BR(W) H39 Dining First & H36 Composite Dining Saloon (dining pair)

[70021 Morning Star]

This thread is about modelling British Railways (Western Region)'s 1950s-60s 'dining pair'. These were GWR-designed, and used by BR(W) well after Mk1-based restaurant cars had been introduced on the Western Region.
 
My personal interest is that I am modelling 92220 Evening Star when she had her 'three days of glory' hauling BR(W)'s flagship Paddington express passenger named train services, the Red Dragon and Capitals United Express. 27th & 28th June, and 1st July, 1960. Additionally, I am modelling 70021 Morning Star, when she was (briefly) based at Canton shed, throughout 1957 and early 1958, when the same 'dining pair' was also used.
 
SUGGESTIONS FOR PARTS & MATERIALS
If you're thinking of modelling the rebuilt* H39 Restaurant First & H36 Composite Dining Saloon, the 'dining pair', seen on the British Railways Western Region's Capitals United Express circa 1960, then the following resource list may interest you.

*Note: The original GWR designed H39 & H36 dining pair had smaller, non opening windows. When the Great Western Railway was merged into British Railways (Western Region), these coaches were 'rebuilt' with larger Mk1 type opening windows according to diagrams H39 & H36. However, I do note that the examples of the dining pair at Severn Valley Railway have the H39's kitchen end windows positioned slightly higher than is shown in the H39 blueprint. I'm assuming that, in practical implementation of the design it was found to be easier to fit these windows flush with the roofline, as opposed to how they're illustrated in the paper blueprint (but that's a matter for conjecture and further research), and something to consider if using the Comet H39 kit as the basis of your modelling of the rebuild Restaurant First.

Comet offers a complete metal parts kit for creating the H39 & H40 pairings usually seen. Note, that this thread covers the H39 & H36 pairing, so I'm still looking for suitable parts for the H36 conversion. As a complete kit** purchase, the H39 kit (Pt. No. W28A) is priced at £47.50 and comes complete with everything you need except the wheels and connectors, or they will supply just the etched sides (Pt. Nos. W28AS) at £10.50, and you fabricate or purchase things like gas bottles, recessed door handles, catering car roof vents, etc., separately. (Prices correct at January 2015.) Usefully, the W28A product description, on the Wizard website, contains a complete list of all the parts I'll need for creating the rebuilt H39 Restaurant First.

My base coach is a Bachmann 60' Collette. ...as I was originally intending to work in plastic. This would require a cut-and-shunt of the carriage sides, as well as bending the otherwise correct carriage ends (heatgun) into the bow-end shape. However, you could buy a pair of bow-ends (various suppliers) if you're not skilled at reshaping plastic.

Glazing will use acrylic flush-glazed windows. Various suppliers.

Other information will be added to this section as the build progresses...
 
  
 
An interesting feature of these dining facilities is that, on GWR's amalgamation into British Railways, the windows were converted to the Mk1 type. This is something I hope to show in my models of 9617 & 9586.
 
Examples of H39 and H36 designs are preserved and operated, with restaurant service,  on the Severn Valley Railway. (Pictured: left, H39/H36 pair at SVR & right H39.)

 

CORRECTION previously posted picture of Severn Valley Railway's 'dining pair' was the H39 and an H40 (not H36). Current image is the rebuilt H39 Restaurant First. I'll post a correct image of the rebuilt H36 Composite Dining Saloon as and when I find one. 

OTHER DINING COACHES: you may also be interested in the H33 thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92858-h-33-restaurant-carriage/

 
Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

USEFUL CONTRIBUTIONS
 
The following contributions were made when this project was being discussed on the H33 thread. I'm reproducing them here, to keep the discussion together and as a resource for other modellers.

Taz, and others, suggested that the comet brass sides might be useful. Product code is W29b at http://www.cometmode...atpic.php/8/640

Mike (Ressaldar) said, "I'm doing a similar conversion as you, but in 7mm and using the JLTRT H33 (with modified window openings) kit as the 'basis' of to produce my model of the S&T Inspection Saloon. I attach a photo of a window on the preserved Inspection Saloon and a set showing the slow progress of the conversion of the sides, which may be of help to you." He includes some photos on the H33 thread.

Clive recommended "All your livery questions should be answered by this booklet http://www.barrowmor...teringIssue.pdf

Chrisf, who has been my guide on another thread, comments, "In between spasms of preparing for a holiday I have been investigating WR named train diners. The gist of my findings, from lots of issues of the Railway Observer, is that chocolate and cream livery for titled trains began with the summer timetable of 1956 - Cornish Riviera, Torbay Express and Bristolian first, others later and with the Red Dragon being re-equipped at the end of 1956. At first all WR named trains used GWR design catering cars for the simple reason that there was very little to choose from as regards BR standard stock. All the WR had at this time was the prototype RU W1900, five RFs W301-5 working with RSOs and two full kitchen cars W80007/8 forming triplets with a RFO [W7/8] on one side and a RSO on the other. The triplets were only suitable for high demand full meal service.

From the end of 1957 the production RUs arrived and gradually took the place of GW cars. The Bristolian had to wait some more years for its RB and the Red Dragon did not get its BR design dining pair [W301+W1009] until the end of 1961. During 1957 its regular dining pair was recorded as 9617+9586 and at the end of 1961 9619+9586. There was some pick-and-mixing and other stock must have been substituted from time to time but the upshot is that the Dragon had a dining pair: arriving in London at 1 pm and leaving at 5.55pm called for nothing less. There were, I think, only five H33s [the diagram attempted by Hornby] and whether any of them sported BR choc-cream is something which I cannot answer yet. I also need to look up which were the diagrams of the Dragon's pair.

As for how to model the Dragon and its diners, it is not my place as a fumbling coach builder to advise and it is of course much easier to give advice than it is to take it but a quote from Sir Humphrey Appleby may not be out of place: "If you are going to do this damn silly thing, do not do it in this damn silly way". I would say, subject to the previous sentence, that brass sides are by far the best way of producing a rebuilt H33 but far better to devise a way of producing the dining pair. There, I fear, there may not be such a ready solution".

So, my understanding is that:
• 70021's Morning Star's 1957-58 Red Dragon formation should include the dining pair 9617+9586.
• 92220's Evening Star's June 1960 named express runs could reuse the above dining pair on the Red Dragon (& use a BR RU on the Capitals United, with the coach formation supplied in the famous message #30 on the WR Carriage Roof Destination Boards thread).

Adrian contributes, "9617 is an H39 Restaurant First, 9586 is an H36 Composite Dining Saloon. The H33s were self-contained Restaurant Composites and were intended for cross-country trains and so wouldn't normally have been on an express. There were only 4 of them (and five more of the very similar, but flat-ended H25s). Hornby modelled the H33 because it was the same size as the other coaches they did at the time so that some of the components could be reused (underframe, ends, bogies).

The windows on the catering cars were rebuilt either just pre-war or just post-war. By 1957-58 they were coming to the end of their lives".

Which Mike Coach Bogie) elaborates, as follows, "The rebuild with mk1 style windows began in the late 1930's by Swindon and continued after the war with private contractor Hamptons with all surviving vehicles having replacement windows, new interiors and revised cooking equipment. By the early 1950's all had been refurbished.

As Adrian states, by 1957 the H33 days were numbered. Two were gone by 1959, one had been rebuilt as a buffet car (became an engineers saloon in 1960) and the fourth lasted a little longer until 1961. Just because they were still in capital stock, does not mean they were being used. Old Oak would keep them as spares. As ChrisF states by 1957 the WR was being allocated mark 1 catering vehicles and original GWR designs were kept in reserve".

Chrisf, again, "... CooperCraft sell [sometimes] the windows from their Mk 1 kits".

Adrian gives some good advice on reference books, "anyone responding to questions about GWR coaching stock is likely going to refer to one of five books, so having copies of them is very useful, even when asking questions on the forum. Basically there are the 4 volumes of Russell (Vol 1, Vol 2, Appendix 1 and Appendix 2 -If you are modelling post war you can probably get away without Vol 1), and Harris. See the top entries in the coaches section here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nolitt.html".
Karhedron suggested suitable coaches for conversion, "The H38, H39 and H40 are all bow-ended vehicles. As such, the easiest place to start might actually be with a Hornby B-set coach and then attach Comet etched sides. The size and shape of the vehicles are broadly correct although there are plenty of details you can add if you wish to do so".

And, finally, Mike (Coach Bogie) warns, "Beware! Three H39, nos 9611/2/3 were converted in September 1953 into buffet cars to a new diagram H.59".
 
 
 
That wraps it up for previously contributed material. Do pay a visit to the H33 thread for the full story so far...
 
 
Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

My starting point for the H39 remodelled Restaurant RU is Bachmann's 34-051 Collett 60' GWR S-Button.
 
If I've understood correctly, this is already very close to the H36 Composite Dining Saloon which was the second vehicle in the 'dining pair'.
 
From photographs of the Severn Valley Railway H39 and plans of this pairing, it appears I'll need to cut-and-shunt the side panels to get the correct RU configuration. Then I'll need to look at the roof and the bow ends.
 
Yes, it would be nice to start with the Comet sides, mentioned above, but unless any of you feel like sponsoring this project, it's going to have to be a 'budget job', which may be revisited in the future. What would be really good, is if someone were to (simultaneously) do the Comet model based version, and compare notes. Any takers?
 
Meanwhile, the immediate objective is to produce a 'reasonable representation' of the dining pair - at least, better than anything that's available as RTR - that'll sit comfortably with 92220 Evening Star and 70021 Morning Star hauling the Red Dragon and Capitals United Express passenger services of 1957/8 and 1960. A more detailed, high quality version, will come later, but should also be discussed on this thread. So, here goes with a picture of the starting vehicle...
 
WANTED: a pair (or two pairs) of bow-end carriage ends. PM me, if you have anything or know of a supplier. Plastic will do, as I can modify as required.

Comet's superb brass-sided kit can be seen at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-24572-0-32216400-1418485084.png, while my starting point is pictured below. I've also added a defaced (copyright protection) partial section of the plans (which cover both vehicles), to show what's available from the books refereed to in posting #2 of this thread.
 
Rick

[Coach bogie]

The H36 was originally part of a three car set, which was also part of a matching train of 1929 stock train built for the Cornish Riviera and Torbay expresses.

 

As times changed, there was reduced need for all the seating and by 1932 the sets on the CRE and TE were replaced by the H39/40 pairs, mainly due to the extra weight of a separate kitchen car over the Devon banks. The H35/6/7 moved elsewhere, often seen on the Birmingham route.

 

The challenge to produce as a rtr conversion is the H36 along with matching H35/7 is the recessed doors and handles fitted as standard to 1929 stock. I only have original versions to illustrate but the main windows were all replaced by Mark 1 types b y 1952.

 

There is no difference in window layout between the H37 (all third diner) and the H36 (compo diner), only the internal layout differs. One H37 3rd diner, no 9590 was declassified in 1952 and became a third open.

 

These are all built from BSL/Phoenix kits with glue construction.

 

Moving images of H36 as built here at 16secs

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks Mike
That's really helpful

 

I'm now back home, so have a proper Internet connection. Yes, this is really useful.

 

Thanks again, 
Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

Any suggestions on appropriate donor vehicles for the coach ends on the H39 & H36 dining set?

 

Also, as I'm fairly new to railway modelling, can anyone enlighten me on why British Railways had First and Third carriages and dining cars, but no Second (later 'standard') class? We even see it on Composite coaches, which are often advertised as 1st & 3rd.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[Adrian Wintle]

Any suggestions on appropriate donor vehicles for the coach ends on the H39 & H36 dining set?

 

Also, as I'm fairly new to railway modelling, can anyone enlighten me on why British Railways had First and Third carriages and dining cars, but no Second (later 'standard') class? We even see it on Composite coaches, which are often advertised as 1st & 3rd.

 

Thanks,

Rick

 

Comet sells their bow-end castings separately.

 

There were originally three classes, but Second class was dropped early in the 1900s (except for specific situations like some boat trains), leaving first and third. This continued until BR rationalized into first and second in the '50s.

 

Adrian

[The Fatadder]

The only alternative I can think of would be the plastic ends from the Hornby h33/d95 etc, but ir would need recessing into the end of the coach rather than just gluing on. They would need to be reduced in width along the lines of the conversion I've done on my H33 to get them to fit properly I suspect

 

Otherwise I don't think it would be too difficult to scratch build from plastic sheet, gluing a flat section in the centre the width of the corridor connection, the curving some 20thou over the top

[chrisf]

The Hornby efforts are rather Maunsellesque and are best replaced, whether by Comet's product or by [whispers] scratchbuilding. 

 

Chris

[Karhedron]

Any suggestions on appropriate donor vehicles for the coach ends on the H39 H36 dining set?

 

I believe the H39 is the same basic bodyshell as the Hornby B-set coach. For an easy conversion, you could probably put Comet sides on a B-set donor body. You would then need to add details such as roof vents, underframe gas tanks and corridor connectors. The bogies should also be replaced although I believe that Hornby auto-coach bogies are roughly correct for this vehicle.

 

I think that the H36 is a rather different beast and you would probably need to go for a complete kit.

 

Out of interest, why an H36/39 pair? It would probably be easier to do an H39/40 pair which is more prototypical as this is how these dining pairs were built to run. The H39/40 pairing was more common and both vehicles could be built more easily using the B-set conversion method if you do not fancy building a complete kit.

[70021 Morning Star]

As always, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
 
Unfortunately, I've recently suffered an 'industrial injury' and am now classified as 'disabled'. So am not working, with lots of time for 'scratch building', but little money for Comet sides. So, until my health - and wealth - improve, the H39 & H36 'dining pair' will need to be a budget plastic build.
 
My particular interest is that I'm recreating 92220 Evening Star's famous excursions on the Capitals United Express; which she hauled between Paddington and Cardiff/ Swansea on just three occasions: 27th & 28th June, and 1st July, 1960. Grand Master, Chrisf, has kindly researched the likely coach formation, which included the H39 & H36 'dining pair'. So, as restaurant services revenue was a key earner for BR Western Region of the 1960s - including Evening Star being on record as having to delay its arrival at Paddington, to allow completion of Service on at least two of its up Red Dragon Cardiff-Paddington runs (up Red Dragon and down Capitals United Express) it's important I include these two coaches in the Capitals United Express portrayal.
 
[Master, I see references to the 'up' Capitals United but, more commonly, it's the 'down' Capitals United and the 'up' Red Dragon. Am I correct in thinking that Canton locomotives usually took the Red Dragon up to Paddington and did the return run with the down Capitals United Express? Albeit these are not the same formations masquerading under different names. And, am I correct that the same runs were made - Paddington-Cardiff, Swansea, Neyland, and Fishgate Harbour, without being 'named trains'; the names being applied to specific timetabled services?]
 
Interestingly, the coach ends on the Bachmann 34-100 60ft Collette, which is my base donor vehicle, look identical to the Comet ends other than they're not bowed. They also have the rather nice rubberized corridor connectors. So, I suspect, their removal, some reprofiling of the roof, and the application of a heat-gun to bow the end plates, may provide an acceptable result.
 
Severn Valley Railway have an example of the 'dining pair' (see photo, above), but I'm puzzled by the vertical alignment of the pair of kitchen Mk1 windows, as these are higher than the four Mk1 windows in the dining section of the H39 Restaurant Car. This is not how they're shown on the H39 design blueprint. So I'm wondering if some license was permitted when British Railways had the Mk1 type windows retrofitted to the old GWR dining pair? The question is whether to model my H39 'off plan' or to use the actual prototype positioning seen at SVR. I suspect the SVR prototype more reliably depicts how the winders were fitted in practice.
 
[UPDATE: Rodney Cooper, the expert carriage modeller, of Rocar Model Railways, observes that, "It soon turned out that photographs, then as now, are by far the most valuable resource material. Even works drawings are not that reliable as alterations were often made afterwards and the principal drawings not amended", which supports my conjecture that official blueprints were interpreted in the field.]
 
Correct modification of roof vents and attaching the correct bogies will come later (photo refs needed of roof ventilators positioning). Thanks, Karhedron, for the tip on Auto-Coach bogies. Fortunately, the blueprints do give details of the interior layout, so that should be relatively straightforward. I've now got the sides off the 60ft Collette and am about to cut-and-shunt the windows into their correct positions. Mike is kindly sending me his father's old Mk1 windows, so that'll give me the correct flush glazing. ...just hope my efforts pass muster with The Master :-)
 
Thanks, again, to everyone. Your assistance is greatly appreciated,
Rick

[chrisf]

Grand Master?  Hmm.  Did you know that the General Manager of the Western Region when Evening Star was named in March 1960 was Keith Grand?

 

Anyway!  The Canton diagrams were 8.0 am Cardiff - Paddington [up Capitals] returning 1,55 pm Paddington; and 10.0 am Cardiff - Paddington [up Dragon] returning 3.55 pm Paddington [down Capitals].  I'm not sure without looking it up but I think the down Dragon was also a Canton turn.  The other named trains to/from South Wales were the Pembroke Coast Express and the South Wales Pullman.  Given the times at which they left London Old Oak would have been responsible for power in the down direction at least.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Yes, I've changed my rmweb 'handle' to "70021 Morning Star"; as I thought my usual Internet forum handle of 'Rascally Bear' wasn't appropriate on this highly-professional forum.

 

70021 Morning Star had a very interesting history for a 'Britannia' Class 7 Standard Pacific, and is one of the locomotives I'm modelling.

 

Of course, my real name is still Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

COMET SIDES ONLY £10.50
 
Someone on the H33 thread just advised me that the Comet brass etched sides are only £10.50 as versus the complete carriage kits @ £47.50
 
Now that's very good news, resulting in an immediate Order for the Comet (code: W28AS) H39 sides.
 
One thing this does illustrate is a need to include a list of parts, prices, and options, at the beginning of these specialist threads. Otherwise, less knowledgeable modellers (me) won't have a clue about where to begin these projects. Especially pricing and complexity. I'll be adding this information to a new section in  one of the first two postings on this thread.

Rick

[MarkAustin]

COMET SIDES ONLY £10.50

 

Someone on the H33 thread just advised me that the Comet brass etched sides are only £10.50 as versus the complete carriage kits @ £47.50

 

Now that's very good news, resulting in an immediate Order for the Comet (code: W28AS) H39 sides.

 

One thing this does illustrate is a need to include a list of parts, prices, and options, at the beginning of these specialist threads. Otherwise, less knowledgeable modellers (me) won't have a clue about where to begin these projects. Especially pricing and complexity. I'll be adding this information to a new section in  one of the first two postings on this thread.

 

Rick

I agree. If you read US magazines, you'll see they automatically include a list of parts, and, often, tools required as well. I agree there's a problem here with the proliferation of standards (OO, EM, P4 etc), but it still strikes me as a good idea.

 

Mark A

[70021 Morning Star]

I've begun the process of describing what off the shelf parts are available, by editing posting #1 at the beginning of this thread. I'll continue these updates, so people interested in building their own 'rebuilt' H39 Restaurant First and H36 Composite Dining Saloon have a good insight into their options. Those who are then still interested can read through all of the helpful advice, and the storyline, of my attempts to recreate the 1960 dining pair of the Capitals United Express.
 
[briefly off topic, for my other project to depict 70021 Morning hauling the 1957-58 Red Dragon Express . Would the RU in that formation be the six-wheel bogie, i.e. 12 wheeled,  BR 68ft Restaurant Car (R4188C) that Hornby are about to release? And, as Hornby's new releases are often little different from older stuff available second-hand, can anyone advise me on what else is available, please?]

 

Finally, a big thank you to Mike for his surprise Christmas Presents! You'll be seeing these as the build gets underway. Thanks, Mike, you're a star!

 

Rick

[chrisf]

[briefly off topic, for my other project to depict 70021 Morning hauling the 1957-58 Red Dragon Express . Would the RU in that formation be the six-wheel bogie, i.e. 12 wheeled,  BR 68ft Restaurant Car (R4188C) that Hornby are about to release? And, as Hornby's new releases are often little different from older stuff available second-hand, can anyone advise me on what else is available, please?]

 

Rick

No.  That is an ex-LMS vehicle.  The catering pair in the Dragon were a GW kitchen first and GW dining second, like you are building, until the beginning of 1962 when BR equivalents were substituted.  The RU was in the Capitals.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks, Chrisf. If I've got it right - not still suffering the aftereffects of too much Sherry over Christmas - the RU in the Capitals United Express had been long replaced by the time of Evening Star's 1960s runs. So I only need the H39 H36 pair for both the 1957-58 Dragon and 1960 Capitals United.
 
Looking to the Composite Dining Saloon, Comet don't have the sides for the H36 diagram. They do have sides for the H40 diagram. And, from what few photo references I have available, the H36 and H40 carriage sides look identical. As it'll be next month before I've the funds to order my own copy of Russell's Appendix, would someone who has a copy please be kind enough to check whether this is correct? It sounds 'too good' to be true.

 

BRW, there's quite a nice piece about the 12 wheel RU on Western Region in Richard Woodley's book, "The Day of the Holiday Express". It explains that Western Region had huge reliance on revenues earned from their catering services.

 

Rick 

[chrisf]

Nearly right, Rick.  The Mk 1 RU in the Capitals arrived in 1957 when 1903 replaced 9560.  The GW pair in the Dragon, as I'm sure I have explained before, lasted until January 1962. 

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Chris,
You're right, of course: Post #29 on the H33 thread, agrees:
• 70021's 1957-58 Red Dragon formation should include the dining pair 9617+9586 [the subject of this thread]
• 92220's June 1960 named express runs could reuse the above dining pair on the Red Dragon (& use a BR Mk1 based RU on the Capitals United, with the coach formation you kindly supplied in your famous message #30 of the Coach Destination Boards thread.)
 
For completeness, albeit we're off topic discussing the Mk1 RU of the 1960 Capitals United Express, Message #30 says:
The Capitals United, 3.55 pm from Paddington, was at that time [1960-61] formed:

• Brake second, composite: Paddington to Neyland
• First, second, brake second: Paddington to Fishguard Harbour

Second Fridays only, second Saturdays excepted: Swansea to Carmarthen [main formation]

• Brake second, first, unclassed restaurant, open second, second, brake second: Paddington to Swansea.

(Just realised, Chrisf's research says, "second Friday only" and "second Saturdays excepted". In 1960, 27 & 28 June were the Monday & Tuesday, and 1 July was a first Friday. We didn't have the precise dates when Chris kindly looked up the likely formations. As these are the only dates when Evening Star is known to have hauled the Red Dragon and Capitals United Expresses, we're not quite home and dry with the those coach formations. Almost, but no teddybear!)

 
I'm thinking to use a Bachmann 39-245 to depict the Mk1 RU of Evening Star's 1960 Capitals United Express ?

 

I also hope someone will be kind enough to verify whether H36 and H40 side profiles are identical. Currently, until I get my paws on a copy of Russell's, I can only compare the Comet H40 sides with a couple of photographs of the Severn Valley Railway's rebuilt H36 Composite Dining Saloon, and my knowledge of coach design detail may not be sufficient to spot the differences.
 
Thanks,
Rick.

[70021 Morning Star]

The Comet sides have just arrived, yippee! So now I have the basic chassis (donor Bachmann 60' Collette), the Comet H39 etched sides, and Mike has generously donated some very nice bow-ends. Ready for the build?

 

Err, no, I was thinking. There was still that question about whether Comet are correct in modelling off the H39 diagram, or whether the blueprints were only treated as 'guidelines' when the rebuilt the Dining First with larger windows. (Altering the brass sides wasn't something I was looking forward to, but looked like a 'must be done'.) On the question of blueprint versus actual prototype, Rodney Cooper, the expert carriage modeller of Rocar Model Railways, states that his experience of carriage modelling suggests, "... photographs, then as now, are by far the most valuable resource material. Even works drawings are not that reliable as alterations were often made afterwards and the principal drawings not amended", which supports my conjecture that official blueprints were interpreted in the field.

 

Well, as it turns out, the Comet sides are accurate reproductions of the actual H39 prototype on the Severn Valley Railway. In their website pictures, the higher positioning of the kitchen end windows isn't clear. But, their actual carriage sides do accurately reproduce the differences in window height. So, well done Comet - Phew !  

 

I've also discovered that Phoenix Kits produce a kit for the H36. I'll give more details when they get back to me.

 

Meanwhile, I'm off to take a few photographs, and will edit this posting, with pictures, later today. See post #38.

 

Rick

[Coach bogie]

I've also discovered that Phoenix Kits produce a kit for the H36. I'll give more details when they get back to me.

 

Meanwhile, I'm off to take a few photographs, and will edit this posting, with pictures, later today.

 

Rick

 

The Phoenix kit is in as built condition. See image of my BSL/Phoenix build post 4 above.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Ah, of course, it's the rebuilt H36 that I need, and the Phoenix version has the original windows. Thanks, Mike. I did read your post with great interest, as it was most interesting to read about the history and origins of the H-diagram coaches.

 

Ok, so my H36 Composite Dining Saloon options are:

1. as a temporary representation, to modify the Bachmann 60' Collett, with the correct number of windows (borrowing one side of the one I'm using for the H39 Restaurant First, as well as blocking out the toilet windows), which will look almost right until I can sort something better;
2. if the Comet H40 sides are the same as the H36 sides (so frustrating not having Russell's books), I'll only need the pair of Comet H40 sides to complete the dining pair:
3. a full scratch build / conversion of the Composite Dining Saloon based upon a Bachmann 60' Collett.

The question is whether to go online now, and order a second-hand Russell, which will resolve the H36/40 question - and Russell is something of a 'must have' - or go for the temporary build until I can afford both Russell and whichever Comet sides? Heck, I need Russell for the H39 too. So, here goes, it is Appendix 2 that I need, is it not? (I'll go check what people told me on the H33 thread.)

 

Thanks

Rick

[Taz]

Rick,

 

You would struggle to make an accurate model of a H36 using the comet H40 sides. Although superficially similar the H36 were from the 1929 Cornish Riviera stock and were built to the maximum loading gauge and were wider than most other GW carriages. In this instance it meant the end doors of the H36 were recessed (similar to the later and much more famous centenary stock).

 

The H40 has conventional doors.

I'm guessing this might make converting from a Bachmann coach a bit of a headache as well.

 

Regarding the Russell books, the appendix volume 2 will give you the most pictures of the restaurant cars (vol 1 is general coaches and vol2 is specific duty coaches and brown vehicles).

I would also consider the pictorial record of GW coaches vol2 which although it has less photos has more technical information.

 

Certainly they are recommended for anyone with an interest in GW coaches.

 

EDIT: I just see I have repeated some of the prototype information already described by Mike above. Somehow I missed his post.

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks, Brian,

J. H. Russell's "A Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches: v. 2 : 1903-48" = ORDERED

Couldn't find an affordable copy of Appendix 2...

 

You say the H40 isn't 'recessed'. Ok, I know these coaches were built the the absolute maximum width, and so they couldn't have any protrusions, including door handles. But, if I created recessed door handles on the H40 sides, and fixed the sides at the scale 1-2mm wider width, would there be any other differences in the H36/H40 profile??  

 

Actually, making the recessed handles in the Bachmann would be relatively simple, as it's only plastic. You need to create a template and a router type mechanism for a hobby drill. But then, the resulting carriage would be at standard GWR width, not the wider Riviera stock width you mentioned earlier.

 

You mention the "Centenary Stock". Would any of those Comet sides sets make a starting point?

 

Rick