built in 1909, comprising a 50' 1" composite brake, a 54' 1" composite lavatory and a 50' 1" composite brake lavatory. Sets were broken up from the late 1930s and coaches were mostly withdrawn or converted to departmental stock early 1950s. Trio C sets were Composite Brake Lavatory, Composite Lavatory, Third Brake all 60' 1". Introduced 1912, sets were broken up from the late 1940s (mainly to create pull-push sets) with the last set withdrawn in 1959. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Just realised there was a livery question as well. I doubt if any Trio A sets were pained maroon. Trio C sets would have become maroon, but were they repainted green? I would assume not, unless anyone can find photographic evidence. Note I am only considering Trio sets, not pull-push rebuilds. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If I remember correctly from the thread on the Bachmann Trio-C sets, none of them were painted in the 1956 BR Green. Which is why Bachmann aren't doing a BR green version. All the pictures of the shorter sets in BR days show them in Malachite green (probably revarnished many times), which seems to suit them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
51E Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Many thanks for the information guys. I've found a couple of pictures of a 50' Brake on the KESR in the early 50's and it looks to be green. I've not managed to find a picture of a 3 coach set yet though. Looks like i'll have to get a copy of Gould book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Apart from anything which might have been incorporated in one of the Long Sets used on Hop Pickers' Friends specials (whose formations changed from year to year and seem to have gone largely unrecorded), two very different ex-SECR 50-ft birdcage brakes seem to have been used on the former K&ESR line in BR days (up to closure in 1953). The first was S6638S, a former slip brake composite to diagram 426, with two third class and two first class compartments and, nominally, two lavatories, one being accessible by each class, which I suspect were actually locked out-of-use, plus a small brake van with full-height birdcage and a single droplight window in the end. This carriage certainly had full BR lettering and, judging by the fact that the painted number was at the right hand end of each side, was probably in BR unlined crimson. The second was S3291, a brake third to diagram 147, with five compartments and a large brake van with the later, reduced-height, birdcage. This carriage was still in SR malachite with SR-style painted number (but with an "S" prefix, but not suffix, added) and lettering, although "SOUTHERN RAILWAY" had been painted out (or possibly not applied if it had been repainted in early 1948); the only BR-style lettering was a tiny "BT" in the bottom corners of the sides. It is probable that S6638S was allocated to the ex-K&ESR line immediately after it had been repainted (late 1949/50?) and was then replaced by S3291 sometime in 1951. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I believe that the following three 50 foot carriage "A" sets lasted into the BR period: 530, 531, 533, 536, 537, 539, 540, 541, 563, 564 and 565 most being withdrawn in 1951 or 1952 as the delivery of BR Standard 3-sets started a cascade in which Maunsell corridor 3-sets ultimately replaced them. Many of these are likely to have remained in SR malachite until withdrawal but, almost certainly, some would have been repainted into lined or unlined BR crimson. Set 539, all three vehicles of which went into "long set" 901 in 1953, was perhaps the most likely candidate for crimson livery, as the "long set" was almost certainly crimson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 DS1967 at Brighton Loco in 1962. Not sure of coach length - Thanks to Ian D Nolan for the picture. http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/11689486743/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 DS1967 was originally a 45 foot 3-compartment "birdcage" brake third to SR diagram 145. It was built for the SECR by the Metropolitan RC & W Co. at its Saltley (Birmingham) works, being delivered as no. 2303 in August 1900 when it was vacuum braked but Westinghouse piped. During late 1918/early 1919 it was one of a number of similar passenger vehicles used as a goods train brake van on short workings within the London area of the SECR as a result of a shortage of purpose-built goods train brake vans; it was fitted with altered lamp irons for this use. It was repainted into SR green in January 1927 and renumbered 3257. It was withdrawn from passenger service in April 1944 and converted to a Mess & Tool Van for use in breakdown trains. The intermediate partitions between the three passenger compartments were removed as part of this conversion, two of the doors each side being sealed up and the third fitted with a handrail. The footboards on the bogie at the non-brake end were altered - it is possible that this was done by reversing the bogie although this would have involved altering the brake linkages. It was probably finally withdrawn in 1963/64 and replaced by a conversion of an ex-LSWR/SR Ironclad brake. It was almost certainly painted vermillion at the time of the photograph although that livery usually looked brighter than it appears here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris45lsw Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Only just seen this topic. The Blacksmith birdcage 3-set (in 7mm) I once had comprised 50ft BT(5) diagram 147 / 51ft CL(2/4) diag 310 or 311 (?) / 46ft BC(2/4) diag 422. These were trio sets 'B'. Only two of these made it to BR days & these were sets 522 (3291 / 5370 (diag 310) / 6615) and 525 (3284 / 5389 (diag 311) / 6617).. They were disbanded in 1951 but most coaches saw further use in 'long' sets though 3291, as mentioned previously, had a spell 'loose' on the K&ESR. None of these coaches were repainted red. Chris Knowles-Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wollastonblue Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 In light of the Graham Farish announcements of these coaches in N Gauge. I wondered if anyone knows how far west these coach sets went within the Southern Region. Would they have made down into Dorset say? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I don't think the 3 coach sets ventured off the Eastern and Central sections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 In light of the Graham Farish announcements of these coaches in N Gauge. I wondered if anyone knows how far west these coach sets went within the Southern Region. Would they have made down into Dorset say? For correctness this thread is about the 51' Birdcage stock whilst the stock being produced by Bachmann in 00 and Graham Farish in N are the longer 60' versions. Saying that the comment about them generally not venturing off the Eastern and Central sections still stands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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