Hornby LMS Non-Corridor Coaches (Pre-Production samples)

[Brian Kirby]

The old Airfix/now Dapol non-corridors are Period 2 "Inter-District Stock", that is suburban style stock with loos in all vehicles, for cross-country or outer-suburban working. They are still worthy models, and in later years many were loose stock mixed with regular suburbans. It is possible to chop these up to create Period 2 regular non-loo suburbans, but it's hard work and needs plenty of extra donor compartment panels. I've converted plenty, but have sufficient now, i'll do some pics for comparison.     BK

[robertcwp]

How different are these from the Dapol ex-LMS suburbans, is it the same mould just with metal buffers, wheels and a bit more detailed painting or is this something different altogether ?

Different type of carriage. The Dapol, ex-Airfix, models were of 'Inter-District' stock which was intended for longer journeys and had lavatories in each carriage.  From the model quality point of view, the Hornby ones are better.

[coachmann]

How different are these from the Dapol ex-LMS suburbans, is it the same mould just with metal buffers, wheels and a bit more detailed painting or is this something different altogether ?

As different as a Triang Compound and a Bachmann Compound. Dapol coaches were a joke from the past. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Very nice indeed. Did this type ever operate in Scotland? I don't recall seeing them in any photographs.

Hi Jim

 

Yes,they did. Mainly on suburban trains in the Glasgow area. There were some 51 ft coaches of the same style They even were used in remote places like Ballachulish. It was rare for a whole train to be period III stock they would be mixed in with earlier coaches, BR Mk1 stock and even ex LNER non-corridor coaches.

 

Edit...whoops I meant 54 ft not 51 ft.

[Dunsignalling]

As different as a Triang Compound and a Bachmann Compound. Dapol coaches were a joke from the past. 

To be fair, when originally introduced by Airfix, circa 1980, they were some of the better r-t-r coaches on the market.

 

Hornby's efforts at that time consisted of a reasonable attempt at a couple of GWR types, the same coaches repainted green for the Southern, some half-baked also-rans on the same chassis that allegedly represented LMS and LNER prototypes and the old Tri-ang Mark 1s. They dated back to the mid sixties but were still better than the rest of their range.  

 

John

[coachmann]

I was merely answering a specific question.

[Leander]

From about 1955 I used to travel on Manchester Vic - Southport stopping trains and remember seeing '3' on suburban coach doors. Would these have been un-repainted LMS coaches?

 

Trevor

BR only identified First Class compartments, so the answer is 'Yes, probably'.

[Colin]

Are the old Airfix/Dapol coaches that bad? Obviously they've been left behind in terms of detail and finish and would need a fair bit of work to bring them closer to modern standards, but are there dimensional/basic shape issues of which I'm unaware?

[MikeParkin65]

Are the old Airfix/Dapol coaches that bad? Obviously they've been left behind in terms of detail and finish and would need a fair bit of work to bring them closer to modern standards, but are there dimensional/basic shape issues of which I'm unaware?

I don't believe they are 'that bad'. They successfully represent their prototype, are readily available and cost about a quarter of the new Hornby version. They won't suit the expert or the purist but if you want a 4 coach set for the price of one Hornby then they are the way to go.

[Brian Kirby]

To put things into context. there's about 35 years between the introduction of the Airfix/now Dapol LMS Period 2 "suburban with loos" coaches, and the brand new Hornby issue. When the Airfix first arrived they were hot stuff, today they don't compare with the equally hot new, albeit different design, Hornby LMS Period 3 "proper suburbans". The Aifix/Dapol are scale models of what they say on the tin, but are rather bereft of the finer details of full underframe brakegear, the bogies are a bit skinny, poor livery rendition on the Airfix in blue boxes, better on the latest Dapol, plus perhaps the biggest no-no, the "fish-tank" moulded glazing, which although nice and flush, has that unfortunate "mirrored-angle" effect. Having said that, you can make decent coaches out of them by adding parts, especially if on a budget, but the point is on the Hornby, everything is done for you. The Airfix/Dapol bodies also make excellent donors for etched brass side conversions, a large part of the Comet range was designed to make use of them (even some of the corridor stuff!), before they started offering complete metal kits as an alternative. Let's live and let live, i'll be keeping my old Air/Daps (and my Comet subs), as well as buying some new Hornbys. 

 

                                                                                          Cheers, Brian.

[Metr0Land]

The original Airfix were also 'design clever' of sorts, which helped them be a very attractive price on introduction.  Hardly any screws or glueing in the production process. In general the roofs, glazing and underframe all clipped together and interlocked making them quite strong for little hands to play with.  Old hat by today's standards, but they were a step change at the time IMHO apols if I'm taking this into the land of-

 

[MikeParkin65]

The thing is, if someone is dead keen to see his locos are accurately produced with full fat detail but doesn't give a crap about about the appearance of coaches, then Dapol will suit.

 

I am happy for my full fat loco's, purchased when prices were lower, to pull representative trains on the layout that I am still building. Given that Hornby haven't produced the livery I hoped for I'm quite content to use and even add to my Airfix\Dapols for the time being. Doesn't mean I don't care about the coaches, just means they aren't the priority at the moment.

 

The Aifix/Dapol are scale models of what they say on the tin, but are rather bereft of the finer details of full underframe brakegear, the bogies are a bit skinny, poor livery rendition on the Airfix in blue boxes, better on the latest Dapol, plus perhaps the biggest no-no, the "fish-tank" moulded glazing, which although nice and flush, has that unfortunate "mirrored-angle" effect.

 

Wills\Finecast 'Flush glaze' available for about £4 per coach - makes a significant improvement. I belleve there is also a LazerGlaze kit for a bit higher outlay.

[rembrow]

I am happy for my full fat loco's, purchased when prices were lower, to pull representative trains on the layout that I am still building. Given that Hornby haven't produced the livery I hoped for I'm quite content to use and even add to my Airfix\Dapols for the time being. Doesn't mean I don't care about the coaches, just means they aren't the priority at the moment.

 

 

Wills\Finecast 'Flush glaze' available for about £4 per coach - makes a significant improvement. I belleve there is also a LazerGlaze kit for a bit higher outlay.

 

I agree Mike, the Dapol/Airfix suburbans can be fettled to look much better. The Dapol recent versions have BR plain crimson livery, which Airfix never produced them in. I've 'improved' mine with 'Flushglaze' windows, scratchbuilt brake gear, dynamos from the spares box, cross girders from plasticard cut to size and Bachmann Stanier bogies to replace the skinny Airfix/Dapol bogies. Also had to move the battery box rear mouldings to the correct side (behind the battery box door moulding!!!) Have also done the same with the Dapol Stanier 60' corridor composite, as that type wasn't produced by Hornby.  

[Colin]

Thanks for the info, gents. I have a 3-set of the newer Dapol non-corridors from about 15 years ago IIRC in lined maroon; one of these days I'll do something about the odd lining (much too pale) and the rather sparse underframe detail. Keeping them away from my newer Hornby stock seems to be the way forward for now!

[Porcy Mane]

Because masking out the windows for painting is labour intensive and prone to errors.

Oxford commercials must think it's a viable (and profitable) solution as they are using the technique on some their more recent products such as the BMC training unit and Special Tuning transporter. I only noticed that the front nearside quarter-light could have been better masked after photographing it.

 

Personally I hope manufacturers keep away from producing 1 piece clear coach bodies as the masking would then be a real PITA for individuals that prefer repainting and weathering RTR coaches.

I'm quite happy with the type of glazing on the current Hornby coaches as with a little work it, can be improved reasonably easily.

Left compartment is standard and right compartment altered.

 

Porcy

[terry.ecmr]

I will be buying a couple of the Hornby coaches for use on 'Earl's Court'. They look excellent models.

 

However, I think it is all too easy to criticise older models when they have given many modellers years of good use.

 

I have used the Airfix/Dapol as the basis for many projects, including my ex LMS GEC EMU.

 

Attached are 3 pictures showing conversions using Airfix/Dapol coaches. (Sorry about the photo quality). All have been converted to non-lavatory and altered using my own resin castings or 'cut & shut' using parts from donor coaches. Roof alterations have also taken place plus all are flush-glazed and resprayed.

 

I've also created a push/pull coach. No photo on file for that!

 

If you want to buy a coach, take it out the box and put it behind a loco that's fine. Personally, my enjoyment is in detailing, weathering and, wherever possible, taking out my hacksaw and creating something a bit different.

 

As modellers I feel we are extremely lucky compared to a generation ago. More models, much better quality. But let's not 'rubbish' everything that went before.

 

Terry

'Earl's Court'

ecmr.webs.com

[26power]

Can you advise how you've done that?  Looks impressive.

 

Personally I hope manufacturers keep away from producing 1 piece clear coach bodies as the masking would then be a real PITA for individuals that prefer repainting and weathering RTR coaches.

I'm quite happy with the type of glazing on the current Hornby coaches as with a little work it, can be improved reasonably easily.

Left compartment is standard and right compartment altered.

Tson-Hby-Subs-Mar-Crims012EditSm.jpg

 

Porcy

[Porcy Mane]

Can you advise how you've done that?  Looks impressive.

Thanks.

 

The Wet & Dry Technique.

 

With the original glazing removed, snip or cut off 1 compartments worth of glazing. (Two large panes and 1 droplight pane combined.)

With some 400 grade wet & dry on a flat surface, abrasive side up, start abrading the compartment side of the glazing by moving the glazing in a circular motion using the pads of your fingers to keep an even pressure across the three panes. The wet and dry paper should be well wetted with water that has had tiny touch of soap or detergent added. (The soap prevents the W&D clogging with the removed plastic dust.)

 

The aim is to remove the locating step from the rear of the glazing and end up with three totally flat and separate panes. Keep checking the glazing regularly to ensure you are removing the step evenly across the rear of all three panes.

You will need to keep rinsing the glazing regularly to check your progress and you'll probably find it helps to keep rinsing the wet and dry paper as it's surprising how much plastic is removed and how quickly. Don't forget the soap after rinsing the wet & dry. I really do mean a smidgen. I find just dipping the tip of my finger in some liquid detergent is enough.

 

As you get towards removing the entire location step, start using progressively finer grades of wet and dry. I find I can go straight from 400 to 800 then for the last few thou of step removal 1200. Usually the pane will have separated from its surround before getting to the 1200.

 

If you've managed to scratch the rear (or front come to that) of any of your separate glazing  panes, rub the scratch out with 1200 grade wet and dry. Finally I polish the individual panes back to being transparent using a touch of T-Cut. (Or the more abrasive Solvol Auto-sol.)

The tooling is good enough for the now, individual panes to be a friction fit in their respective apertures but to secure I use Pacer canopy glue or Clear.

 

I hope that's understandable... Anybody that's ever sprayed cars with cellulose will be familiar with the process.

It's also a lot quicker to do it, than write about doing it.

 

hth

 

P

[Arthur]

 

That's amazing Porcy, so you're, essentially, 'polishing' off the back of the glazing panel to remove the lip thickness and leave the glazing as individual plug in windows.

 

How long, roughly, does it take to do one three window panel?

 

It looks really good.

[ianwales]

I will be buying a couple of the Hornby coaches for use on 'Earl's Court'. They look excellent models.

 

However, I think it is all too easy to criticise older models when they have given many modellers years of good use.

 

I have used the Airfix/Dapol as the basis for many projects, including my ex LMS GEC EMU.

 

Attached are 3 pictures showing conversions using Airfix/Dapol coaches. (Sorry about the photo quality). All have been converted to non-lavatory and altered using my own resin castings or 'cut & shut' using parts from donor coaches. Roof alterations have also taken place plus all are flush-glazed and resprayed.

 

I've also created a push/pull coach. No photo on file for that!

 

If you want to buy a coach, take it out the box and put it behind a loco that's fine. Personally, my enjoyment is in detailing, weathering and, wherever possible, taking out my hacksaw and creating something a bit different.

 

As modellers I feel we are extremely lucky compared to a generation ago. More models, much better quality. But let's not 'rubbish' everything that went before.

 

Terry

'Earl's Court'

ecmr.webs.com

 

Hi Terrry

 

Do you have any photos of the LMS GEC conversion please?

 

Ian

[Porcy Mane]

That's amazing Porcy, so you're, essentially, 'polishing' off the back of the glazing panel to remove the lip thickness and leave the glazing as individual plug in windows.

 

Exactly. Sort of "course polishing" to start of with.

 

How long, roughly, does it take to do one three window panel?

 

I've used the procedure for years. Probably the first time was when Replica started selling individual glazing units for their Mk 1 coach bodies but prior to Bachmann, I  also used it on Kitmaster Mk.1's. I soon learnt that Bachmann, Kitmaster & Replica Mk.1 window  apertures are all different sizes.

 

First time it's done take care....  and time, as you'll realise the critical point is when the last few remnants of the raised lip is being removed. That's why I do that with 1200 grade wet & dry.

 

With practice I found I could use courser w&d initially and I spent longer rinsing off the wet and dry to check progress that I did rubbing the glazing down.

 

I also found detergent better to use than soap as it has less tendency to froth making it easier to see how you are progressing.

 

I got it down to about 5 minutes for a 3 pane window unit but found that I could remove the whole lip with W&D and barely touch the rear face of the pane virtually eliminating the T cut phase.

 

I have to say it took virtually a full day to do a complete an eight compartment Thompson but a lot of that time was taken up installing the glazing, as I found it difficult to keep the individual panes parallel and equidistant from the coach face. (I should have made up a simple plasticard spacing jig.)

 

(I've also got add the proviso that I've got some pretty severe nerve damage in my hands and that slows things up considerably)

 

 

Mr Hanson may eventually introduce a Lazer glaze kit so, I guess if that happens, I'll then have that time versus money quandary.

 

It looks really good.

 

Thanks'

 

P

[Lochinvar]

We seem to veered off-topic a tad here. Suggest,Mods,either dropping "Hornby" from the heading of this thread,or creating one separately for discussing the merits,or otherwise,of the Airfix/Dapol offerings.

 

DR

[Clive Mortimore]

We seem to veered off-topic a tad here. Suggest,Mods,either dropping "Hornby" from the heading of this thread,or creating one separately for discussing the merits,or otherwise,of the Airfix/Dapol offerings.

 

DR

I think Porcy's comments on improving the windows as he has done to the Hornby Thompson coaches is very relevent to the new Hornby LMS coaches as they have the same design of glazing.

 

I think the new Hornby LMS non corridor coaches are wonderful. They cannot be compared to the Airfix ones as they are a different design of coach, not only in layout but also in construction, well that is what the Essery and Jenkinson books tell me.

[terry.ecmr]

A couple of pictures attached.

 

Constructed using Airfix/Dapol Suburban coaches. Cut into 'a million' pieces and glued back together again.

The Motor Coach is a scale 2ft longer, as per the real thing.

Ends are Comet LMS Driving Trailer ends, with the centre window filled in.

 

Always creates interest at exhibitions, although some people assume that it is some sort of Southern 3 rail set.

 

Terry

[SamTom]

Good news!

 

Though, after years of people complaining about slipping dates, will we now see a torrent of complaints about advancing dates?

 

And how will they adapt all those feeble date-related jokes ("When will the 2015 catalogue come out?" - "2016!").

 

Paul

The people who complain about delays are not necessarily the same people as those who don't want everything at once right now!

 

I find the photos of the new Hornbys quite stunning, and certainly favour the crimson; thanks for posting them. I can't afford them for now, and now I'm hoping I haven't already missed my chance, as has happened too often.